Dan:

That sounds like lack of pollination. Watch closely this spring if there are bees visiting multiple cultivars with bloom. Pollinate a few by hand if needed. You should get fruit unless there is a freeze that kills things.

I forgot an important piece. I have pears growing next to the apples and they did very very well setting fruit. I do not think they are self fruitful, but if so, I cant imagine the crop I had was from being self fruitful.

At any rate, I will have bees this spring, hopefully in time for blossom. We shall see if this makes a difference.

What apples do you have? Do you have the proper apple tree pollinator for each type? I do not think it is the bees fault. Sometimes, crab apples will work as a pollinator, depending on when both bloom. Some apples are very particular about what other apples must be nearby.

Look at catalogs like Stark Bros: for honeycrisp apple, use golden delicious, red rome beauty, jon-a-red jonathan as pollinators.

Dan:

Self fruitful trees are often the biggest setting of all. So that means nothing. My experience is I've never failed to crop apples if they were properly pollinated. A few crops were severely thinned by frost near or after bloom. But that usually shows up as some deformed fruit that stays on the trees.

Get a Goldrush. You have your pollinator and you eat it, too, and it is the best or close to the best eating. It seems to me that there is some rare pollen incompatibility there, but the bees are surely present.

I'd try adding another variety of apple or even better, a crabapple that has a prolific and long bloom period.

Yes, Crab is good...it could be that your trees are still too young.

I don't understand, were you expecting Empire apples to pollinate themselves?

I have 7 apple trees. A golden deliciious is right next to my empire. On the other side of the empire is my honey crisp (honey crisp had 6-8 blossoms 2011). Kitty corner and one tree down is a red delicious. (50-60ish ft maybe from empire) I also have a Freedom, Mutsu, and Liberty thrown in the mix, but further from my empire. The example I cited was the empire as it had the most blossoms, followed a close second by my golden. All planted in 2007-2008, the delicious trees were advanced and already blossoming when purchased, but didn not blossom again until 2011(why???). The empire is the star of the show. It overtook the delicious and blossomed like crazy, starting in 2010 (nothing else blossomed though in 2010 so I did not worry no fruit set.. no pollinator that year). Being next to the delicious that was in fact finally blossoming again in 2011, albeit a bit less than empire, one would think either of these two trees should have set more than 3-4 apples in 2011. The bees are there, the correct pollinators should be in place, everything looks good for good crops of apples. Trees are of bearing age if I am getting blossoms.

I do see bees, regularly. When the milkweed was in bloom bees were working it like crazy. One would think the bees would work the apple blossoms if they work the milkweed and the golden rod.

If I can figure out how to post it, I have a PDF showing my plantings. Would enjoy sharing if anyone was interested in seeing.

Suggestions are welcome. Hopefully this is clear. Once the PDF gets out it will be more clear. Thanks for the advice so far.

Dan

Dan:

If you have lots of bloom and bees this year with no fruit, then you have an issue. To me it sounds like something has been lacking up to this point.

Your trees are still young. But I won't say that is the issue. Any time I've had bloom and bees there has been an abundance of fruit set even on 2nd leaf trees.

It is possible that the bees are going after the alternative pollen/nectar food sources vs. your apple trees.

This has been an observed phenomena in commercial orchards. I've seen recommendations to get rid of alternative pollen sources in apple orchards.

Apples are less attractive to bees than some other native pollen sources, so that could be an issue in your case. Pears are even less attractive, but generally have the advantage of self-pollination.

Previously Olpea wrote: "Pears are even less attractive, but generally have the advantage of self-pollination."

That should read, "Pears are even less attractive, but sometimes have the advantage of self-pollination."

I manage an awful lot of small orchards and the pollinators usually find the trees, even when there are alternative flowers available. What you should do is observe your flowering trees on a warm day- this should be your guide.

I have to wonder if you are pruning your trees correctly and not using too many heading cuts and thus delaying the maturity of your trees. Empire is pretty hard to delay no matter how you prune because it is a spur monster.

Apple is a pretty good food source and always attract some honey bees, native bees & bumbles, even with multiple food sources. I had plenty of fruit when I had no bee hives in my orchard, ...no other bee keeper around.

Another note on utilizing pruning to increase flowering type growth. This one I learned from harvestman right here on this forum, thank you very much. Summer pruning will direct the apple tree into putting a fair degree of it's remaining season's energy into formation of spurs and fruiting buds by focusing on eliminating the vertical growth. Prior to doing this, I only dormant pruned. So after doing the Summer pruning I saw without a doubt greatly increased fruiting development to include pencil growth. Please correct me if wrong on this. But it sure seemed to help me out.

I keep a small orchard, and various fruit trees. I have ten apple trees, with six of them between ten to twenty years of age (standard, not dwarf or semi-dwarf). We have our own bees as well. Pollination is not an issue.

Most years we have apples to such abundance, I have to can them, and put aside some for winter storage and use a lot in season, and still have so many we push them toward the back of the property with a front end loader to clear the drops up.

Last year, we had no killing freezes, but several of the trees didn't bloom, and of those blooming, fruit did not set. It was a dismal apple year. Period. Peaches did not do well, either. Plums, persimmon and apricot.......whole different story. I don't know what was going on, could not see evidence of disease and am hoping it was a fluke. I asked a friend who has a large, commercial orchard how his season went and if he experienced a similar problem and he said no, it was a decent year. Don't know what was going on here, but you are not alone and some years are flukes it it happens.

Hmm. Well, hopefully last spring was a fluke though I really wonder if I have some soil deficiency or disease or something. I am scheduled to get my bees end of April/early May. Lets hope the weather cooperates for that. Blossom happens early May for me.

I do think the reason for delayed fruiting is due to my lack of pruning skills, at least in part. Any pruning advice is most welcome and appreciated.

Dan

"I manage an awful lot of small orchards and the pollinators usually find the trees, even when there are alternative flowers available. What you should do is observe your flowering trees on a warm day- this should be your guide."

"Apple is a pretty good food source and always attract some honey bees, native bees & bumbles, even with multiple food sources."

I would generally agree with the above statements. I mentioned the possibility that bees may be choosing alternative pollen sources because it is a bit of a puzzle. The poster indicated:

1. Plenty of blooms on the tree.
2. Plenty of bees observed on the Goldenrod.
3. Other pollenizer trees in close proximity (Golden Delcious is listed as a pollenizer for Empire.)

Given that there wasn't a killing frost after the trees bloomed, I can't think of anything else that would result in no apple crop (Dan you didn't spray Sevin/carbaryl on the trees did you?)

Base on the info. Dan outlined, I can only think the bees might have preferred the field of Goldenrod to the apple blossoms.

I can't remember where I've read before that this can happen, but a quick Google came up with this from MU extension:

" Beehives are generally placed in commercial apple orchards as the king flowers open. If hives are brought in before this time, bees may forage flowers of other broad-leaved plants instead of the apple blossoms. For this reason, dandelion flowers should be removed by mowing or by herbicide treatment before hives are placed in the orchard."

Here is a link that might be useful: MU - Pollinating Fruit Crops

Sevin was not sprayed. Carbryl.. I will need to check labels but I do not believe I sprayed this. I did not spray anything during bloom.

I mentioned Sevin (active ingredient carbaryl) because in addition to being an insecticide it also used as a chemical thinner. If sprayed too early or at a dosage too high it will remove the whole crop. It doesn't have to be sprayed at bloom to remove the crop, it has thinning activity on the fruitlets as well.

Goldenrod, at least around here, doesn't bloom at the same time as apples. I don't think that could be it.

>>Base on the info. Dan outlined, I can only think the bees might have preferred the field of Goldenrod to the apple blossoms. Goldenrod bloom in late summer and early fall.

One concept to bear in mind is that even though an apple tree blooms and the flowers are pollinated, there is no guarantee that it will fruit. The tree's internal determinants for fruiting may just have it abort its crop. As trees mature(and fruiting age is dependent on rootstock type) this generally becomes less likely. My advice is to just make sure that you are meeting the basic needs of the tree: adequate water and sunlight, a pest program that works and proper pruning techniques. Most likely with this and a little more patience you'll have plenty of apples. Yes, there are instances where things like lack of pollinators or soil deficiencies can cause problems, but in your case as you've described it, I would not look there first.

If there is ample bloom on all varieties then that would be one thing but if the bloom is almost all on Empire than there could be a pollination issue right there.

The best way to prune when you don't really know what you're doing is not to prune, except to remove branches more than a third the diameter of the trunk at point of attachment. Otherwise let the tree grow until it begins to bear fruit and then start to select permanent scaffolds.

The thicker the ratio of the branch to the trunk or dominant branch it's attached to the less fruitful and more vegetative it will be. For spurry varieties such as Goldrush, Empire, Ark Black, etc., this is not so much an issue and you certainly can keep branches up to a half the diameter on these with no delay in fruiting.

Yes, I've often read about bees preferring dandelions to fruit blossoms, I just haven't seen this actually occur in the field, in fact many dandelion splashed fields.

"Goldenrod, at least around here, doesn't bloom at the same time as apples. I don't think that could be it."

"Goldenrod bloom in late summer and early fall."

The OP mentioned bees on the Goldenrod in the fall. I missed that.

My last thoughts. Best advice on this thread:

1. As Hman noted, make sure compatible pollinizers are blooming at the same time.

2. Observe the apple blossoms this Spring to make sure bees are visiting the blooms.

3. Give the tree a little more time. As Creekweb mentions, young trees will abort fruit. I've never observed it when a tree is "full" of blossoms, but apple trees in 4th leaf are still somewhat young and Creekweb's advice might prove truest.

"apple trees in 4th leaf are still somewhat young and Creekweb's advice might prove truest."

Hell I'm losing it. Counting on my fingers, I see your tree is in the 5th leaf not the 4th - 2007-2011. Still somewhat young for an apple, but double check the pollination issues.

You could have a variety of things going on. I'm thinking it's also an young age/pruning issue and that perhaps you've overdone it on the fertiliser.

As part of the differential diagnosis, trying hand pollinating only certain branches on the Empire tree. And mark them so you'll know if they are the only ones with fruit.

I suppose if you are really concerned - you could take a tissue sample and have it analyzed...

If we make the giant leap that it isn't just a young tree and that there are plenty of pollinators available - it could potentially be some sort of mineral deficiency... although this isn't particularly common on new plantings....

I second the motion to get out your handy paintbrush and take a stab at hand pollinating a branch or 2 yourself...

Thanks

Crab Apple is a great Pollinator, as is Winter Banana. You can put Crab apple blossom branches in a quart jar of water and heng them in the tree this year. Also consider adding a bit of Boron under the trees. I would suggest at least a tablespoon of boric acid around the drip-line asap, or better yet, spray it on the trees just as the flowers are starting to open. 1 TBSP Boric acid, = a TBSP of some spreader sticker in 3 gallons of water.

Interesting problem...we have some goldens that are pretty light setters, but having virtually nothing is a bit odd.

When the bees were flying, did you notice them in your trees? Did you look at the pollen sacks to see if they were actually gathering pollen? The pollen could have been dry and not viable.

I don't think lack of pollenizers is an issue at all. That golden tree should really be all you need. Golden is an excellent pollen source.

Based on what you said, I don't think it was frost. Your pears were ok and you didn't have honeycrisp...and HC is a tough little bugger.

What about hot temperatures in the month or so after bloom? That could cause an ethylene response to cause them to abort. Same thing with carbaryl...carbaryl with warm temps is even worse.

Did you cut open any of your fruitlets to see if they had seeds?

As for competitive pollen sources, I wouldn't worry too much. Bees like apples. We don't worry about mowing dandelions...and we have a thousand acres of fruit trees.

"As for competitive pollen sources, I wouldn't worry too much. Bees like apples. We don't worry about mowing dandelions...and we have a thousand acres of fruit trees."

JRM,

That's a big operation! Do you have to rent hives for pollination?

Also consider adding a bit of Boron under the trees. I would suggest at least a tablespoon of boric acid around the drip-line asap, or better yet, spray it on the trees just as the flowers are starting to open. 1 TBSP Boric acid, = a TBSP of some spreader sticker in 3 gallons of water.

Everyone seems fixated on pollen, but with boron deficiency, the pollen tube fails to germinate and do its thing. I'd check with your state Agri. Extension office about Boron Deficiency It is a very common cause of failure to set fruit in apple. Also, do you get a full day's sun? Excessive shading is another factor in low fruit set.

http://www.borax.com/agriculture/files/an201.pdf

Here is an image of my empire blooming. The Boron idea may be something. I suspect this image is going to get me a whupping from the pruning folks on here. It shows the blossoms quite well I think.

I did not notice bees on my flowers in the spring. That is not to say they were or were not there. I did not open any fruit to look for seeds either. The weather was also quite hot and dry for a time. That may have been a factor.

Where is the spring??

Here is a link that might be useful:

olpea,

Yes we rent quite a few hives. We shoot for about one hive per acre on apples and 2-3 per acre on cherries and pears.