Hi Frank, the standard recommendation is to get a good coat on first, using more concentration and multiple sprays, then re-apply when you see it thinning significantly. Don't go by whether it was raining or not, just get out and look at the trees -- some rains can be long but do no damage, and a couple hour deluge can do huge damage to the coverage. Start with maybe 3 cups per gallon then scale back to 1 1/2 -2 cups per gallon for refresher sprays. Sometimes a long rain period will take you back to nearly nothing and you may need to start all over.

I spray at first fruit sighting. I also tend to aim the spray more (but not solely - annoy the PC while he is walking around) at the apple areas and not at shoot tips; for JB you need to hit all the leaves.

Surround goes on all the above for me except pears which get backpack extras if any -- they are not nearly as susceptible to PC injury. For peaches and plums you can use Surround longer to also work on OFM (ditto for CM); I am not uniform on that, it depends how much moth damage I am seeing.

Lastly, I often tank mix Serenade and / or oil (and sometimes sulphur) with Surround. Make sure it is a drying oil (will dry and go away) or the Surround will stop flaking; Stylet oil and any mineral-type oil is a drying oil.

Scott

Thank you a bunch. I'll save a copy of this post to the desktop so i have the info always available.

So you do hit the cherries? I didn't spray my sour cherries last year and they did great (i did cover with bird netting that i found to be a MUST!).

Good to know about the oil.

For what i know!? I'm pretty sure i haven't had the OFM...YET, but i have read your posts in the past about that monster and hope to never meet him.

I'm trying to follow a more "organic" approach to things, and that is mostly because of two young children that will be around these trees, almost daily...

Thanks again, hopefully others can use this info too.

Frank, my cherries have not done very well in terms of fruiting so I have not paid them enough attention (yet). They are getting some worms in them but my impression has been they were OFM and not curculio, and I have not been spraying the Surround on them in curc season. Both curc and OFM are known to infest cherries. Oh, most of the worms are in the sweet cherries anyway, I would consider your sours to be OK unless you learn otherwise with experience.

Scott

Scott-

{{gwi:86657}}

I sprayed these Tomcots (after the photo was taken). I hope it wasn't too early?

Frank,

This is my second year using Surround. Although I live in the same general region as Scott my experience is a little different. First, with apples I use Surround until they are a size I can bag. I then bag them and forget them. This worked well last year. This year I have noticed a fair bit of PC damage on both my Asian pears and my Seckel pear. So don't assume they will not get hit.

I spray pears, apples, nectarine, peach and plum with Surround, at least early in the season.

Will PC attack cherries? Yes, especially if you put Surround on everything else they might like and don't cover the cherries. I lost a whole crop of North Star sour cherries last year when I did not spray them but sprayed allt the other fruits mentioned. PC want to survive: they may not prefer cherries, but if that is all that is left for them to reproduce on, they will hit them, and hard. The problem is that I don't want my cherries covered in clay. With the larger fruits I stop Surround at a certain point, and so the full size fruits are not covered in clay.

I am trying to avoid using synthetic pesticides. I am not an organic purist but I keep bees and I prefer to use materials that are less toxic to them and other critters. But I am not convinced that Surround is at all effective on Oriental Fruit Moth, and once that starts to hit I think you are going to have to use some sort of insecticide. I used Spinosad last year, but have concluded that given the limited number of applications it is listed for (and its cost), it is only worth using on fruit that ripens fairly early It did keep fruit moth at bay on my nectarine, but once I finished the registered number of applications (I think it was four) the fruit moth decimated the crop.

My strategy this year will be this: Surround early on; bag apples; possibly bag pears (my Asian pears were attacked by codling moth last year). Use nectarine as trap crop and spray permethrin on it; the fruit moth loves the nectarine, and I think in this way I can make a big dent in their population. Don't spray plums and peaches and hope for the best. The plan here is to make minimal use of permethrin but not to totally avoid it.

Thank you for the info. That was going to be my plan with the apples. I bagged last year and it worked great. Until the tree rats figured out what was in the bag! I think what saved me with the PC on the apples was the fungicide spray (it had insecticide in it too). That probably knocked out the PC. My apples are in full bloom right now, so i'm a little early yet :)

I have about a 1000sq ft of flower beds this year, so bees are a concern here too (this in a small yard!).

I really need to spray my plums. The PC smoked them last year.

Frank, I don't spray apricots until they are a bit bigger. The curc takes awhile to wake up, he is more in time with the plums and apples. This year my first spray was when they were about dime-sized (on the long axis); I had a few cots hit at that point but in terms of percent it was less than 5%.

Like Austransplant I also do not rely on Surround for OFM. I am still evolving my OFM control strategy so it varies a lot from year to year. I do feel it is good to keep spraying Surround to get any late curcs and at the same time to put a dent in the first generation OFM (if you hit that first generation back big time you will help out your whole season). I have been using several OFM strategies: mating disruption, pruning off flagging shoot tips, bagging with cotton bags, spinosad, and Surround. I haven't actually settled on my strategy for this year but I will certainly spray Surround through the first flight of OFM, and will have mating disruption up before that (which is in fact coming soon now, better get going!). I will also be peach (and cherry) tip pruning a couple times a week. One other thing to keep in mind is that summer pruning of all peach/cherry shoots after a flight is good timing, you just wiped out all the moth eggs or babies in those tips, and controlled the vigor of your trees at the same time. Beyond that, I will bag a few of each variety for both moth and squirrel protection, and will be using spinosad in time with the generation emergence which I will be monitoring in a trap (which I also need to get up now!).

My OFM suggestion for you guys if you are up to the bagging work is just get the cotton drawstring bags. I've done it for 3-4 years and it works, and if you tie it on to the limb you also control the squirrel damage as a bonus. If I didn't have 50 peach and plum trees to bag I would just go that route. The main downside is cost of the bags at 15-20 cents each (but, they can be reused; it depends on the quality, I have two batches and one is reusable and the other is fraying on the strings so is less easy to reuse).

Austransplant, I don't know if a trap tree is a good idea for us since the OFM has so many generations in Maryland. Unless you plan on regularly pulling off infected fruits, you will get a bigger later generation(s) in your whole orchard from that tree. Hey if you want some spinosad for cheaper drop me a line, I bought the big pack several years ago but I'm still less than 1/4th through it. It seems to still be working so I think its still good.

Scott

Thanks for the additional information. I may look into the cotton baggies. I used plastic bags on the apples. My peaches/nectarine are still blooming, so i should have a little time to figure out what to do.

Scott,

I noticed last year a definite preference of OFM for nectarine over plum. I had a Stanley plum with a full crop of fruit right next to the nectarine, and the OFM hit the nectarine hard while virtually ignoring the plum. So my strategy this year is to spray the nectarine a few times this summer with permethrin, in the hope of wiping out the OFM population that are attracted to the nectarine. If I actually get a few edible nectarines out of this, it will be a bonus, since I had pretty much resigned myself to forever being nectarineless. I agree about the value of tip pruning; do you only prune off tips that have been visibly struck (wilting tips) or do you cut all tips off as soon as you notice any OFM attacks?

If you are spraying the nectarine enough that idea may work well.

For the tips I do a 2x per week or thereabouts patrol on the flagging tips and cut them off, plus a couple summer prunes, hopefully timed after big flights, where I nail every tip and summer prune at the same time. I have some battery powered hedge trimmers which allows me to nail all the tips in no time.

Scott

I just read on Wiki that Spinosad is highly toxic to bees and parasitic wasps. I'm new to spraying anything (except termite stuff around the foundation of the house). I bought some Spinosad upon recommendation of the guy at Pike's and sprayed all my drupes twice since petal drop (hope it works). But do you guys take any precautions not to hurt the beneficials (like time of day or anything) when spraying actual poison?

Also where do you buy Surround without having to pay for shipping? I've never seen it at HD, Lowes or Pikes

Thanks, Ron

Ron, spinosad is not very useful when the flowers are out on the trees so I am not spraying it then. I also noticed no decline in bees since I started using it. I am not watching when I am spraying it.

Seven Springs Farm is a good source of Surround in your area, he is in the Carolinas I think. Shipping is a big part of the cost so you want to get it close by. Several farm supply chains also sell it. The closest store to me is a couple hours away so I just mail-order it.

Scott

Scott, how much oil do you typically add per gallon of Surround solution? Are you adding the Safe-t-side I've seen you post about? I'm about to place a 7springs order and was considering purchasing some along with my Surround order.

I think the insect that is most damaging to cherries in the Mid-Atlantic, even tarts like Northstar, is not plum curculio but the cherry fruit fly. These insects are easily confused since the result is the same: A small white larvae close to the pit.

Cherry fruit fly leaves a small round hole in the fruit, not the scar normally associated with PC. I have never seen PC on cherries in over 30 years growing them, but have seen plenty of fruit fly damage.

There is no need to spray anything for cherry fruit fly, since cultural controls work well. Infested fruit falling from the tree allows the larvae to enter the soil and pupate, supplying the next generation. First, remove all cherries from the trees at the end of the season and discard. In mid-winter, cultivate with a hoe out to the dripline to a depth of 3-4 inches. If you have had bad infestations, do it twice. This exposes the pupae to cold and drying and kills them. Since I started following these practices, is is extremely rare to see a larvae show up in the pitter, and we usually freeze about 25 quarts of tart cherries.

I don't know if the cherry fruit fly is so common in Wisconsin, but would assume it is present there too. I don't see how use of Surround would be practical on cherries because of the residue issue.

Don Yellman, Great Falls, VA

Last year my Northstar was completely wiped out by curculio. Like Austransplant I guess they had no other choice since the apples were all sprayed, normally the cherries are left alone.

I can't say Cherry Fruit Fly has been a problem. If they're here they haven't ever wiped me out. But it's more likely to be abandoned apples in the neighborhood breeding pests.

I am only using Stylet oil thus far. I expect any drying oil will be OK with Surround but I have not yet used it with Saf-T-Side myself. The standard rec is to not use oil with Surround, but I went and looked at the studies and they were all with non-trying oils which leave a film on the Surround. The point is when using any (drying) oil with Surround I would say it should be OK, but pay attention to make sure it is not reducing effectiveness. Note that all mineral oils, including Saf-T-Side, are drying oils.

Don, I have some bug that is nearly all in my sweets and I am pretty sure it is OFM because there are also worms boring into the tips just like the OFM on cherries. I haven't seen the cherry fruit fly here. Also I never say any PC damage on my cherries.

Scott

Scott- Thank you for sharing your spray techniques. I tried finding an older post where you explain why you mix Surround and Serenade, would you please tell me why mix?

Thanks!
Kendra

I have tried using surround several times. I love the results, but it is a royal pain to apply. I have followed the directions for mixing, and it clogs my sprayer every time. I have mixed it with warm water, in a 5 gallon bucket, strained the mix using cheese cloth, and still it clogs my sprayer. I have used a backpack sprayer, as well as a 3 gallon carry-type. What suggestions do you have?

I haven't tried the backpack sprayer yet with it... I just used a hand held one because i really haven't spray many trees. I guess i haven't noticed much of a clogging problem, just that it sticks to the bottom of the sprayer when it settles.

It has worked very well on one of my plums, a peach and an apricot, it didn't work too well on sweet cherries and a nectarine. Even with a good coating PC will still lay an egg on the fruit. We've had a lot of rain lately, so i'm going to put another coating on any time now.

twodogs, I have never had clogging problems. I really don't know whats going on. I just throw in the surround, add the water while agitating, and spray. If you want to keep using Surround I would try a different sprayer. There should be no reason at all to strain it, it is all microparticles so there is nothing to strain out.

Kendra, I didn't notice your post above. Serenade fights diseases so that is why I add it. Surround doesn't help with diseases at all.

Scott

Scott-

Maybe we aren't talking about the same stuff. I bought a product called "surround" from Garden's Alive. It is a white powder that is sprayed on fruit trees. Each time that I have used it it has caused a lot of clogging. I have mixed it & had trouble, as has my wife. We also noticed a lot of black particles at the bottom of the sprayer, along with white sediment.

In any case - thanks for your response.

twodogs, it sounds like there are some impurities in what you have. Garden's Alive is a poorly run company (look at their feedback on Daves Garden) so I'm not too surprised to hear that; I think they are packaging up the smaller bags themselves since Englehard makes 25lb bags only. If you have a fairly big area I would consider getting a 25lb bag of the real stuff, that is what I use and it never, ever clogs my sprayer.

Scott

CPS? Would you please tell me what store this is. Thanks!

Scott-

That is scary if that is what they are doing. I could just imagine the mess they must be making!

Buy it somewhere local if you can and buy a 25lb bag. Its around $30. I found mine at an Ag place.

Scott-

Thanks for the information. I will look locally for it. I got ripped off if you can buy a 25 lb bag for $30! On top of it, the frustration level is amazing! I can't get one tree sprayed without breaking down my sprayer. I have about 50 trees!

My closest local place is an hour or two away so I mail-order it from Seven Springs -- they have the best price I found since they are in Virginia and the shipping is not as bad. Johhny's Seeds also may have cheap shipping depending on where you live. Since the stuff weighs so much you want to look at the shipping price as much as the sale price if mail-ordering. I order several bags from Seven Springs and get it for about $45 including shipping per bag.

Scott