Binaboo:

I am sorry to have to tell you this, but all three of the apple varieties you have selected are inappropriate for your climate, and it is not likely you will ever see an apple on any of them.

One of the problems is chilling hour requirements, which you will not meet, but there will be other problems as well. Cox's Orange Pippin, of English origin, is known as one of the trickiest of all apple varieties to grow; subject to rots, cracks, blemishes, and overall mayhem. Red Astrachan is a Russian apple, and its head must be spinning to find itself in S. Florida. I have not grown White Pearmain, but believe it is also English in origin (or possibly French), and, like all heirloom apples, will have issues even aside from the chilling problems.

Where did you turn for advice on variety selection? Varieties appropriate to your climate would be things like Dorsett Golden, Anna, Ein Sheimer etc. that have almost no chilling requirements and are much better adapted to your sub-tropical conditions.

Don Yellman, Great Falls, VA

Well crap. You are right about the origins and the White Pearmain is an English origin. I did A LOT of reading. There was an online book that gave a plethora of information on growing apple in souther climates. I think the title was something along the lines of Growing Apples in south California. (I can probably find it if I really looked. I printed it out to keep for reference) It was speaking mostly of zones 9 and 10 so I figured it would more than likely apply to me too. It had a list, atleast 75 long, of varieties that were considered low chill and could strive in warm zones. I went through them, closely considering the kinds of apples I wanted and then cross referenced them with varieties offered by Trees of Antiquity. In both the book and on the T of A site, they were listed as low chill. It was also my understanding that I wouldn't get blooms if I didn't have the chill hours. I certainly have blooms (many this year on Cox but also a few early blooms on both Red and White that didn't make it.) Why would I not be able to get fruit if they bloom and how could I have been steared down this path if it's not even remotely possible? I'm pretty bummed.

I've put a considerable amout of work into them over the last 16 months or so. I think they were 2 or 3 year old trees when I bought them. Would it even be worth while to leave them as a part of my landscape or are they going to look bad as they get (or try to get) bigger?

Thanks for your help Don
Kristiina

Ok well I just went onto T of A again to look-up the discription on them.

Cox's Orange Pippen
"Produces and excellent apple in cooler summer climates. Zones 4-10"

Red Astrachan
"Zones 4-10"

White Pearmain
"Well adapted to coastal districts of California including southern Cali. Zones 5-10"

I'm not a cooler summer climate but I am coastal. What gets me is that all are listed as doing well in zone 10. Does that include fruiting or just growing? I'm kinda peeved because I feel like T of A has a decieving description there if they really wont do well where I am.

Kristiina

Kristiina:

I hope I am wrong, but only time will give the final answer. I do not, however, place any degree of confidence in the assurances of a specialty nursery like Trees of Antiquity. They are in the business of selling trees. To say that any apple variety is "well adapted" to such wide climatic variations included in zones 4-10 just makes no sense to me.

The fact you have blossoms, at least in this cycle, appears to indicate adequate chill, but I wouldn't be in a hurry to make the final judgment on that. One other thing that nurseries like Trees of Antiquity do not tell you is that many, if not most of the "heirloom" apples present special difficulties that may require unusually rigorous programs of spraying for disease prevention. I went through an heirloom apple phase about 20 years ago, and that is over now.

If there is one of the varieties that may have a better chance than others, it is the Red Astrachan, a very early culinary apple good for sauce. I have had a Cox's Orange here in conditions much better than yours, and have had one good harvest in over 15 years. My summers are normally too hot and humid for this apple. The apples were good, nice and crisp with a sweet/tart flavor, but not nearly so good as Fuji, all things considered. All of the other seasons, even those with a good fruit set, have resulted in rotten or severely cracked apples. I just keep this tree around for old times sake, but I do care for it and give it the same spray program as the others, which is fairly rigorous in my case.

Don Yellman, Great Falls, VA

Kristiina:

White Winter Pearmain is an outstanding selection for your climate. It will have no problems fruiting and is a fair keeper. You can wait until they ripen on the tree or pick a bit green and let them ripen off the tree.

Red Astrachan is a classic low-chill apple that does well because the thick leaves shield the fruit from the searing sun. It ripens early summer and does not keep well off the tree, so use it quickly. Old timers swear it is the best for pies.

Cox will need some type of shade cloth in order not to turn to mush on the tree. A better choice if you're looking for a Cox-type apple is Queen Cox self-fertile or Tydeman's Late Orange, both bomb-proof in blazing summers and warm winters.

I'd also recommend Williams Pride and Gold Rush, two disease-resistant types that are outstanding in a hot climate.

As for the ants, they will continue to denude your tree if you don't address them. Tanglefoot sticky goo around the base of the tree (and stake) will keep them out, Andro Ant Block bait will kill them all.

Applenut

Here is a link that might be useful: Growing Apples in a Warm Climate

Applenut:

Is it possible you are applying experiences of Southern California to a climate situation that is different from yours in several respects? When heat is combined with the normally higher humidities of the East and South, I would not expect results to be the same. Dry California nights also tend to cool down a lot more than average summer nights in Southern Florida. It would be more persuasive if I were to hear comments like yours from someone in Southern Florida, or even Louisana, Alabama, or Mississippi. Also, you seem to be saying that chill hours for most apple varieties are irrelevant. Perhaps they are; I can't prove they are necessary since I have the chill here and am never without it over the dormant season, but I have read about the need for chilling hours for the past 30 years or so.

I hope you are correct and that Kristiina's apples do well, but I would be interested to hear the results from her after she has given her apple trees a fair chance for three or four seasons. I learned some time ago to view claims from California nurseries with a skeptical eye, since I can't replicate California climate or growing conditions here.

Don Yellman, Great Falls, VA

Don:

Your skeptiscism is well-merited, and I respect your opinion as I generally agree with your outstanding advice. Your views are also supported by 98% of university and master gardener programs.

My opinion on apples in warm climates is not based on our experiences here in So. California alone. Apples are grown commercially in Honduras, Nicaragua, Thailand, the Philippines, Indonesia, and Mexico (I currently have a client in Puerto Rico that has 30 apple cultivars). A group of Vermont apple growers has a program called Farmer to Farmer that is assisting Honduran farmers in developing an apple industry that specializes in processed products that are more efficient to transport down their terrible roads.
{{gwi:71655}}

The cultivars grown include the usual suspects, Anna and Dorsett Golden, but also some surprises: Wealthy, Rome Beauty, Princess Nobel. Rome Beauty is said to be especially flavorful when grown in a tropic climate. The main reason apple farming in southeast asia is not more widespread is- you guessed it- cheap imports from China, just like latin America is flooded with Washington State apples.

I am certain that the chilling hours assumption for apples is wrong. We had one of the coldest winters in recent memory here in So. Calif that cost billions in crop losses. Yet because of the long warm periods in the 90's inbetween frosts, we still add up to only about 400 chilling-hours, well below the published limit for most apples. Yet we're able to grow just about any apple variety we want (wish I could say the same for peaches and apricots, those disease-ridden bug-infested wussy-fruited termpremental chilling-hour monkeys).

And despite our fame for a dry climate, last summer was a miserable muggy, sticky hot one with 80% humidity and 114 degree temps. The mountains trap the thunderstorms and tease us with big thunderheads, but we never got the rain, only humidity. Williams Pride blossomed during a 105 degree April and ripened during the 114 degree July/August with outstanding fruit quality. I'm excited as to what this year holds.

Applenut

Check with your county's Extension Service office. Likely they have Master Gardeners who can give you information and/or publications that suit your region and climate.

In my humble opinion, Red Astrachan is a subpar apple. I had a tree that bore for a couple of years and ripped it out over the winter. Just not good tasting, and very mushy. And I didn't find the applesauce to be any better than applesauce made from other varieties. If you are going to grow a couple of apple trees and cope with all the problems of disease, chilling hours, bugs, etc., you might as well grow a variety that you can eat of hand.

My two cents,

Nimzo

Well guys, I never expected to start such a debate. I'm sure glad I did though. You both certainly know your stuff. Sorry I wasn't around this weekend to comment back. I was busy planting in the garden. ;-)

Don, it's funny that you asked who I got my info from. When I saw the link that applenut so kindly provided, I realized that the book I was talking about is the book that is provided by Kufflecreek. I think I must have come acoss it when it was still provided for free. It was a wealth of info and I'm certainly glad I printed it! It has been a great guide for training me how to train my branches. :-)

Thanks for the suggestion on Tanglefoot. I took a look at their site and it looks like just the stuff I need. I'm going to need to take a look at that bait trap too. I think that's how I'm going to need to kill off those nasty little suckers! (now rereading, it looks like I may have read about tanglefoot elsewhere, in another thread) *blush* Well, it good info...to anyone else reading this looking for answers!

I'm glad that there are more varieties that are well suited to sub-tropical growing. There's a chance that I might be getting into a 5 acre property and I will certainly plant more than 3 trees. :-) Now everybody cross your fingers for me!

The trees that I bought were supposed to be 2 years old (or so) and I have had them just over a year. I'm assuming that I 'should' start seeing fruit by next year. Right? Since these are part of my landscape and possibly not the best choice for my area, I'm going to treat them as I would any orchard tree and call it a bonus if I get a decent crop. I'll be sure to get NO CHILL that are NON-HEIRLOOM apples whenever I make it to another property.

Any advise on fertilizing 3 little trees? I wish I knew how to convert applications for large orchards. It'll make sence to me one day :-)

Thanks again Jellyman and Applenut! You're the man...eh hem...MEN!

Kristiina

Jean, thanks for the advice. I tried going that route last year before I found the kufflecreek e-book. They had no idea. The woman just flat out told me that apples wont work here and that she's never heard of low-chill apples. I trust the local offices about 1/2 as much as I trust my own research. She said the same thing for grapes and I've found many that will work in my climate...I just haven't had the time to get them or the arbor up! hehehe

Nimzo, you might be right but I've yet to taste anything from any of the trees. I've put this much into it, I might as well taste the fruit, even if it isn't as good as it could be. I know I'm not going to be at this property forever. I might even plant something different once I get to a new place. Maybe I'll do one of everone that is good for the sub-tropics...who knows. I'm young and I have time. I really appreciate your opinion. At this point though I'd just love to be able to make my own apple sauce. I'd have nothing to compare to but store bought...uck. :-P

Kristiina

Been lurking here with interest, and have a few comments plus a ??? now of my own.

I'm a "10" here in Ca. too - and have 2 trees now about 2 and 3 year old apples - the much touted Anna and Dorsett Golden, to be exact.

My new problem is with "Anna" - that I thought from the start would be a winner. Now I'm not so sure, and especially reading some of the comments of late, perhaps it will prove problematic after all.

It seemed to be a precocious youngster - and yielded a nice crop of sauce apples with a bit of tart that I prefer. It then took a heck of a long time to lose leaves, and now a long time to start bloom again - despite some nice warm weather. It now is beginning to put out some new growth.

On the other hand, the Dorsett, has fruit set already, and coming along nicely. Perhaps it will be "my" winner after all.

About Tanglefoot - I use it primarily on my orange trees - which the ants seem to prefer. My method for application may be of interest. I wrap duct tape around the tree - one turn, reverse the tape to sticky side out, for a couple of rounds, then back to sticky side in again. The seams are then smeared with the Tanglefoot. It needs replacing if the ants bridge over, but not much problem. It may be a good idea to remove the tape on young trees, so as not to hinder trunk growth. Seems to work quite well.

Also, I'm surmising you live around the Keys - am I right? There are several very healthy fruit that I noted that liked that climate - in particular the Key limes - so great for pies, and the many types of citrus of course.

The area around Fort Myers grows some of the greatest tomatoes as well. If you are near the water, chances are there is a "microclimate" which we in Ca., are also familiar with.

Do you grow mangoes? What other fruit trees do you have? I'm assuming coconut too -

I also have started a low chill peach here (Bonanza) - this is only it's second year in the ground - but it produced some tasty peaches - was truly surprised. I managed to give it a lime sulfur spray before rains, and it looks healthy (whee!).

Don't give up the ship - let us know how things work out for you.

P.S. I'd give my eye-teeth to grow a poinciana.

Just my 2 c's.

Bejay

Oh man Bejay! I hear you! We have Poinceana trees in just about every other yard here but I'm partial to the cassia tree (less leaf and seed pod litter). I am in Lee County which is where Ft. Myers is located. I am sure I have a micro climate. I'm less than 3 miles from the coast. Granted I have Sanibel, Captiva and Pine Island as barrier islands in between me and the Gulf but I'm right there on the other side of the intercoastal.

This is a brand new house that we built and have only been in for about a year. Last year I got Blueberries and stuck them in pots because I didn't know where I wanted them. I succesfully killed them but not before I saw that Gulfcoast does much better than SharpBlue. I have a spot in mind for them but it looks like I'll have to wait for next winter. :-( So far I have planted 2 gigantic Areca Palms (for a little screening) I have the 3 apple trees, 1 Pom Wonderful and 1 Garden Prince Almond. I recently cleared a spot for an herb garden. I will be planting 2 kinds of basil, sage, rosemary, parsley, oregano and mint this week. I also have spots ready for beans, peas (i'm probably too late) cucs, 4 kinds of peppers and 2 kinds of toms. I already have 8 spots picked out for 4 kinds of oranges, 1 lemon, 1 lime, 1 grapefruit and 1 mandarine. I'm also planning on 3 coconut palms (those suckers take years to fruit! Almost a decade!) The coconut palms are going to be more for the hammocks! Oh and I have 4 passion Fruit and I'm getting ready to get 2 Kiwi (well really one, just one male one female). As soon as hubby gets the pergola up, I'm doing 4 kinds of grapes. When he gets the arbors done over the 2 gates, I was thinking about climbing roses but knowing me it'll probably be an edible instead. I really want to find space for a coffee plant, peanuts and sugar cane! Then I'm done...promise...or so I tell my hubby! ;-) hehehe

I'd love bananas but hear they are messy. I wouldn't mind peaches or plums but I don't really have a whole lot of room. I would do plum before peach but hubby says he only likes the dark skin, dark fleshed, sweet plums and I don't know enough yet. I am patiently waiting for the day that I have acreage. I'm hoping it's sooner than later. I recently found 5 acres that is affordable for me but it's in the middle of no where, down a LONG dirt road and I fear that I would no longer have friends visiting me since I am the only person I know with 4x4. :-( Which would you choose...tree or friends? hahahaha

I don't plan on jumping ship anytime soon. :-) I love growing things that I can eat. I have a really hard time planting things that don't do double duty as both eye pleasing landscape and also nourish my (hopefully soon to be) growing family. I'm slowly eradicating the grass and I'm loving every bit of it! Except the back breaking part! Ouch! Once I get a managable patch I'm going to plant low, xeriscape ground cover. Then I'm selling the lawn mower! I will certainly share my experiences. If I can get my camera to cooperate tonight, I'll try to take a few pictures of the apples. They are looking so pretty now that they are starting to bloom. Even my coworkers are giong out of their way to drive by my house. I love it! Thanks for the chat time...I needed it...now back to work. :-(

Kristiina

I choose - dirt roads, 4 x 4's, and trees. After all, friends come and go. Trees may go on forever - hooray!

Bejay

You're my kinda gal Bejay! I would much rather acreage, dirt roads, 4x4's and trees BUT it's dear ol' hubby that I need to convince. When we went to go look at the property a few days ago all he kept saying was "NOBODY will come see us". The further we went down the dirt road the more emphatic the statement got! I'm trying to tell him that it's only a matter of time before the road gets paved but it's a good 2-3 miles that needs paving! I keep reminding him that our kids can grow up on a property that they can have a pond and ride dirt bikes and 4-wheelers at HOME. Next all I have to do is build a chicken coop and I could be completely self contained! What a dream!

I'll keep you posted on the apples. ;-)

Kristiina

Yup - with all those trees, you definitely need chickens.

My "coop" turned out to be an on-line order for a chain link dog kennel, that I laboriously surrounded with 1/2 inch hardware cloth (to deter mice/rats/possums, etc.), also underneath. The top is covered with corrugated panels and I had to fashion a plywood door.

It was kind of fun, as I'd never really raised chickens before, but I had a lot of help and "hand-holding" from the Farm Forum. If your local "governors" allow it, I highly recommend chickens - they are fun. Although the feed costs a bit, I find as time goes on, I can feed them all of my "also ran" veggies, and "bad meatloaves" and they produce a lot of nice eggs and mainly fertilizer. Which, afterall, is why you need the fertilizer you were asking about - when you said "what to fertilizer trees with" - remember?

Just my 2 c's.

Bejay