wayne,

I mix the 3:2:1 Combo Mix in a large wheelbarrow and then just scoop it in to the containers.

The Miracle Potting Mix will work fine. The amount of fertilizer in these bags is so small that it doesn't make any difference. Just a Marketing gimmick. Something like 0.11-0.14-0.08 NPK. Don't even worry about it.

Perhaps someone else can help you on the fertilizer application. Many who use buckets just add in a water soluble fertilizer like Foliage Pro.

Raybo

Thanks Raybo,

That answers my first 2 questions completly.

Would you still mix the lime into each container's (bucket's) top 3-4 inches? Or do it in the batch mix as well?

Wayne;

Be cautious with 5 gallon container mix; I have found the height versus width of most 5 gallon containers will cause some serious compression of the mix. .

Be sure to get something in there that will maintain some air space over time, not just the first 6 weeks.

Hopefully Raybo can chime in on that. I do like the 5gallon container in a container concept. If it ends up too dry- then top water some. If too wet, just take it out of the bottom container-- this is better than living with less than optimum moisture in the mix.

Do give serious thought to the trellis/cage situation; the narrow opening of the 5 gall container gives challenge to keeping a the pot steady with a 5 foot tall heavily laden plant while in another 3-5 gallon bucket with water.

After trying about 6 different container methods, the 5gall. bucket concept is one of the top winners on payback vs investment.

One guy at the local farmers market is using several dozen of these.

D

col_sprg_maters, thank you for the advice.

Do you have any tips on a cage/trellis design? I was thinking of simply getting a larger cage and inserting it into the bucket.

I've done the same thing, Wayne. Large cage inserted down into the bucket - works fine so far with a 4ish foot tall Bonnie Best growing in it.

Correct me if I'm wrong, col_sprg_maters, but I thought that the whole point of the 3:2:1 mix was to ensure it stayed looser than your average mix. Just enough bark fines and perlite in there to make it happen... I think. :)

Ray or someone

I have searched and I know its me but just what is Raybo's 3-2-1 mix consist of?

Charlie

For Raybo's 3-2-1 you can go to his EarthTainer construction guide. At the bottom of the PDF there is a "Tweaks" For The Experts.

http://earthtainer.tomatofest.com/pdfs/EarthTainer-Construction-Guide.pdf

Thanks again to Raybo,

Here is a link that might be useful: Raybo's EarthTainer PDF

This ratio of 3 parts Potting Mix, 2 parts Decorative Groundcover Bark, and 1 part Perlite is what I have found works best in SWC applications - be it EarthTainers or EarthBoxes. Note that there are other 5:1:1 mixtures that do well in top down, conventional watered containers. Be sure not to confuse the two types of container architectures.

Raybo

Wulfe - the 3:2:1 is a modification of the 5:1:1 mix. It's not designed to stay looser, rather it's designed to avoid "perched water". It's a physics thing and there is lots of information on the site about it. The reason it's bad it because it keeps the mix too wet in the root zone - that limit oxygen which the roots need and it also can contribute to root rot.

But, the 5:1:1 doesn't wick very well in a container. As Raybo said, it works better when you water from above. So, Raybo figured out that if he added some peat to the bark that it would allow the water to wick, but still prevent the perched water and not stay as wet and provide more oxygen.

I've had excellent results in my tomato bucket SWCs this year using a 3:2:1 mix of Dr. Earth Potting Mix, Fafard Aged Pine Park, and Pearlite. The Dr. Earth is expensive ($12 for 2 cu ft), but very high quality stuff. The Dr. Earth has some pine bark and pearlite in it, and the Farard aged pine bark is more composted that what Raybo uses, so I think it balances out.

I used straight Miracle Grow Potting Mix last year and the mix stayed way too wet, but I've had poor results with it in almost everyplace I've used it (in ground, containers, winter sowing, seedlings). Even amended it performed very poorly, so much so that I suspect contamination of some kind. Many folks use it with great results, but it is made in different places depending upon the region.

The Lowes house brand 'Sta-Green' potting mix is less expensive than the MG and I had no problems with it.

For support in buckets, I mostly use the Heavy duty cages sold by Lowes (same ones that Raybo uses in the Earthtainer). I have a couple of refinements that help make the setup very sturdy. First, I make a 7 inch square template (paper is fine). The corners of the square line up with the legs of the cage. When drilling holes the bottom of the soil bucket, I mark the corners of the square and keep a small area solid near each mark to give the legs a platform to rest on:
{{gwi:14822}}

The fill pipe hole goes exactly in between two of template marks.

Then for the lid, I make the fill pipe hole, then use it as a guide for the template to drill holes for the legs:
{{gwi:46039}}

The fill pipe acts a guide to line up the little platforms in the soil bucket with the leg holes in the lid. As long as you keep the fill pipe straight, everything lines up.

I have not had any stability problems with this setup on hard fairly level surface until I add a second cage on top and the plants get big, then they need some extra stability.

Sorry the pics and explanation aren't that great, I really need to make some guides for these things.

ferretbee,

Nice looking setup. If the plants end up being top heavy and prone to tipping over, you can use a small eyebolt into the siding on the wall to tie the cages to, and keep them from leaning over and falling.

Raybo

Ferretbee, nice job. I also like to use a full bucket in a bucket.

Is just that small amount a string enough to wick to top of bucket? I have used the usual cup-like wicking device and even a piece of capillary mat that the mix contacts but string would be easier and cheaper. (I have used string on very small container but never something like 5 gallon.)

I have experimented this year using wicks instead of the usual wicking chamber. The wicks are made from a Rayon mop head (Al Tapla recommends these for wicks in top watered containers too). For most of my tomatoes in buckets, 3 or 4 of these wicks seems to be best, but I think some of them could use a couple more when the plants are big and there are a lot of high temps. I do prefer to start off using these as top watered containers until the plants get well established. Once established, I add a ring of fertilizer and add the bucket lid mulch cover and cage. The lids have a slit from the center so they can be put on even after the plant is pretty big. I did have to add more wicks to my cucumbers SWC buckets (from 4 to 8), and they could probably still use a couple more, and that's even with a better wicking mix than the tomatoes. I have several 18 gallon tote type SWCs with wicks and found that 5 wicks is too little for them, but 7 to 9 seem to work fine.

I also have some SWC buckets that use wicking cups, but use EngineeredGarden's method which only uses a single 7/64 inch hole in the wicking chamber.

I'm not certain yet which setup is better. The wicks are easy, and offer the ability to adjust by removing or adding wicks. They also help wick water away when using as top-watered containers early on. The wicking cups may offer an advantage of more even moisture during high heat, but I'm far from being certain about that.

Also of note is that when using 5 gallon buckets for both the soil chamber and reservoir, I use the upper half of a third bucket to raise up the soil chamber and increase the reservoir to almost 2 gallons. With big plants and high heat, they require refilling every 2 or 3 days.

Many of my SWC buckets use a 3.5 gallon in a 5 gallon, which also gives a reservoir of almost 2 gallons. I have not had any problems growing tomatoes in these, however the plants are a bit smaller than their 5 gallon counterparts. In fact, it's been really interesting to see the progressive size of plants depending on the size of their container. I like the 3.5 gallon units for smaller tomatoes, peppers, and eggplant. I used them for my early tomatoes (Bloody Butcher and Stupice) since they were easier to move around as the weather dictated.

I think another one of the keys to my SWC success this year is that I add a half or quarter strength liquid fertilizer to the water reservoir once a week (been using mostly Foliage Pro).

Thanks for the suggestion Raybo, but I don't think the landlord would like me drilling into the building. Luckily, I have the double caged tomatoes by the porch and garage which provide plenty of anchor points.

Here's some more of my SWC buckets from 7-29:
{{gwi:46040}}

The orange one in front is a Rutgers with a wicking chamber and a single 7/64 with hole. It sounds crazy, but it works.

I've had to do just the opposite with buckets down here in Zone 10 Florida, it's just too hot and the bottom water gets stagnant very quickly in such a small container, so I've had to drill holes at the bottom of the bottom buckets and use the wicking cup to draw water out of the soil mix instead of into it, this has worked much better for me.

Regarding the cages, Raybo's 54" Glamos tomato gages bolted end-to-end with 1/8" wire rope clips work very well for 5 gallon buckets. They cost a lot more but they'll be around forever.

This picture is of Galmos 42" cages bolted together

{{gwi:26462}}

This picture is of the Gardman 54" cages bolted together. I prefer the Glamos cages but these were on sale at Target for $6 when they were clearing out their garden stuff for winter.

{{gwi:46041}}

Lookin good tomncath!! Very neat setup.

Raybo

ferretbee - you stated "The orange one in front is a Rutgers with a wicking chamber and a single 7/64 with hole. It sounds crazy, but it works."

I remember reading about EngineeredGarden's philosophy in an older thread, but never knew anyone that tried it. I'm definitely gonna try it myself for a future planting, because the 3:2:1 thing just has way too many variables to consider. I really like the "once and done" approach of the 7/64" hole, because I really don't have time for sorting through pieces of bark - which will have to be performed every year. Thanks for the info.

Raybo,

Thanks for the complement, coming from you that means a lot ;-)

Tom

oderus,

I think you have overstated the "complexity" of the 3:2:1 Combo Mix. I have never "sorted through pieces of bark". I simply use the bags of Decorative Groundcover Bark as they come from Home Depot - no filtering for a specific size, etc.

I think you are confusing the 3:2:1 Combo Mix with other Threads where folks do screen for a specific range of bark size. Again, not at all required in the 3:2:1 Mix. I too, like to keep it simple. I just do 3 scoops of Potting Mix, add 2 scoops of the bark chips, and 1 scoop of Perlite - then mix together in a bucket. That's it.

Raybo

Raybo - that's interesting, I was thinking that it was screened or something. Still, those bark pieces are going to get smaller every year (as well as the perlite). It seems to me that the success of a growing medium based solely on particle size in a self watering application is going to be varied by region (climatic conditions), vendor, consumer competence, and many other possibilities. That's why i'm more interested in the alternative moisture controls - especially those that are fixed.
Not to knock your mix, but it doesn't appeal to me.

oderus_urungus, what "soil mix" does appeal to you?

This discussion has given me a lot to think about and incorporate and I thank you all very much. Now my seeds just need to hurry up and get here.

I too have some lingering questions even after all the research regarding SWCs....

1. I saw in one of the above pictures it looked like rope in the bucket, rather than a basket....does this work just as well as having a basket? I assume the rope wicks the water into the above soil?

2. Is there really a danger of using PVC pipe as far as getting certain chemicals or whatever into your food supply? Someone had mentioned this, and I've seen a lot of people using copper pipe instead....but it's so much more expensive.

3. I have a ton of those 5 gallon Lowes buckets....however since they only seem to come in dark gray, will these containers absorb too much heat in the midst of summer?

4. looking at all the wholes drilled in the bottom of the top bucket in the above picture, doesn't the dirt fall into the water chamber? Do most people use some type of weed mat or something to prevent this from happening?

Thanks!

bgaviator, during my research I believe I can help you.

1. This is a question for ferretbee and I'll let him/her answer.

2. No danger in PVC. We use PVC in a lot of potable water in FL. The danger comes when burning or melting it.

3. This is more of a question of where you live. In Fl it might be an issue. But there are some plants which thrive on heat retention. And in colder climates heat retention is wanted as well. You can always just paint the buckets white.

4. The global bucket system does not use landscape fabric. Neither do a bunch of others. I think it's purely a subjective thing. The main reason for landscape fabric is not so that the mulch does not go through, but to prevent the roots from going directly into the water. Some use it some don't. I personally am going to try it both ways and see what the difference is.

oderus_urungus, what "soil mix" does appeal to you?

Any combination that wicks satisfactorily, drains well, and also creates airspaces throughout the soil mass. I've read pretty much all of Tapla's threads, and his input on water movement through soils is the key to every successful mix discussed in this forum. Whether it's the highly touted 3:2:1, 5:1:1, or even the 6:3:1 from the guy down south. Controlling the perched water table is the majority of most people's swc mix trouble, but the introduction of oxygen to the root zone is critical too.

Good drainage and sufficient airspace between soil particles will make a huge difference in plant health - whether you're growing in a container, swc, or in the ground - for that matter. Once you understand that, you'll be able to make your own mixture, if you wish to do so.

I'm really interested in the wicking strings and 7/64" hole too, because although these 2 ideas don't come from the most vocal contributor to any swc thread in this forum, i'm quite intrigued. I'll definitely try both next year.

bgaviator,

2. Is there really a danger of using PVC pipe as far as getting certain chemicals or whatever into your food supply? Someone had mentioned this, and I've seen a lot of people using copper pipe instead....but it's so much more expensive.

Stanard PVC is not what you want to use. Use PVC schedule 40 or 80 which will not leach chemicals into your water.

Ron

I should of included in prior post;

Be sure the PVC SCH 40 has "NSF" stamped on it, which means it's safe for drinking water.

Well said, Oderus, well said!

Josh

The wicks in my buckets are just strands from a Rayon Mop head. These are hard to find, but WallyWorld carries one under the 'Mainstays' brand. This is one of the wick materials that Al Tapla recommends for helping top-watered containers drain better. As far as if they work better than a wicking basket, I'm not certain.

Some pros:
-You can control how much water is wicked by adjusting the number if wicks. This adjustment can be made at any time, even when the plant is fully grown.
-They are easier to manage in some ways since you have a flat bottom in the soil bucket, so you can easily lift it out of the reservoir bucket and set down if you need to mess with it.
-There may also be an advantage for root aeration since you can have more holes (more surface area open to the air gap) in the bottom of the soil bucket.
-Wicks help mix drain better during earlier stages after transplant when I'm using as a top-watered container.

Possible Cons:
-They may not provide as even moisture during higher temps as a wicking basket. I don't have anywhere near enough data to know if this really is an issue.
-I've seen the wicks get 'slimy' in a couple of my cucumber buckets, and wonder if this is reducing their wicking. It's also possible the plants have bacterial wilt.

I don't use landscape fabric in the bottom of my SWCs anymore. I found that landscape fabric that lays against small holes (less than 1 inch diameter) in plastic greatly restricts water drainage.

If your mix is moist, very little will fall through the holes. I often use a layer of medium to large pine bark nuggets at the bottom. In addition to keeping mix from falling through the holes, I'm hoping it will create some extra air pockets for root aeration.

The gray color of the 'Lowes' bucket may absorb too much heat. I didn't expect this to be an issue, but we've had an incredibly hot and dry summer for our area. If you live in a typically hot and sunny area I would definitely suggest white buckets.

I move any plants that tend to get wilty on hot days behind others for shade and that helps a lot.

Thanks everyone! I think I have all the info I need now to have awesome tomatoes in SWCs next season.....I think this method will be really beneficial to me since I don't have the time/manpower needed to constantly pull the weeds in the regular garden.

Has anyone tried a sponge as a wicking medium? Seems like it should work.

Since your Zone 10 Florida I'll pipe up. I tried the chamois strips and they didn't work well at all here, mold and mildew quickly and I'd suspect the same thing from a sponge....The wicking cups filled with the same soil mix worked much better, but as I said earlier, beware the heat as the water goes bad here very quickly in a small bottom-reservoir container.

tomncath wrote:

beware the heat as the water goes bad here very quickly in a small bottom-reservoir container.

What do you mean by it goes bad?

It goes sour very quickly in a 5 gallon bucket due to our heat, has to be flushed every few days down here unless you move them into the shade...no where near as problematic with the larger stuff like the 18 gallon totes but when a hurricane is coming you're really not going to move a 18 gallon tote, the plants are just going to get trashed....

Thanks for the reply. However I apologize for ignorance still on the issue. What is "sour" water? And how does it negatively effect the plants?

It stinks! If you can smell it, it sure isn't good for your plants...and this IS Al's mix, not something with compost in it.

Sour water has anaerobic bacteria activity that's causing all the stink. you could also aerate the water if your container is near an outside plug.

Too much work for me, in the peak of my veggie seasons I've had 70 buckets going, just scaled back to 50....

Ok, one more question for now. Mainly for Raybo. Could one substitute NAPA Floor Dry or other automotive DE product for the perlite? The reason I ask is because Perlite in the quantity I need is expensive and hard to find around here. Where as I could get 50lbs of Napa Floor Dry for $7.

The NAPA floor dry will not behave the same as pearlite. It retains a lot of moisture and will increase the wicking of your mix. You would have to increase the bark or decrease the potting mix, or probably both.

NAPA floor dry must be screened to remove the fine particles, or it will make your mix stay like wet cement. Also make certain to get the correct product (I think the part # is 8822). NAPA sells another type of floor dry that isn't suitable for potting mix.

JustaGuy used to make a SWC mix with well aged pine bark fines and turface (I think 5:2). My test of this mix with NAPA Floor Dry was a failure, most likely because I didn't screen out the fine particles.