NJ,

Did you have the chance to taste any of Jerry's 100's crosses. If so, how is it compare to your favorites above?

Creek,

Maru, sold as "Cinnamon persimmon" for its spicy flavor. not Osage. I read so much and got mixed up.

After all the reading and growing persimmons. Taste is so subjective. You have to grow a bunch of persimmons and try it for yourself, and keep the ones that you like best and top work the one that you don't like.

Tony

I've had Hokkaido growing here(southern west-central KY, 20 miles north of the KY/TN border) for a number of years. Cold-hardiness, so far, is comparable to Saijo. Has a single fruit this year - first time for it to produce any.

Lucky_p,
good luck with your single fruit,hope that it will persist to ripening time and you will inform us about fruit taste,weight or you'll paste some photos...How many years is your tree in free soil?So Hokkaido is pretty hardy,similair to Sheng,Saijo or Great wall...Do you also grow Shin or K-5 from Kentucky nursery ?

Hey Tony, I've been reading this thread and found it very interesting that you are growing more tropical persimmons in Nebraska not very far from where I live. I figured this wouldn't be possible to do where I'm at. I have prok, yates i94-a, u-20a, celebrity, 100-46, and ws8-10 American persimmons also Rosseyanka and Nikitas Gift growing here in Iowa. I have overwintered Rosseyanka here with no protection but this would be the first year overwintering Nikitas Gift. This year I bought a Giant Hana Fuyu to grow in a pot to bring indoors in the winter. The tree is really doing great. I have right now a 10 gallon pot planted in the ground with the tree planted in the pot until it is large enough to move to a 30 gallon pot. I'm pretty sure this tree isn't grafted on D. Virginiana. Can you graft Giant Hana Fuyu onto D. Virginiana rootstock? I would certainly like to experiment with the cold hardiness of hana Fuyu on D. Virginiana.

Treebird,

Giant Hana Fuyu is compatable with D. Virginiana but not D. Lotus. My is on D. Virginiana. By the way the U-20A is the same as Celebrity the comercial name. My Nikita's Gift is loaded this year. I protect my Kakis over winter with dry leafs and wrapped them up. A little extra work but big reward.

Tony

Tony, it is true that most PCNA kakis are not compatible with lotus but Hana Fuyu (or Giant Fuyu) is the only exception. It grows and fruits quite well on D.lotus. For the outside plantation virginiana rootstock is preferable of course.

Harbin, I have Wase Fuyu topworked on lotus - no fruit yet but seems to be growing okay the past 2 years.

Yeah Tony i realized I put both names for the U-20a after i posted it. Its good to know Hana Fuyu is compatible with d. virginiana rootstock. I will be doing more grafting next year for sure. How well does your Nikitas gift hold up in Omaha over the winter? Do you protect it? This one I know I have grafted on D. Virginiana. I live in south western Iowa about 2 hours from Omaha, Nebraska. We have a pawpaw orchard in its infancy with all the best varieties of pawpaws available even a newly discovered variety me and my wife had found during our fruit hunt last year called HALVIN. Behind the pawpaw orchard we are starting to grow persimmons, only approximately 16 trees so far but I sought and sought for the most superior persimmon varieties and now you have me wanting to experiment with Kaki persimmons.

harbin - I grow Jiro on D. lotus rootstock and it grows well during last 3 years, no signs of incompactibility. there are more PCNA varieties than only Hana Fuyu that prosper good on lotus rootstock.

i have limited room for other plants, so now I am looking for naturally dwarf growing japanese persimmons to save some place. Ichi-ki-kei should be good choice for small gardens, maybe also Izu or Tam Kam?

Just putting my zone in here, zone 5A.

Treebird,

I do protect the Nikita's Gift and Kakis by mulching the base of the tree to about 1 1/2 feet up. I trimmed the top to 8 feet tall across and tied the spreading branches together with a rope to make the tree a little smaller and wrapped it up with a tarp from Home depot with dry leafs stuffed inside. This process took place in late November. I removed the tarp from the tree in the first week of February to avoid early budding. This tree survived
the -26F in 2007 with this protection. Most year the temp only drop to -10F max.

Tony

So I take it Hana Fuyu would survive just as easily with the same protection? I may try this out once I get it grafted to Virginiana next year. Tony, have you heard of anyone developing a non astringent cross with virginianna?

Treebird,

jerry Lehman told me that when he visited Russia last year and have learned that the Russian have many hybrids and they will release some in the near future. I am not sure any of those are non-astringent crosses. We just have to wait and see.

Tony

That would be interesting to see. I heard it wasn't exactly easy to get their crosses to create Rosseyanka or Nikitas gift. If it were that easy, I'm sure alot more would be done. I know Jerry had told me he was working on crossing more Kakis with virginianna also. I thought Cliff had told me once that a non astringent has never been crossed with Virginiana. I just wonder if it could be done. It would be great to pluck an orange Virginiana type persimmon right off the tree while still crisp and take a bite of a sweet fruit that's as crunchy as an apple. I love Fuyu type persimmons.

Crossing kaki with virginiana is near impossible. But you can easily backcross a hybrid with either kaki or virginiana. This way you can increase the size (kaki) or hardiness (virginiana). Resulting hybrids can also be crossed with each other. This is what's been done in Ukraine. Last year I have crossed Hana Fuyu with a hybrid male but I do not expect that the resulting seedlings will bear non astringent fruit. Non astringency is a recessive trait.

Wow harbin, that is very interesting. I wonder if any one has a 50% or less kaki male crossed with virginiana that I would be able to graft onto virginiana to use for cross polination for my hana fuyu. I would like to experiment with this also. We have to keep the torch going here.

So harbin, is recessiveness in persimmons similar to that of eye color or other recessive genes? If you cross a hybrid with a non astringent then bred sibling offspring, would you have a 1 in 4 chance of getting a non astringent variety since they would both have the non astringent recessive gene? Also what variety of Kaki persimmon has the absolute largest fruit?

treebird, I have a hybrid male seedling that I got from Clifford, and he has several in Kentucky. I can send you wood from mine, or Cliff can send you wood, I believe he wants to topwork his. The kaki in them is Honan Red.

Benny

Treebird, nothing is absolute but Hana Fuyu has one of the largest fruits. But fruit size depends on many factors.

Here is a link that might be useful: Persimmon breeding in Japan

thanks benny. I will have to call cliff and ask him to add some wood to my order and harbin, i couldnt get that link to come up.

Hi all,

If you interested in cross breeding on your own and here is the method Jerry Lehman passes on me to share.

BREEDING THE AMERICAN PERSIMMON
Jerry Lehman, 7780 Persimmon St. Terre Haute, IN 47802-4994

The most prolific breeder of the American Persimmon is James Claypool. His test orchard at St. Elmo, IL contained over 2,400 hand pollinated trees many of which have been destroyed because of poor characteristics. Due to health problems Jim's breeding activities are now mainly concerned with caring for and evaluating the remaining trees. The Indiana Nut Growers has become active in continuing Jim's work by testing and distributing for further testing.

A few including myself are actively back breeding his F-1 crosses to the F-2 level. Because all of the males that Jim used were members of the Early Golden Family he never breed to the F-2 level to avoid inbreeding depression. Certainly at some point outside material will need be brought into the program to minimize this danger.

All of this work is being done in the Midwest (Illinois & Indiana). As all fruit, persimmon (D. virginiana) performance varies under different climatic conditions. Example, Claypool's D-128 now being propagated as Dollywood is an excellent cultivar for the Midwest. But one tester from the state of Alabama reports that Dollywood fruit ripens too soft and splatters when dropping from the tree.

Testers and breeders are needed in areas with different climatic conditions. In order to help would be breeders here is the procedure for pollinating which was developed by Mr. Claypool with the help of the late Prof. J. C. McDaniel of the Univ. of Illinois.

For complete control of pollen received by the pistillate flowers, they must be bagged and tied. Because the flowering period of any single branch can be as long as week, white paper bags are best. Plastic bags do not allow for the passage of air creating too much heat. Plastic bags also trap in moisture. Bags must be installed over the small branches before flowering begins. Destruction of paper bags has been minimal even in driving rain storms. To keep unwanted insects, especially ants, from carrying in stray pollen, place a small wad of cotton in the neck of the bag where is it tied.

Once the pistillate (female) flowers begin blooming pollen is collected. Newly opened staminate (male) flowers should be collected very early in the morning before bee activity begins to prevent the bees from delivering stray pollen to the corollas of the flowers. This is typically done 5:30 to 6:00 AM. After collecting staminate flowers take them indoors to dry and mature for several hours, 3 or more. The later in the day the flowers are collected, the less pollen remains in the tubular anthers. Two day old flowers carry very little pollen and are a waste of time to collect plus the corolla has a greater chance of harboring unwanted stray pollen.

Pollen can be extracted into and stored in small vials similar to prescription vials or micro centrifuge tubes. Either works well but the tube is best if only one or two flowers is available to extract pollen. Persimmon anthers are shaped as tubes which open at the end to release the pollen. Grasping the partially dried flower at it's base with a small tweezers. Turn it upside down over the vile and sharply wrap the tweezers on the vial's edge. The pollen falls out of the anthers and into the collection vial. With good lighting this can usually be seen with the naked eye. If collecting pollen from more than one male, care should be taken not to contaminate each by washing all tools and hands between extractions from all selected males. Thirty to fifty flowers normally produce enough pollen to easily pollinate many flowers.

My experience is that the Pollen remains viable for 48 hours and 60 hours with reduced viability. When not being used, store under refrigeration. Warm the container with your hands before opening a cold vial to avoid moisture condensation on the container walls causing the pollen to cling to the bottle.

Pollen can also be frozen for longer storage. In one test I froze (at zero F.) a sample for one hour then thawed and refroze twice more. The pollen was still viable and successful pollinations were obtained. In their book "Methods in Fruit Breeding" by James Moore and Jules Janick, they report that pollen from many fruits can be stored for up to one year at zero degrees F.

The bagged pistillate flowers should be checked each day and pollen applied to receptive stigma. Pollinating can be done anytime provided the stigmas are receptive. Newly opened flowers are normally receptive for a 48 hour period unless pollination has taken place. The stigma on successfully pollinated flowers turn brown within 24 hours while the style remains green.

Tooth picks work well for pollen applicators. Simply grasp the vial with one hand while holding the branchlet with the same hand. With the other hand remove the container top, insert the applicator tip into the pollen then gently touch the stigma. Pollen grains can easily be seen with a 30 power hand held field microscope. The 30 power field microscope fits in the pocket and can be used to confirm that pollen has been applied. With experience, it is seldom necessary to confirm application.
Forty eight hours after the last flower has been pollinated the bag should be removed. It is best to apply pollen from the same male to all flowers in one bag. Attach a label to each branch with the name of the male that was used. This should be done when the bag is first installed that it will be known which male is selected for that branche's flowers. I like to use vinyl electrical tape and permanent ink pens with felt tips for the label. This label is left on the limb all summer.

Then in the fall when the fruit begins to turn color, bags such as grapefruit bags need be installed over the limbs to collect the falling fruit. Extract the seeds, place in a plastic freezer bag with dampened milled sphagnum and store under refrigeration until planting next spring.

Early Golden was found near Alton, IL over 100 years ago. It has been said that it is neither early nor golden. At that time it was likely one of the earliest ripening cultivars and remains today one of the best tasting. There is question that all of the material named Early Golden today is a descendant of the original ortet. Claypool's tree came from a man by the name of Soloman who cut his scion from the original tree. Two daughters of EG are Garretson and Killen. From Garretson two males were selected for breeding that are known as G1M & G2M. Two males were selected from Killen, and named Mike & George. These males were selected primarily because of their high production of flowers making pollen collection easier. The true breeding value of any male from a dioecious species can only be determined by studying the progeny. Of these four, G2M has produced the highest percentage of trees producing the best fruit. In my test orchard are over 800 seedlings from controlled breeding involving Claypool's material.

The complete records of Claypool's orchard are available on the web at: WWW.claypoolpersimmonfarm.com

I hope this will help. Goodluck.

Tony

Thanks for the info Tony! My interest now with persimmons is hybridizing Kaki and Virginiana. Cliff is going to send me some wood next year of a fruiting male that is a cross of Great Wall and Virginiana. But my goal is to go backwards with that male to superior Virginianas that I favor and then go forward with the male results onto non astringent Kakis. Its just a plan and I found your info very interesting. Thanks

Tony, I am glad you pass the infos on. I have been searching for the correct way to cross persimmons in a while. Next time you talk with Jerry say thanks for me.

Treebird,

Jerry Had some fruited seedlings as a resulted of crossing Rossyanka male to several D. Viginianas but so far they did not taste good. He is going to send me some these male next spring so I can cross myself.

Tony

Treebird, I am sorry, try this one

Here is a link that might be useful: Persimmon breeding in Japan

That's cool tony, I heard that Rosseyanka was only ok in flavor and takes a very long time to lose astringency. I have a tree of rosseyanka but it hasn't fruited yet. It seems like Rosseyanka was the opening act for hybridization in persimmons but apparently opened a new world of possibilities.

Hey tony, I had a question for ya, on the Itchi and Hana Fuyu, I noticed you had them planted up against your house. You had mentioned that they were grafted on Virginiana rootstock. Are you not at all concerned about the rootstock growing into the foundation of your house or do you think it will not be a problem? Thanks

Treebird,
So far so good. D. Virginiana has a very deep tap root and not many large side roots.

Tony

I had birds eating my American persimmons last year so I am going to put fruit sox on them so they can't be seen. It has helped with Japanese plums.

Izu is a naturally dwarfing tree. I don't grow it anymore because, like many nonastringent varieties, it doesn't have the rich, strong, rum/butterscotch flavor of the American varieties.

These are excellent discussions. Not very many people grow American persimmons out here in Oregon. We grow a lot more Asian ones. The main limitation is whether they ripen or not. Seedlings often wont' ripen. All early selected varieties will ripen every year.

The spontaneous dropping of branches on American persimmons is particularly an issue if you live in the suburbs, like me. It sounds like many of you have acres. You can grow as many one variety trees as you would like. I can't. I am trying an experiment this year. I tried to bud Saijo onto my virginiana rootstock. Then I am going to grow American varieties on the branches so that they don't fall off.

I realize in many parts of the country you don't grow both. In coastal California and Southern Florida, you can't grow Virginiana because they need more chill.

Keep up the good work. I love everyone's observations.
John S
PDX OR

As I know, new ukraine (not russian!) selections are selected seedlings coming from variety Nikita Gift. Most of these new varieties are astringent and late ripening, but there are also some non-astringent types. Hardiness of these varieties is under evaluation and still need to be tested in different climates, but should be in range between -20 to -25 Celsium degrees. They are difficult available outside Ukraine, maybe in next year or two will be.

I grow two D. kaki on lotus rootstock near the house, because of better microclimate. And I hope that rootstock will not be growing into the foundation of the house. Could it be a problem?

How near the house? Also if it's IZU, I wouldn't worry about it too much. If it's a larger variety, I would worry more.
John S
PDX OR

Korean kaki is 1 meter from house path, second variety is Costata and it is 2 meters far from house. Korean is slow grower, but Costata has huge growth in second year. Can D. lotus roots be so strong to make cracks in house foundation?

I'm going to avoid planting any persimmons close to the house like I said. It would be great for winter protection on your less hardy Kakis I'm sure but I've seen mature D. Virginiana trees that sucker profusely quite a distance all around the tree, I'm sure this would happen up along your foundation. I think it would be best to plant in an open area where you could mow easily around the trunk of the tree. I'm not sure about any other rootstock because it is doubtful it would survive here in Iowa. I just know the habit of D. Virginiana. I'm sure tony can keep us updated in the future, hopefully this wont be problem.

I grow all persimmons on D.lotus rootstock and never observed suckers production by this species.Also,the roots were cut before planting in soil,so rootstock will probably produce dense amount of adventive roots near surface,not one deep and big root down.I heard that wallnut roots can damage house foundation,but no experience with D.lotus.We also grow winegrapes near house for 20 or more years.

I agree,that is better to plant slow growing varieties near the house,like Ichi,Izu,Giboshi.Costata is 7ft high in second year in soil.I grow it because should be pretty cold hardy.

Back to the original question, I would answer that Yates can be ripened off the tree with satisfactory results. The fruit when picked once it has shown some slight color change and still fully astringent will continue the ripening process off the tree under low light conditions and room temperature and will fully ripen before those left on the tree. They become moderately sweet with good flavor and full loss of astringency but the color is somewhat less bright and less orange and the consistency is drier and more mealy than tree ripened fruit. Similar results with NC-10.

Creek,

That was a positive result. Now we can harvest American persimmons a little bit earlier and still taste good.

Tony

I just saw your post today, Creekweb. Thank you for experimenting with Yates and NC-10 and reporting your results! That is good news.

My quest to defeat the squirrels might have some hope after all. :)

Mary Kay

It's been a while since returning-back to this thread:

-Jerry Lehman and Cliff England tell me that 'Valeene Beauty' is I-94... Not I-94A; though the Claypool records show a higher score for I-94A. Are you certain VB is I-94A?

-Does 'John Rick' successfully ripen in 6b/7a?

-Is F-25 one of the very best varieties?

-What varieties are females that produce some male or perfect-flowers, other than: Early Golden; Szukis, Killen, Meader, Garrettson?

-Is Mohler a (partially) seedless 90-c variety, even when pollinated by a 90-c male?

-I tried Celebrety (U-20A)... Low-flavor, bland. Maybe the tree was in a bad spot.

Thanks,
Steve

It's been a while since returning-back to this thread:

-Jerry Lehman and Cliff England tell me that 'Valeene Beauty' is I-94... Not I-94A; though the Claypool records show a higher score for I-94A. Are you certain VB is I-94A?

-Does 'John Rick' successfully ripen in 6b/7a?

-Is F-25 one of the very best varieties?

-What varieties are females that produce some male or perfect-flowers, other than: Early Golden; Szukis, Killen, Meader, Garrettson?

-Is Mohler a (partially) seedless 90-c variety, even when pollinated by a 90-c male?

-I tried Celebrety (U-20A)... Low-flavor, bland. Maybe the tree was in a bad spot.

Thanks,
Steve

John rick ripens at the same time early golden in my zone 7, both are very early ripening. The only difference between the 2 that I have found is john rick has slightly more reddish orange pulp and a red blush on the skin. Both persimmons are very good and should have no trouble ripening anywhere in zone 6.

Hi Guys!
I'm Kristian from Hungary. Zone 6b. Next year I want to expand my collection with american persimmons. Does anybody can help me in the cuttings? Because here in Europe we dont have american persimmons.

There are restrictions and international rules for exporting plants and fruit trees abroad. That is the reason why Am. persimmons are not available in Europe.

Do you really think so?

I heard it. But in limited quantity the sending is allowed. I know because i recived some fig cuttings last year.

Tony
I would have a personal question for you, can i get your mail adress?

Kristianhun,

You can send me an email thru my page.

Tony

Hello!
Tony I sent a mail.

Hi guys, theme is old and I do not know if it's still active. I would like to get in touch with Kristian from Hungary and I was wondering if somebody's got his e-mail? I want to have hardy kaki (persimmon) in my backyard but can not find it in my country. Would seek in neighboring and Hungary is one of them, by the way I am from Serbia. I have tried to contact people from Bulgaria but with no success. So if someoene has some contact or knowledge about hardy persimmon on Balkan please send me. Greetings, Martin.

Martin(6)

This garden center in Serbia caries hardy persimmons "Rasadnik Sevar" , and / or "misoo83" on Youtube from Pancevo has many sorts of persimmons.