stinging nettle infusion

What is it that needs cleansing?

my dog's kidney's Eric, on the advice of her chiropractor.

You mean the adjustment didn't take?

Based on what chiropractors know about renal function, I'd go with your vet's advice.

If a chiropratic adjustment does not hold, it can be a sign of a serious problem. Forty years ago, a chiropractor kept telling me to get my kidneys checked out, because a certain adjustment was not holding for me. I was, unfortunately not able to get a physician to listen to me. After 7 years, I finally went to see a urologist who took x-rays which showed that I was born with kidney problem which is always fatal but which can be corrected surgically. Almost everyone with the problem dies in infancy. The oldest survivor had the surgery at age 12, and I was 35 when I had mine. My survival is considered a miracle, but that miracle would soon have come to an end. If I listened to physicians, I would not be here to tell you about it. That chiropractor saved my life.

the adjustment did take but the chiro recommended a kidney cleanser at that time to assist the problem. Thanks

It remains a mystery why there continues to be a market for the various "cleanses".

You can find a variety of sites and individuals claiming that their products cleanse the colon, the liver, the gallbladder, the kidney - none of which have been proven to have any medical benefit (and some of which can be hazardous).

As long as people can be convinced that they are harboring some sort of toxic buildup and they will feel better after being "flushed", these venerable scams will continue.

Too bad pets get involved.

Do you think it will hurt the pets, Eric?

Pets or humans, both take risks when using drugs. It's one thing for adults, but children and pets can't make an informed choice about trying unnecessary and potentially toxic remedies.

Pets also are less able to communicate their symptoms, and it may take longer for a problem to come to our attention.

I have a retriever on a glucosamine/chondroitin supplement (controversial as an arthritis remedy, but tentatively recommended for a trial by our veterinarian). I wouldn't ever subject our dog to an organ "cleanse".

Good for you Eric - trying something controversial on your retriever. I have seen the results on my golden. She periodically had periods of stiffness as she has severe arthritis. I now feed her large breed senior food with glucosamine and she gets a daily dose in pill form. No more stiffness or periods of discomfort. Now - I'm a daily dose user myself!!!!!! Can't tell me it doesn't work!

By the way, Eric, do you recommend drinking lots of water to "flush toxins" from the body????

True Dandelion is one of the best cleansers if used on a regular basis.
It also does more than cleanse.
The web page below mentions why.
http://www.herbsarespecial.com.au/newpages/book/sample/sample22.html

There are no studies or scientific literature references listed on the web page documenting dandelion's usefulness as a "cleanser" or in any of the myriad other diseases or conditions for which it is touted.
Makes a decent salad green, though.

Excessive water intake can in itself be toxic. And except in the relatively few cases of documented poisonings and toxic exposures, there is no need (except maybe a psychological one) to "flush toxins" from the body.

Eric,
when i first thought of joining this forum,I looked through the past 2 years of postings,and what hit me was what a negative person you are.

"we" dont need to be protected from our own openess to new POSSIBILITIES by someone blinded by his absolute blind faith in what the "scientific" community has to say.

this is about discussion and openess,and you dont encourage either.

What strikes me after several years of participating in this forum, is the importance of responding to differing views with convincing evidence in a civil manner.

When proponents of herbalism and other "alternative" therapies perceive questioning and challenges to firmly held beliefs as assaults on orthodoxy requiring personal attack, then they are falling prey to the same failings they claim to see in conventional medicine.

"this is about discussion and openess..."

Agreed.

So, Eric, we shouldn't believe our MDs when they continually encourage us to drink more water - especially when we have a cold or the flu?????

MDs encourage fluid intake to replace losses sustained in certain illnesses (including respiratory infections). There's a big difference between replacing lost fluids and drinking lots of excess fluids in a misguided attempt to "flush toxins".

Excess water can be harmful. It can even kill you.

I don't think we were talking about athletes here. Of course, anything, taken to excess is not healthy. My MD as well as a few nurses that I have talked to, encourages drinking water during an illness to "flush" the medication (if any) and "toxins" out of your body....exactly what you claim nothing can do. I guess I am confused.............

None of the scientific literature, respected medical websites or health professionals that I know subscribe to the toxin/flush theory. And as to any doctor or nurse supposedly recommending "flushing medications" out of your body, one would have to wonder why such people would administer drugs to you in the first place, if they were "toxic" and had to be "flushed out".

The human body is very good at metabolizing drugs and converting them to inactive substances that are then eliminated (the liver in particular has enzyme systems that accomplish this readily). And in case of an overdose, gulping lots of water is not going to be the efficient, effective or safe way to counter the problem.

"None of the scientific literature, respected medical websites or health professionals that I know subscribe to the toxin/flush theory"

Unless you'd like to subscribe to the advice of Dr Gerald M. Lemole, MD.....who (quoting Amazon books)"has been chief of cardiovascular surgery at the Christiana Care Health Services of Delaware since 1986. He was formerly chief of cardiac surgery at Temple University in Philadelphia and the Deborah Heart & Lung Center in Brown Mills, New Jersey Dr. Lemole serves on the Health Policy Development Committee of the Society of Thoracic Surgeons and is a professor of surgery at Thomas Jefferson University Medical College and clinical assistant professor at the University of Pennsylvania School of Medicine. A past recipient of the American Medical Association Physician's Recognition Award, he has written numerous articles for professional publications and has lectured extensively around the world. Dr. Lemole has been prominently featured in Delaware Today's and Philadelphia magazine's Best Doctors issues"....advises....

"to drink 6-8 glasses of filtered spring water each day to reduce cholesterol and ...expel waste products from the body faster"

He also advises this in conjunction with exercise, good diet, vitamin and mineral supplementation, and reduced stress.

Sounds like a flush theory to me.

John

Oops touchy subject - but when constipated - isn't it advisable to drink extra water to move the stool in order to "flush" your system??? Obviously, I don't use the "proper" terms as I am not in the medical field but I have always heard this. Also, I was told by a nurse that water acts like "osmosis" when you are ill and absorbs the bacteria and "toxins" that are invading your body. I guess all of these drs and RNs are WAY off track. And I guess I am wrong in believing that all "drugs" ARE toxic.
Who would have known.....................

Without knowing specifically what Dr. Lemole was referring to, it is certainly possible that as Tressa mentions, he was referring to adequate hydration to relieve constipation. I don't see anything about "toxins" or "organ flushes" in that line.

By the way, good to see you back, John. When we were last posting in a thread here before your absence, I had asked you what your healthcare background was - in particular whether you had trained as a naturopath. Can you now respond to that?

Come to think of it, maybe Dr. Lemole is promoting a "flush theory".

If you routinely drink up to 8 glasses of water a day, you'll wind up doing a lot of flushing. ;)

I'm a naturopath Eric, and a Happy New Year to you too. Still stirring up the herbalism forum I see!
Herbs and nutrition are my areas of specialty.

I drink about 8 glasses of water each day Eric, never felt better.

John

"Still stirring up the herbalism forum I see! "

Nope, engaging in discussion and hoping that the editorial comments and personal asides can be dispensed with.

Do you drink 8 glasses of filtered spring water daily as Lemole recommends, or take it as it comes from the tap? And do you think there would be any significant difference (aside from taste and cost)?

I have a reverse osmosis unit instaled on my home kitchen tap, so am lucky enough to have access to as much purified water as needed.

I prefer pure water over the content and taste of our local supply (chlorine, rust particles, organic material etc). We recently had a pool intalled, and observing the odour, colour and composition of the water when pumped from the main outside our house only reinforces the wisdom of our decision to drink purified water.

If i was going to flush, I'd flush with purified water.

John

Yes, John, our best bet is to flush with purified water. I have a neighbor who works for our local water department and he told me "DON'T DRINK THE WATER"!!!! Have it filtered.......

about a year ago i was at this party and for some reason (i regret it now) i took 3 hydro codones while drunk and i got this really bad pain in my kidney and liver area as soon as i got home i drank this detox tea by yogi teas. It made the pain go away hopefully its healed.

While there are no scientific studies on 'kidney cleanses' there are plenty of studies on diuretics - these are important in allopathic, naturopathic, and most other systems of medicine.

It's merely a matter of terminology - the same geeks that ridicule the term 'alkaline diet' will (under duress) admit that consuming a diet rich in fruits and vegetables, with lots of magnesium, calcium, and potassium (and little sodium) can in fact lower blood pressure and benefit the heart, just as the alkanizers claim.

When the conquistadors visited Peru, they thought their quipu were some kind of religious macrame - the lack of a 'written' language was proof the people were savages.

The reason there aren't a lot of 'studies' on cleanses, etc., is because your kidneys aren't 'dirty' and don't need cleaning under normal circumstances! Neither does your liver (sorry France!) or any other organ apart from your skin. The body is quite capable of taking care of itself and flushing out anything that's not needed or wanted and doctors just laugh when you mention these very out-of-date approaches to them... they know better than to spend money on them, but basically ignore them now as most won't hurt already healthy people anyway. If you are sick, you should a) not diagnose yourself, b) go and see a doctor who's in a much better position to decide what's wrong and what to do about it!

The skin is not the only organ that needs to be cleaned, Lucy. Most of us find it necessary to brush our teeth. And some of us were taught that is proper to scrape our tongues to remove the sludge that builds up there. I personally practice Jala Neti to rinse my sinuses daily. Many 'modern doctors' are now recommending this traditional procedure under the fancy name of 'saline nasal irrigation.' (see link at end of post).

If the body is so capable of taking care of itself, why do docs write thousands and thousands of prescriptions for diuretics each year? Why stimulate the kidneys to excrete more if no help is needed? Hypertension and kidney stones are two common conditions that suggest that the kidneys are not as superhuman as you suggest.

And why the millions of doses of statins every year to tune up the liver and reduce cholesterol production?? Everyone's liver is fine, right??

The terminology that might be used to describe the benefits of a traditional practice may not jive with modern terminology. The explanation given for why something is done, or how something works may be entirely wrong. That doesn't mean that there isn't something there.

Traditional cultures and religions incorporate things like fasting or dietary modification as part of the normal calendar (Lent, Ramadan, etc) and the occasional bitter or purgative herb rituals (Passover, Panchakarma). Traditional cultures believe that there are benefits from periodically changing the routine and stimulating the liver, kidneys, or overall metabolism in certain ways. They use these rituals to mark the daily, weekly or annual rhythms.

Your free to pooh-pooh these traditions and assume that there simply can be no benefit to the populations that follow them because ... well, there can't. After all, they are uneducated people that speak in terms that are weird.

The whole idea of a day of rest might as easily be dismissed by 'science' - without need for testing it. It's a very out-of-date approach for living, and there are no placebo controlled scientific studies to support such quaint notions. Therefore, it is all un-scientific nonsense. Case closed. (?)

Here is a link that might be useful: Saline Nasal Irrigation (repackaging the ancient yoga practice of Jala Neti)

I think what lucy is referring to is the erroneous idea that "toxins" build up in our internal organs and the belief that these organs need supplements or "cleanses" to do their job - which is generally not the case. The products advertised as "cleansing" do not accomplish anything except purging the wallet of cash.

Diuretics are not used to "cleanse" the kidney - their role is to eliminate excess fluid that may be due to a variety of causes, including cardiovascular disease.

Statins similarly are not part of some general "tuneup" of the liver, they have a specific cholesterol-lowering action which is beneficial in some people - in a few, significant liver damage can result from their use.

The idea that we're wallowing in harmful toxins and that some over the counter or Internet product can flush them out, is one of the most pervasive fallacies in alternative medicine. Not that it's entirely new - the fascination with enemas dates back at least for hundreds of years. One thing we should be grateful for is that the hallowed concept of "bleeding" patients to drive out ill humors is long gone. :)

Diuretics do stimulate the kidneys to excrete more fluid than they would normally do, but also typically 'flush' certain salts, electrolytes and other chemicals from the blood.

Yes, I know that statins lower cholesterol. Whether you want to call it a specific intervention or a 'tune-up' as I did, you miss my point. Many people produce cholesterol in their livers at levels that contribute to heart disease. This is a form of auto-intoxication that is common. There would be no need for statins if Lucy was correct and our livers were as healthy as she portrays it.

As to the merit of various commercial products that make various claims - there are too many to comment upon, and I don't use anything packaged as a cleanse. But I do use herbs and foods as part of cleanses.

The use of enemas dates back thousands of years (not hundreds), both as a cleansing practice, and a way of delivering substances into the body. The Gershon protocol for pancreatic cancer features coffee enemas as a prominent feature, and the coffee administered via enema is metabolized differently than coffee taken orally - it misses the digestive enzymes and circulates to the organs differently.

Bleeding can be overdone, but can also have its benefits for some. I feel better in the month after I give blood, and it isn't just because I know that my donation might help someone. :)

Excretion of electrolytes from the body is typically a problematic side effect of diuretics that requires careful monitoring and supplementation when needed. And I'm not aware of any legitimate medical "detoxification" that is achieved by diuretics.

High cholesterol occurs primarily for two reasons - diet and/or genetics. It is not a sign that one's liver needs "cleansing".

As for the Gerson method of treating cancer, it has some potential for creating toxic effects, but is of no value as anticancer therapy.

"Between 1980 and 1986 at least 13 patients treated with Gerson therapy were admitted to San Diego area hospitals with Campylobacter fetus sepsis attributable to the liver injections. None of the patients was cancer-free, and one died of his malignancy within a week. Five were comatose due to low serum sodium levels, presumably as a result of the "no sodium" Gerson dietary regimen. As a result, Gerson personnel modified their techniques for handling raw liver products and biologicals. However, the Gerson approach still has considerable potential for harm. Deaths also have been attributed to the coffee enemas administered at the Tijuana clinic.

Charlotte Gerson claims that treatment at the clinic has produced high cure rates for many cancers. In 1986, however, investigators learned that patients were not monitored after they left the facility [19]. Although clinic personnel later said they would follow their patients systematically, there is no published evidence that they have done so. A naturopath who visited the Gerson Clinic in 1983 was able to track 21 patients over a 5-year period (or until death) through annual letters or phone calls. At the 5-year mark, only one was still alive (but not cancer-free); the rest had succumbed to their cancer."

Here is a link that might be useful: Cancer quackery

And by the way, teeth are not 'organs'. They do need cleaning because they're subject to any and everything we put in our mouths all day and because of their design catch and hold all kinds of things in cracks and crevices, but that's not the same thing at all! The reasons behind statins and other meds being needed is more likely due to our (now) awful diets, rather than the much healthier, sugar-free diets of the past, and our lack of proper exercise. Plus now that we live much longer, natural diseases of old age are prevalent whereas they never got much chance to appear when people lived only to 40 or 50 previously.

The teeth are not organs? Gee, that's a new one. But who are we going to trust - the IUPS Physiome Project, or our resident science expert? "Associated accessory organs such as the teeth, tongue and salivary glands begin the processes of mechanical and chemical digestion through mastication. ..."

Excretion of electrolytes is typically a problematic side effect? Maybe, depends on which electrolytes are being flushed by a particular diuretic (and the condition being treated). For those of us taking diuretics due to ion-transport problems, reducing the level of certain electrolytes is a good thing.

No condition is legitimately treated by diuretics causing 'detoxification'? Well, it depends on what your meaning of the word 'is' is. How about this statement from an encyclopedia: [Diuretics] are helpful in increasing excretion of substances such as aspirin in cases of overdose or poisoning."

If the build up of sodium to toxic levels (with hypertension and other symptoms) is treated with a diuretic, I would say that is a detoxification. But since you are convinced that the word detoxification is a sign of in-breeding and non-scientific thought, maybe it should not be considered detoxification.

There may have been problems with the original research on treating pancreatic cancer in Tijuana. Yet Columbia University has people that are replicating the work and their preliminary findings are that it works better than the standard treatment for that type of cancer. The main problem according to the researchers? People are too squeamish about enemas. Doctors are not comfortable with the idea. So they don't even consider it. Instead, they route their patients to painful, debilitating treatments that they know are ineffective for pancreatic cancer. They would rather use innefective injections of toxic compounds or concentrated doses of radiation rather than have someone be touched in their dirty private parts.

"In the pilot study, Gonzalez's treatment more than tripled the 5-1/2 month life expectancy of pancreatic cancer patients on standard treatment."

Here is a link that might be useful: NIH Funded Study of Cancer Using Enemas and Supplements

If you look up Gonzalez on the PubMed scientific literature database, you find a grand total of two published papers, one dealing with the use of pancreatic enzyme extract in nude mice. The other, regarding his "pilot study", involved a grand total of 10 patients (too small a number to make any judgments, even if you disregard the fact that this wasn't a proper double-blind, placebo-controlled trial).

After 8 years and at least $1.7 million in government funding, where's the evidence that his coffee enemas and zillions of supplements have done anything to improve survival for pancreatic cancer patients?

I can understand patients with this disease, who have a dismal outlook, grasping at any possibility of help. But it's depressing that our tax dollars are funding enema advocates when there are valid alternative and mainstream medicine projects out there needing support.

Note again that in critiquing "detoxification" regimens, I am referring to the fallacy that mysterious environmental "toxins" and normal bodily waste need to be purged from our internal organs with the aid of supplements and enemas, supposedly because those organs can't handle things otherwise. This is nonsensical.

Speaking of "dirty" bodily functions, the fascination with enemas seems to stem from the idea that our colons contain (gasp!) waste. This is normal, but a lot of people have trouble believing it.

Biologists at UC Berkeley are still teaching students that the foul urine odor some people experience after consuming asparagus is due to genetics. It is not true. The foul odor is the result of kidneys releasing toxins. If a person consumes asparagus for three or four days in a row, the odor will lessen day by day until there is no odor. If the kidneys do not have stored toxins, there is no initial odor. Asparagus is touted as a good "spring tonic" by natural practioners because of kidney cleaning effects. Parsley tea can also clean the kidneys. I cured an eldery dog of kidney disease by giving her parsley tea on her kibble daily. When she was twelve years old, tests showed kidney disease. When she was fifteen, tests showed no kidney disease. Please be aware that a member of this forum has stated in another thread that parsley can cause problems during pregnancy.

If only that was true about asparagus releasing "stored toxins" from the kidneys (I like asparagus).

Actually the the odd odor of urine produced after eating asparagus is due to metabolic breakdown of substances in the asparagus. Not everybody can produce (or smell) these metabolites, which is where genetics comes in.

More information. And even more.

If what you state were true, Eric, the odor would not change day by day when one consumes asparagus several days in a row. Those sources only cite experiments done against one day's consumption of asparagus.

Science reverses conclusions as a matter of course. True science is not finite, there is always more to be learned because somebody else sees the picture from a broader perspective. One biologist I know is of the opinion that science cannot prove anything, that science can only disprove. I don't agree with that statement, however, it is food for thought.

If the urine odor changed for some people over time, the reason might be as simple as this: the continued consumption of asparagus induces production of an enzyme that breaks the stinky metabolite down so that it doesn't appear in urine in sufficient quantity to cause an odor.

Your kidneys don't hold onto "toxins" until a handy vegetable happens along.

Pure malarky, Eric. Kidney stones are the byproduct of toxic waste, which the kidneys have not been able to eliminate. Old school naturalists believe that hot lemon water helps to break down such build-up and prevent stones from occuring.

I developed a kidney stone upon taking a course of Chinese herbal treatment under a doctor's auspices. The doctor changed the herbal regime, when I told him I had developed a horrible pain in one kidney, which prevented sleep. Within three herbal dosages, one and a half days, the problem was rectified. The ogiginal course of herbs was meant to detoxify. My body wasn't eliminating the released toxins quickly enough, so a stone formed. The second course of herbals was meant to break down the stone. It has been twenty years, I have had no further problems.

Causes of kidney stones:

"A kidney stone is a hard mass developed from crystals that separate from the urine and build up on the inner surfaces of the kidney...Kidney stones may contain various combinations of chemicals. The most common type of stone contains calcium in combination with either oxalate or phosphate. These chemicals are part of a person's normal diet and make up important parts of the body, such as bones and muscles. (italics added)...While certain foods may promote stone formation in people who are susceptible, scientists do not believe that eating any specific food causes stones to form in people who are not susceptible...A person with a family history of kidney stones may be more likely to develop stones. Urinary tract infections, kidney disorders such as cystic kidney diseases, and certain metabolic disorders such as hyperparathyroidism are also linked to stone formation."

Exactly right!

"While certain foods may promote stone formation in people who are susceptible, scientists do not believe that eating any specific food causes stones to form in people who are not susceptible..."

Double-talk!

Information from the National Kidney Foundation about dietary changes that may help people susceptible to stones avoid further problems.

People who don't get stones would not need to be concerned about this aspect of their diet.