Anna:

Fedco Trees in Maine sells Surround at a fair price; so does Peaceful Valley in CA. Maine would be a better choice for your location. Markup on this item can be exorbitant from many other suppliers, and I have not seen this product at local stores, though it may exist at some nurseries.

If it's insect protection that interests you, you might rather try bagging your apples (after thinning, of course) in ziplock sandwich bags. There is a wealth of info on bagging apples on this forum and from many other sources. Of course, you have to be able to reach the apples to bag them, so it's more difficult with larger trees.

Surround must be renewed several times during the season, and spraying it is no more pleasant than spraying anything else, which is not very. At the end of the season, you have to scrub it off. Ziplocs are a one-time solution that lasts all season, are almost 100% effective at insect protection, protect against sooty blotch and flyspeck, and are a lot cheaper than buying a big sprayer and Surround.

Don Yellman, Great Falls, VA

Hi Anna-
I'll 2nd Don's bagging recommendation. He got me started on it, and I'll be doing it again this year.
-Glenn

Thanks for your quick responses, Don and Glenn. I am indeed looking for insect and bird protection.
These are trees I inherited with the house I bought last year and they are indeed very tall, about 20-25 ft.
I got a landscaper to prune them and thin out the branches, but the branches are pretty much out of reach.
Last year I didn't spend money on sprays etc. for the same reason, thinking I may not be able to get to the fruit.
However, to my surprise and delight, the ripe apples would fall to the ground and our family did get to enjoy them. Unless ofcourse the birds or the deer got to them first, :-).
The fruit is delicious, and so I thought I will spend some money on organic sprays to get the apples to look a bit better.
I will check out the suppliers you mention.
Thanks for the info!
Anna

I just received my bag of Surround from Seven Springs. http://www.7springsfarm.com/ . They don't have an online order mechanism but they have the cheapest price and charge exactly the UPS ground rate for shipping, no extra. They are in Virginia.

This year I am going to use Surround on plum curculio and then use Entrust and/or Cyd-X for the codling moth. Last year I sprayed Surround for the moths as well but the stuff is messy so I am going to try to spray it for a shorter period. The period from when you first see fruitlets to nickel-sized is the curculio season when Surround is required for organic growers.

Scott

Thanks Scott, I see they charge $27.00 - lowest I have seen so far too.
What kind of sprayer do I need to buy.
Do you use any particular tank sprayer, hand held sprayer?
Anna

Anna, I would guess you want to get a 4-gallon Solo backpack sprayer. I don't have big trees like that so I am not sure how much spray they need, and it could be two gals is good enough but to be safe its better to have more rather than less sprayer. Do make sure to get a wand extension, I am pretty sure there is an accessory for the 4-gal Solo. It may be hard to reach the tops without an extension. Jon at Seven Springs should be able to advise you there -- I think he sells Solos.

I would also consider getting Michael Phillips book The Apple Grower -- it has more information than you will need but it has lots of ideas on growing organic apples successfully.

Scott

The problem with things like Surround is the cost of shipping heavy bags; so even if Fedco (an excellent company) charge a low rate for the product, shipping costs from Maine might be quite high. You need to see what the total cost is.

I recall that Michael Smith urged that one use the diaphram type Solo sprayer, not the piston type which is perhaps more common, as the fine particles will more readily damage the latter.

Scott, I'm interested in how you are dealing with pests and disease on stone fruit. Last year I sprayed early with some old supply of Imidan and then bagged. The Imidan, as one might expect, worked great on the curculio, and bagging worked well on the apples; but the oriental fruit moth layed eggs right through the baggies I put on my nectarines, ruining every one of them. And bagging plums sounds like something only the truly obsessed would do. I'd be interested to have a post by you in which you lay out in some detail your latest program of pest and disease control. I am thinking of trying Surround this year, since I would greatly prefer not to use things like Imidan.

ATP, I didn't spray much for later diseases last year and I got horrible brown rot in August. I only spray when I find out it is needed and I guess I was getting lucky in the past. I did a lot better on the insects. The Surround worked very well on the curculio and the Surround plus spinosad did pretty well on the moths. I needed to keep spraying spinosad longer than I did, the late peaches had a fair amount of moth damage. I am also going to stop Surround once the curculio are gone, it is too much of a pain to spray all season.

Next year I am going to be using summer oil along with the spinosad since it supposedly both helps the spinosad increase effectiveness and provides some control against brown rot. I am also going to be using Serenade MAX against the brown rot. Both the oil and the Serenade are considered "moderately effedctive" on brown rot but I am hoping the combination will be better. I will also be doing copper through shuck split as my primary early brown rot control, and may do some sulphur sprays later as well.

Scott

Does Surround work as a barrier for Japanese Beetles on a cherry tree? I was going to try some this year to fight off the evil beetles.

Regarding backpack sprayers, as Austranplant suggested, diaphragm sprayers are best with abrasive materials. I use an SP0 sprayer from SP systems. The beauty of this sprayer is, it has a patented mechanism that agitates the spray each time the handle is pumped. It's supposed to be designed specially for wettable powders, that have a tendency to settle out.

I live near the edge of a world-class kaolin mining district and am going to experiment with using raw, dug-it-with-a-shovel kaolin. I don't really "buy" the sales literature warnings as how this is somehow risky and that they have a highly refined product. Almost nothing is less chemically reactive than kaolin. All there is to refine is get the coarser material out of it (if any) and that can easily be done by settling. Selecting a whitish clay is important too, I'm sure. A little soap (or white glue) to help spread and stick may be needed as well. There are other cheap convenient sources of clay too. One cheap brand of kitty litter (greyish though) was simply dried clay and would disaggregate easily to mud when wetted (though had shifted to unsuitable fullers earth last time I checked) and bentonite clay is available at every well-drillers supply house, but has different chemical and physical characteristics. I may buy some of the real Surround first to see how it all should work.

sharppa, I have had very good luck using Surround against Japanese beetles. You need to start spraying at the very first sighting, not after you have a swarm.

GB, my understanding with raw kaolin is you can clog your sprayer badly with the bigger particles.

Scott

For the record, the agitation system on the SP0 is not based on paddles. It recycles part of the solution in the tank with each pump. Works quite well.

olpea, I have the same kind of sprayer, and it has worked well for me for five years. It has clogged on wettable copper powder a couple times so now I tilt the tank when adding copper and mix with some water in the corner so the powder won't clog the pump. It has never, ever clogged on Surround and I haven't had to change the seals in five years. Solo seems to be the most common kind, thats why I recommended it above.

Scott

Hi Scott,

I didn't know Solo made a sprayer that agitates the solution. When I bought this sprayer, I started out intending to get a Solo. I even ordered one of their extra long two piece wands. Then I ended up getting the SP sprayer, and the Solo wand wouldn't fit the SP (threads are different). If you need a long Solo wand, I could make you a good deal.

olpea, I guess I wasn't clear, I have the same kind of sprayer as you do, not a Solo. Its a fine sprayer but I have not heard of anyone else (besides me, and now you) having good luck with them so I have not been recommending them. I wish they made a 5-gal, I am going to get a 5-gal sprayer here so I can go a little longer between refills.

Scott

It recycles part of the solution in the tank with each pump." We call that sparge agitation. All modern big sprayers have that and the paddles. Need both, and you need a good cleaning afterwards.
The only thing anyone used Surround for around here was sunburn. but, we don't have some of the things you have back east. I didn't see hardly any Surround last year. It is too messy for the people who have to work in the orchard and there are now better things for sunburn.
Scott, I often have to put spin on every week. I also have pheromones in the trees. I am looking forward to when we can spray or mist it on. Maybe they have it now, but I no longer keep up on things and just do what I am told. I'll find out in a few months. The GV helps, but what really helps growing organically more than anything is having neighbors who spray their trees, otherwise their mated females come into my orchard. I could tell you stories.
And honestly, I often wonder if it is worth it for me.

Hi, I would like to know where you get the sprayer recommended here for surround?

I am new to fruit trees as well, we also inherited about 20 fruit trees when we bought our house this year, there are apple, peach, plum.

We did notice moth larvae damage and something else maybe fungal.

Wendey

I bought Surround at Garden Alive and wondering also where to buy sprayer to use with Surround.
Somebody told me that they we not spraying but "painting" each fruit on a tree. Is it acceptable solution against cherry fly?

There is no special sprayer needed, any sprayer meant for yard/garden use will work. If you read above you will see there has been a recommendation to get a diaphragm and not piston type sprayer. Some of us are having good luck with the SP Systems SP0 which is sold at e.g. Amazon. This is a 4-gal backpack which may be more sprayer than you need. The Solo sprayers are a bit cheaper and also come highly recommended.

All chemical tree sprays are really "painting" (get an even coat on everything), its just with Surround it is white when it dries. So it feels more like painting.

I don't know how well Surround works on cherry fruit fly, I have not had a problem with that pest (yet).

Scott

briergardner:

I don't think Surround would be practical to use on cherries against any insect. It would be extremely difficult to remove residues from small, soft fruits like cherries.

The best way to deal with cherry fruit fly is by a combination of cultural practices. First, clean off all the cherries from the tree at the end of the season and discard if they are not edible. If infected cherries are allowed to drop to the ground, the larvae inside will pupate and burrow into the ground, ready for next season.

Second, hoe around the base of the tree two or three times to a depth of 3-4 inches just prior to winter cold spells, from the trunk all the way out to the drip line. This will disturb pupae that are already in the ground, causing them to freeze or dry out.

Cherry fruit flies do not travel far, and their cycle is normally perpetuated right beneath your tree. You can break this cycle by taking these precautions. If close neighbors also have cherry trees that are not picked or cared for, you may have to do theirs too to make this work.

Don Yellman, Great Falls, VA

Second, hoe around the base of the tree two or three times to a depth of 3-4 inches just prior to winter cold spells, from the trunk all the way out to the drip line. This will disturb pupae that are already in the ground, causing them to freeze or dry out.
This is really good advice from Don. It can't be over emphasized.

I have a very young tree that gave me so far small amount of cherries that i picked all.
I think these flies are coming from the neighborhood. But i can't go to all my neighbors and do gardening there.
I need to do something in my garden.
I have black current and gooseberry bushes that were fine for couple years then some fly came from nowhere and i found a worm in each berry. After this i cleaned very well and hoed around and let chicken to go around, but nothing helped. Last year i covered these bushes with very fine net material, this was not attractive to look at but it helped.
Now i got problem with cherry tree, but because it gives me actually so far maybe only 20-30 cherries, i was able to pick them all (with worms still inside).
Wondering maybe this is the same fly that could not reach black current and came for cherry?
Hm, i bought Surround, don't see now usage for it.

I think these flies are coming from the neighborhood. But i can't go to all my neighbors and do gardening there.

See, this is the problem with organic farming, orcharding or gardening. We have a control board in our county who we can call and then they will go to the owner and persuade him to spray or remove his problem trees. Even then it is a long and arduous process. It is expensive and maybe not worth it anymore.

2013 Update. Now $33.50 at 7 Springs but $40 (plus an $11 shipping premium plus the usual shipping cost) from Johnny Seeds.

I think I need to try a couple of bags (apple trees, cherries, vegetables, greens, herbs).

7 Springs just added a shopping cart so you don't have to email Ron to place an order anymore. I have been a happy customer for years, highly recommended.

Scott

Thank you, Scott. I did get price and shipping right on the site. Johnny's price now, on the site, is $50 + $11 + shipping, about $90... marked organic. I do not know whether there are types. I did however, read that straight-up kaolin clay will kill plants. Surround is processed (very fine) and contains a sticker-spreader.

Lowest cost I could find for Surround WP 25 lb is at peaceful valley - $39.99 + 14.99 shipping = ~$55. Fedco was more expensive ($60 + unknown shipping cost), while shipping cost alone from Seven Springs was $39.66, ouch! One tip, if using 10% new customer discount from Peaceful Valley, that would bring it down to ~$50, which is still costly but cheapest online if one needs to pay for delivery. If one lives in a major fruit-growing region (e.g. CA, or parts of WA, OR, MI, OH, & NY), 25 lb of Surround could prolly be had for half, about $25.

how come Surround WP is allowed to be used in USA while banned in other countries? and like many more chemicals are OK to be used in USA and not in other countries?

Surround is not a chemical agent. It is finely ground up clay. It acts as a physical barrier and irritant to the insects to keep them off the trees.

So its not a "chemical" in the sense that the word is used in pest control.

We are all chemicals of some sort.

As yo why it is banned in some places and not others....... In Canada they will soon be banning air.

Mike

I don't use it ( although I have a bag) because of the importance of re-applying as it is washed off and I can only get to the orchard on weekends and the weather does not co-operate with my schedule. If it rains on Monday and the stuff is washed off it does me no good to reapply it on Saturday next.

I use a low spray regimen. Look up "harvestman" or "low level spray program " here and you should find it.

I use "chemicals" but sparingly. Keep in mind that cobra venom is also organic. I don't worship at the organic temple. I prefer the "Temple of Reason".

Mike

Late to this party on kaolin ... but dies it just work fir detering cupulios

Hi there, I found a good price (better than Amazon) at GrowItNaturally - $44.50 for 25 pounds.