Tough call. If you plan to grow these trees inside the house, you'll need some big saucers to catch the water. That's the problem with that type of mix. Fine for outside, but difficult indoors. I like a more retentive mix for inside.

You would need to find saucers that could hold the amount of water you pour in, otherwise your floors will get wet.

You are in a warm zone so I will assume your trees will be outdoors.

A few holes in the bottom should be enough.

Jane

I toss them, Claire, choosing to grow in pots that have a drainage hole. To grow in a pot w/o drainage holes negates two of the most attractive qualities of the gritty mix, that being the fact that you can water copiously so you have no concern/worry about accumulating salts or root rot. You can drill as many holes as you like, but there is no advantage in any number greater than 1, as far as drainage is concerned. I prefer a drain hole through the bottom at the edge. That way, in case the gritty mix is made with components that are a little to fine, you can insert a wick and tip the container with the hole down, and drain all or nearly all of any perched water that might remain after draining stops with the pot level.

I set my containers up on some sort of blocking so it's always above any water that collects in the saucer you are going to need to catch the effluent. If you use a wick, both the the wick and soil should be free of contact with the effluent to prevent flushed salts from getting back into the container. Salts in solution reach a state of isotonicity (a balance in the level of salts in the saucer water and the soil solution) very quickly, so allowing the water to drain through with the pot in the effluent reduces the effectiveness of flushing the soil.

I don't look at having to deal with the effluent as a problem any more than I look at having to put gas in my car and air in the tires as problems. It's just what's required if you want the benefits of a highly aerated, durable soil. I guess that part depends on perspective. If you only have a few plants, or if they're small, you can water them over the sink or over saucers. In many cases, if you water over saucers, the effluent will have evaporated or nearly evaporated by the time it's time to water again, adding what is usually valuable humidity to the air, a decided advantage during dry winters especially if you're using supplemental heat. Is the glass half full, or half empty?

Take good care. I'm sure you'll fare well! ;o)

Al

I certainly agree with Al and am only curious as to the "trees" you intend to grow. Your pot may seem large, but with a tree in it, it may be very small. Al

I have a small Negronne fig now (about 1.5' high and 2' wide) and a small Carrie mango on its way (maybe 3' high). If my pots aren't big enough, what size should I use?
(Please indicate in inches if possible as I never see any big pots labeled in terms of gallons.)

Al, your detailed info was so helpful -- especially the explanation of keeping the pot above the effluent. As ignorant as I am, it didn't make sense to me to have it sitting in the water.

Claire

Ignorant perhaps in the classic sense, meaning only that you are just beginning your gardening journey and there are things you don't know, but certainly not ignorant in the common sense. I'm glad you found my offering helpful. ;o)

... tell us more about your trees? What are they in now (container size and soil description)? Root bound?

The fig can/should be repotted when it loses its leaves, and as long as it's leafless. The mango would best be repotted after the vernal equinox and before Mother's Day (in your zone). Pot up anytime.

Al

Al,

Thanks for your interest. I think the fig came from air layering (if I remember that term right), and the branches look rather thick for its small size. It had only one fig on it -- since eaten :) -- and only a 3-4 leaves on each of its four branches. The soil feels quite loose and I can see the Perlite in it. I've put some pine straw on top as a mulch, but haven't yet tried to fertilize because I haven't yet had the chance to do the research on that.

It's sitting in a black nursery plastic container -- which, strangely, the nurseryman couldn't size for me. He finally said "maybe 15 gallon" but he looked really uncertain. He told me to pot up as soon as possible as the fine roots are showing at the drainage holes but I'm thinking I'll need to wait for the leaves to drop so I can prune the roots before potting up. Meanwhile, it's taken me quite some time to research and understand the Gritty Mix and then to locate the elements -- which I hope to pick up next week. And it appears from this thread that I may now have the further delay of returning and replacing the pots I bought for the fig and the Carrie.

I haven't seen the Carrie yet, but will have a choice between two -- as if I knew enough to choose properly :) -- when the nursery brings them down next week to my local farmer's market.

Claire

Hi Claire,
I'm like you, and not real sure of the pot sizes. So maybe Al can help us both. :)

My figs are in the black nursery pots too.

The pots say #5 on them, and I belive 3.4 gal. It's faded and I don't have my glasses. ;)

They are 12" tall and about 10 1/2" across..

So.. What size are they Al ? I thought 5 gal. but they don't say that.

Lucky you, a Mango! That's on my wish list for spring. :)
Fertilizing isn't that complicated. But I'll let Al explain when he gets here. Im still learning myself. :)

JoJo

Claire - why return the pots? Are you thinking they're not appropriate insofar as size is concerned? You CAN pot up any time, but if you're going to repot after leaves fall, I'd just skip potting up altogether. It would just be wasted effort and soil. FWIW - you can go much larger on pot size when using a properly made gritty mix. It's the perched water in heavy soils that kills roots. A properly made gritty mix has no, or very little, perched water, so you could pot tiny seedlings in barrels of soil if you want. I guess what I'm saying is your pot could be too small, but it's unlikely it could be too large.

I would hold off on the fertilizer for a few weeks. Especially if there are CRF prills (little beads) on the surface. If the tree isn't showing any signs of leaf loss due to impending dormancy, and leaves start looking chlorotic (yellowish) a shot of Miracle-Gro 24-8-16 (granular soluble - box) or 12-4-8 (liquid - yellow jug) is a good choice. Many of us are very happy using Foliage-Pro 9-3-6, which is my favorite as well.

JJ - a 5T nursery container will hold 4.1 gallons and a 5S will hold 4.9.

Al

Hmmm.. So what do I have? lol..
All of mine only say #5, and the ones from lowes also say 3.4 gal. if I am reading them right. the tag is a little faded.

Not trying to be difficult. Honest . :)
Just courious.
JJ

Product Numbers, Dimensions & Volumes

# ......................... Diam x ht .... Gallons . Liters
1T Trade 1 Gallon 6 1/2 x 6 1/2 0.75 2.84
2T Trade 2 Gallon 8 1/2 x 8 1.60 6.06
3T Trade 3 Gallon 10 1/4 x 9 2.80 10.60
3S Squat 3 Gallon 11 1/2 x 8 2.80 10.60
3F Full 3 Gallon 10 1/2 x 10 3.00 11.36
5T Trade 5 Gallon 12 x 10 1/2 4.10 15.52
5S Squat 5 Gallon 13 1/2 x 10 3/4 4.86 18.40
7T Trade 7 Gallon 14 x 11 3/8 6.20 23.47
15 15 Gallon 17 3/4 x 16 14.35 54.31

Thanks Al~
This is great info to have.
I guess the ones from lowes are 5 gal but marked wrong. :)

JJ

Al,

So much valuable info for me. My cup runneth over!

I was anxious about the pots because I thought I needed the perfect size -- not too big or too small, and it seemed from a comment above that they might be too small. Now that I have the relief of knowing there is no "too big" with gritty mix, I can shop with an easier mind (plus save the cost of new pots after a while).

I have found the Foliage-Pro and will go with that. Thanks for saving me lots of research.

And, about gritty mix and root pruning -- Do all container plants need to be root- pruned on a regular basis? I ask because, in addition to my two fruit trees, I have some bilberry plants (the first step I took in this new gardening adventure). I lost one of the three bilberries after shipping and discovered then that they have a very delicate root system close to the surface which does not take well to any kind of handling. I didn't know about the gritty mix when I first established them in smallish pots (1 perlite to 1 spag. peat) so I will need to pot up at some point in the future. But after that, given the sturdiness and longevity of the gritty mix, could I maintain them in those pots "forever."?

Oh, and speaking of the bilberries, I'm thinking the Foliage-Pro (which I'll use for the trees) won't be acid enough for them. Or would it be if I add the 1-2 T vinegar to the fertilizing water? (I live in so. Calif with very hard water.) If the vinegar won't be enough, do you approve of MG Miracid instead of the Foliage-Pro?

I hope I'm not abusing your patience with so many questions.

Claire

"Do all container plants need to be root- pruned on a regular basis?"

The ones that die because you didn't don't. ;o) That was a joke, btw. I think it's more important to keep after the roots of the woody perennial plantings you're going to keep in containers over the long term, but even container plantings of Hosta, iris, bamboo/grasses, and other plants that DON'T make woody roots need to have the condition of their roots, the rhizosphere, looked after - to make sure they have a happy place to live. It's impossible to have a happy plant w/o happy roots.

Think about how many perennial landscape plantings in the garden need to be divided or thinned regularly, or they perform poorly. Because of restrictive containers, this effect is magnified in containers many times over. Many people actually believe that houseplants have a very short life span, that you bring them home, water and fertilize them until they die a year or two later. I call this 'the revolving door method of growing houseplants', one dies - buy another.

Most of the decline in the average hobby grower's plants is due to not understanding even the simple aspects of plant science. Several have tried to convince others that science has little to do with successful growing, but that argument gets NO traction around here. You don't need to know EVERYTHING, but the basics - how to water, how to fertilize, and enough about soils that you can actually determine a good soil from a bad soil are the keys. If you can get those under your belt, you're over the hump and on a downhill slide. You can also trust me when I say that the better you understand the intricacies of how plants function and react to their environment, the better your effort:reward ratio will be. Not all would agree, but many would when I say you can come to this forum and learn more about growing plants in containers in a week of study, than you could in 10 years of trial and error.

All of the information you need to be a successful container grower fits together like a jigsaw puzzle under assembly. Each of the pieces are somehow connected to the other pieces - some directly, and some a little more extraneously, but they ARE all connected. If ever you’ve put a jigsaw puzzle together, you probably remember that it’s easier when you try to get the outer 'frame' together first. This outer frame is representative of the basic knowledge needed for success, like how soils work & how the individual components interact to make the whole, how fertilizers work, a little about how different cultural conditions affect plant growth/performance, how plants work (physiology) . . . things like that. Just like the puzzle, after you have the basic framework completed, assembling the rest of the pieces, the o/a picture, if you prefer, will occur at a rate exponentially faster than the rate at which you first progressed at the outset of your growing journey. No need to be daunted, there are many here willing to help you with your progress.

Back to the topic - Plants with fibrous root systems also need root work, but there are ways to deal with those types of plants. More when you get there, but it involves removing sections of soil and the larger roots in those sections. Commonly, we might divide the root mass into 4 or 6 imaginary wedges, and work on 2 or 3 at a time. The next repot, usually a year later, the other sections get worked on, then you go a year or two w/o additional root work. How you approach the roots depends on the tree, the root structure, and the trees genetic level of vigor.

You asked about maintaining a particular tree in a pot 'forever'. Indefinitely, yes. ;o) If you become proficient at maintaining the roots and providing good cultural conditions, most trees can be maintained in containers for a lifetime w/o problems. This is a very long topic, so just trust that it can be done, and look to several hundred year old bonsai trees as confirming.

You can use Miracid if you wish, but it's very high in N. What causes the acid reaction is the simple fact that the 30-10-10 gets it's N from urea; but 24-8-16 and 12-4-8 (MG, too) ALSO get their N from urea, so they are also acid producing fertilizers and have a more favorable NPK ratio. If I was making the decision (I guess I already have), ;o) I would still use the 9-3-6 and acidify my irrigation water with white vinegar or citric acid, keeping in mind that 5.8-6.0 is a good target range for irrigation water pH.

Al

Al,

Thanks for the clarification on root-pruning.

You wrote: "I would still use the 9-3-6 and acidify my irrigation water with white vinegar or citric acid, keeping in mind that 5.8-6.0 is a good target range for irrigation water pH."

That is what I'll do.

And while I still -- I hope -- have your ear . . .

Re: re-potting - does this involve only the root pruning or does it also involve a complete replacement of all the original gritty mix?

Re: pots -- I've just come across the fabric "Smart Pots" -- are they a smart choice?

Many thanks,

Claire

Hi Claire,
I'm sure you still have his ear. ;)

Here's a great thread I thought you might like to read while Al's away.

It's been a huge help to many of us here.

I hope you enjoy it.
JoJo

Here is a link that might be useful: Tree's in Containers.

Wow, JoJo! I've just started reading it and already I have the answer my "replace the soil when repotting" question. It appears that Al was just starting that forum, so there's a lot of detailed explanation that is really helpful to me. Thanks so much for the link.

Claire

Hi Claire,
So glad you found it useful. :)

I have it saved in my clippings.

Have a great night!
JoJo

Al,

Me again.

I've been using calculators on line, working with volumes for cylinders, and I *think* I have the correct figures for 1) the two pots I have already bought (though I can still return them) and 2) the pots that seem to be the next choice (in terms of cost and attractiveness).

The pots I have are 20" (which tapers down to 11") x 13" (12.5 gallons, 1.5 cubic feet)

The others that I'm looking at are 23" x 16" (31 gallons, 4 cubic feet).

I would like to stay with the pots I have. They are much lighter (they'll be on a small balcony) and will require less work with the gritty mix (which I'll be attempting to do my kitchen, with a kitchen strainer.)

But, you said it was possible to have pots too small. So, if I'm wanting to grow my two trees (fig & mango) to about 5-6 feet in height . . . are the pots I have too small?

(It probably has no bearing on anything, but just in case . . . I think both are currently potted in 5 gallon containers.)

Claire

Al,

"There is little advantage in growth rates in a large container vs a small container. The limiting factor is root congestion. If there is an advantage to be had, it is found in the fact that it takes roots longer to get to the point where they are considered over-crowded (root/soil mass lifted intact)."

Ahh. This was the point I needed to grasp. I was thinking the small container would hamper growth (the roots perhaps being insufficient to support a 5' tree.) I will probably stay with my smallish container and plan on more frequent
re-potting.

Many thanks for all your help.

Claire

{{gwi:2595}}

Al,

I thought I had found all the ingredients for the gritty mix, but as it turns out I'm having a problem re: pine bark. I had planned on using Repti-Bark (snake bedding), but that's pricey and now that I have a better idea of the amount I'll need, I am trying to find an alternative.

It seems the stores in the San Diego County area that used to carry some of the brands recommended on Garden Web (in several different threads) now only carry mulch and decorative barks that are of unknown origin.

I'm pretty sure you're going to tell me the following is a dumb idea. . . but I thought I'd try you on it anyway: Would it be possible to use pine needles (which I have access to in abundance) as a substitute? Right now, I cut these needles down to about 1-2" to use as a covering mulch, and my understanding is that they do help acidify the soil (which you've said elsewhere is the only purpose of the pine bark.) Obviously these needles would be no way near the dimensions of the turface or granite (or perlite) that are meant to keep the soil aerated, but "in concert" they do have a kind of loft and they don't seem to break down all that fast.

Claire, who is probably deluding herself . . .

Hey, Claire!
The pine needles will not perform well in a container. Mainly, they're small to begin with, and they'll break down quickly - which will impede drainage. I can't remember if their acidity poses a problem (during that rapid breakdown), but they are best composted or used as mulch, in my opinion.

In the Gritty Mix, the Bark is selected for its durability, its moisture capacity (between the Turface and the Granite), its favorable pH, and its particle size.

In the 5-1-1, Bark plays a greater role. The Bark's primary purpose is filler/structure. It replaces traditional fillers such as Peat Moss or Coconut products, and it outperforms both. Bark has a favorable/useful pH for container culture, it is durable (especially when compared to a pre-collapsed particle like Peat Moss), and it holds a fair amount of moisture.

I'm sure that Al will explain further and clarify if I've gotten anything wrong.


Josh

Thanks, Josh, even though it's not what I wanted to hear. :( I guess I'll just have to spend the money on the Repti-Bark.

Claire

No need for me to add anything to what Josh said, other than to try to point you in an orchidly direction for the bark. I would start calling orchid DEALERS and tell them you want fir bark in 2-4 cu ft bags in 1/8-1/4 inch size. If they say they don't have it, ask if they know another dealer or wholesaler that has it available. Shasta Forest Products in Yreka is one of the larger producers of fir bark, so I would almost expect that with a little sleuthing, you'd find it quickly. If you don't find it in a day or two, let me know, and I'll start my own investigation. ;o)

You might try calling Shasta and asking who they distribute to in your area. (530) 842-2785

Would you consider adding your state or a large city near you to your user info? It's difficult to keep track of where everyone is from. I had to go looking through the thread to determine you were from SoCal so I knew if the Shasta lead would have promise for you. ;o)

Take care.

Al

I was searching for the same info, Al.... ;)

Perhaps E.B. Stone's Orchid Bark would be feasible.
Large purple bag in 'fine' grade Fir Bark.

I actually use both their Orchid Bark and their (Greenall) Micro Bark decorative mulch.

I attached a link to their site. They might have a listing of nearest nurseries.


Josh

Here is a link that might be useful: E.B. Stone

Al and Josh,

Oh, I wish I had posted about this sooner! I've run myself ragged trying to find this bark and now I have at least one and possibly two sources. Most promising right now is the Armstrong Garden Center which is in the town just south of me. They have the "Orchid Bark Fine" by E.B. Stone, 1 cu. ft. for only $9. (The repti-bark was $22 for 24 oz.!)

I also called Shasta. I had seen them online last week, and they had the perfect size (Mini Bark, Pea Pebble), but their website made it look like they only sold starting in cubic yards. When I called today, I discovered that they do have 2 and 3 cu. ft. bags (for $2 and $6) and the woman there has promised to email me tomorrow if she can find any dealers close by.

Happy days are here again. :)

Claire

Update on Bark Treasure Hunt: Ralph at Shasta Forest called me this morning was very helpful and after a couple more phone calls I was in touch with a company only a few towns away -- Crop Production Services in San Marcos (760-744-2514, Lena) -- which has 5 cu.ft. bags of the Mini Bark for only $10.94!

Thanks again, Al and Josh.

Claire

{{gwi:12455}}

Al

Yeah... ReptiBark is a little expensive, but it's a great find if you don't need that much. Added bonuses are no rinsing, no sifting, and no waste.

So, if you don't need a lot, it's a great product.

Al,

You said "The fig can/should be repotted when it loses its leaves, and as long as it's leafless. The mango would best be repotted after the vernal equinox and before Mother's Day (in your zone). Pot up anytime. "

What's the rule for my bilberries and low bush blueberries (zone 10 -- Oceanside, CA)?

Claire

I'm guessing they're evergreen or semi-deciduous where you live, and probably start waking up in Feb? I would repot them any time during the winter months when they are resting, but before they start pushing spring growth.

Al

Thanks, Al. I've been doing what I can to search by "Tapla: topic" but some things I just have to ask about.

I've come across the photos of your garden. I didn't need these to bolster my faith in you, but they were so lovely to see and enjoy. And so inspiring as I try to transform my 12' x 6' balcony -- working around my cat and his possessions. :)

Claire

We all learn from these threads.
Now I know what to do with my blueberries. ;)

Good to see things are comming along for you Claire.
I'm sure by spring your balcony will look awsome!
Take care,
JoJo

Thanks for the kind words, CC. Don't worry about asking questions. If no one asked them, there would be too few learning opportunities & the whole place would fall apart. :o) If it's appropriate, someone will just direct you to threads that have the answers, or just answer them outright. Glad you liked the pics, too. It gives people the opportunity to see I'm not all theory and no practice, :o)

Hey, JJ. ;o)

Al

Hey back Al! ;)
well said!
The place would fall apart. :)
I open many a thread just out of being courious, and end up learning so much from what others are asking.

Claire,
The search feature has a tendency to not be the greatest, so it never hurts to ask. ;)
JJ