Correct. bare root is a much better option. you can't unwind those roots and lay them into the ground properly so the upper portion is out of balance with the roots and doesn't grow much for a couple years. One the other hand bare root takes off quite well and develops a nice even root system. I have a potted tree that is really stunted from having too tight of a root ball and it has snot been able to correct that very well in the ground.

On the other hand, it can be the reverse if the tree were a medium sized and in an appropriate pot, like a treeband pot, where roots continue to grow downward, but end up getting air pruned. The lack of root disturbance can really make a difference as oppossed to a tree that may have lost substantial feeder roots when dug for barerooting.

It just depends....

Redsun, my little orchard is like a living testament to the ills of planting root bound fruit trees. Once they become root bound in a pot, they never really seem to recover when planted out. Mine have remained small and stunted while those much smaller bare root trees I planted have flourished. I personally think smaller bare root trees establish much better and result in a nicer growing tree.
Bare root is the way to go.

I do think as dbarron said, a potted tree that was not root bound could establish better for the reasons he mentioned. Problem with that is that not many of those type trees are available. What I typically have found with big box store potted trees is that they are essentially 6' tall bare root trees planted in sawdust or some other cheap medium or trees that were held in the 3 gal pot for a year. If it's the former you wind up planting a bare root tree that has has usually already broke dormancy, if the latter it is root bound and struggles to establish.
I did plant a potted Honeycrisp that established very nicely, but it was from a good grower and was much more costly than the typical big box store tree. Even that tree however was getting close to being rootbound. My soil is extremely good, probably in the top 5% of that which is normally found and I suspect that if I planted that tree on harder soil, it too would have struggled.
I think (as do most) that bare root is the way to go all the way around. I still would plant a potted tree if it were done properly like dbarron said and it was all that was available.

Redsun...one final thought. I've planted seedling apples that had less than 1 seasons worth of growth in 2 gal. pots and when removed they already had winding feeder roots. It is nearly impossible to plant in a pot and avoid root binding to some degree.
Have you ever planted potted tomato seedlings? When you pull the plants at seasons end the rootball still has the little pot shape with only a few roots escaping the twisted root mass trying to reach out for water/nutrients.
I suspect the same holds true of fruit trees.

If the soil is hard, would bare-root fruit trees still get root-bound?

On the other hand, in late fall, can you buy potted trees, open up the root ball and plant the tree just like a bare-root? I figure you get more roots this way and the tree goes to dormancy very soon.

Redsun, I've heeled in potted trees and had all 4 of them push roots right through the plastic pot (heavy guage) and into the soil, I don't know what stops them from doing this when not heeled in, but ALL of them did it and all were different varieties. So, no, the soil shouldn't bind the roots unless your soil is concrete in which case root binding will be the least of your worries. You should however loosen the hole edges to prevent exactly what your asking though.

You could buy a potted tree and plant it in the fall whether dormant or active. The roots generate extremely fast Redsun and although I get what your saying there would not be any appreciable benefit to this. It's just like cckw said...the roots establish better when allowed to follow their own path and balance is key. By balance I mean top growth to bottom. You must have the delivery system to supply the top and a surplus is better than a deficit.

What we haven't mentioned thus far is that there are other benefits (big ones) to bare root trees. Selection of varieties is virtually unlimited and you can often choose the rootstock of your preference based on soil conditions, resistances, and final height and overall size of the tree, vigor etc.
Look at it this way...commercial growers plant bare root. The reasons for that are the same as the reasons that you should...plus the fact that they often machine plant, but that's beside the point.

I think that appleseed id'd the real problem with transplanting almost anything. The balance between leaf and root. I'd also throw in girdling roots.

Check out the Bonsai section and see how they deal with keeping plants in pots. If you replant anything in it's optimal time frame you will have better success as well.

When you say container tree are you talking about pot grown or field grown or B&B and replanted into large containers? Always a bad deal for a homeowner, poor leaf to root ration.

I've started growing my own trees from seed. You guys are right about the issues growing trees in normal smooth-sided containers. Root circling and J-hooking can be issues in the later life of the tree.

On the otherhand, I have found that you can a container system to significantly improve the root system. The one I use is rootmaker, but there are other similar containers on the market.

Basically, these containers prune the roots using air pruning, capture pruning, or constriction. When the end of the tap root is pruned, it forces the root to form secondary branches and when they are pruned, tertiary and so on.

In the end, you end up with a very dense root system that has lots of root tips to extract water and nutrients.

I believe rootmaker has a certification system. If you plan to buy containerized trees, I'd look for a supplier that has this certification or something similar.

There is lots of information on the rootmaker web site. I've been using these for several years now with very good results.

Forest, there is another thread here right now where folks are talking about growing from seed and sharing photos. Maybe you could post and share a few pics, a lot of us would like to see them.

Appleseed,

Most of my focus is wildlife management so I post most of my pictures and information on a habitat forum. If you check out the link below and do a forum search for "rootmaker" or "air pruning" you will find lots of pictures from me and from others more experienced than I am. Most of the focus there has been starting Dunstan Chestnuts from seed but there are a lot of folks working with oaks and persimmons. I learned about the air pruning containers from folks on that forum and then started doing my homework. Personally, I've used them for starting Dunstan Chestnuts, Persimmons, Jujube, and Elderberry.

Here is a link that might be useful: QDMA Habitat Forum with pics

Have you considered doing something like Liberty or Redfree apple on Antonovka seedling for wildlife food? I've thought that might be a decent combo for food plots. It might take 5-10 years or so, but once established it should crank out loads of somewhat decent fruit for years and years.

"It just depends...."

I think that's it.

I'm unconvinced about bare root trees at this point - I bought about a dozen this winter/spring... and while they've survived, they've done very little growing (except my 3 persimmons, all of which lost their grafts).

The potted trees on the other hand, are doing great.

My soil is basically an inch or so of clayey topsoil on top of solid clay though, so maybe its just tougher for the bareroots to adapt.

I have clay/shale soil that is soupy when over saturated in spring and concrete when dried out in summer. I found that I have to do the opposite of general recommendations by amending a cubic yard of soil around the tree. They say not to do this because the roots will tend to circle in the good soil area, rather spread out into the tougher soil. However, a bare root tree planted directly into my native soil will be dead by the end of the summer. Native weeds even have tough time getting reestablished in an area that has been dug up. Planting a potted tree directly into the native soil will start slow but take off a year or two later. The tree roots need a nursing area to keep the tree alive while they acclimate to the harsher native soil. I've dug near my trees 5 years later and found roots farther away than I expected, so they spread despite breaking the rule not to amend the soil. After the first year, I only water my trees when there is clear danger of drought stress. I want them to find their own water by growing deeper roots.

This post was edited by nyRockFarmer on Fri, Sep 5, 14 at 12:24

Yes, I have considered apples for wildlife and Liberty would be a variety near the top of the list. However, apples are near the bottom of my list of trees. In a wildlife setting, one of the largest factors is maintenance. Apples can be a great deer attractant, but unless you plant any tree in high volumes, you are not really feeding wildlife.

We have an existing food plot program but are now looking at adding more low maintenance longer term food sources like hard and soft mast.

The best bang for the buck I've found is to convert our native male persimmon trees to female varieties that drop from September through January with bark grafting. Because the rootstock is already well established you can see fruit in as little as the third leaf after grafting.

I'm also experimenting converting some of our hickory trees to disease resistant paper shell pecan trees. Hickory nuts are so hard that only squirrels can really use them. Time will tell with this.

I've planted hundreds of Dunstan chestnut trees but I'm not sure how fast they will grow in our heavy clay soils. Again time will tell.

We have also planted a few Keiffer pear trees because they are self-fertile and low maintenance.

I'm also experimenting with Jujube for deer because of the low maintenance nature of the tree. Again, time will tell if this works out.

Eventually I'll try a few apples for attraction, but probably not in sufficient volume for feeding.

This is what I'm thinking:

We are close to fall and dormant season is coming. I can buy some container grown fruit trees at the end of the season. When they just go dormant, I can dig out the tree, wash off the soil, just as what the tree farms do. Then I can re-plant the tree just like any bare-root tree.

This way, I get a much larger tree with the roots not trimmed. Since I re-arrange the roots, the tree is not root bound. The stress is much lower than that of the mail order bare root trees.

you can't really rearrange the roots like your saying without cutting them. Understand this: they (the roots) are all in a twisted mass...they do not simply unfurl or unwind like a spool of string. Besides that "a much larger" tree is exactly what you don't want. Redsun..get the idea out of your head that bare root trees are under any kind of stress. As long as the roots are kept moist the trees are fine. The larger potted trees are exactly what everyone has been telling you is one of the issues. Too much top for too little roots.

You seem to think you've discovered an angle to better planting that nobody heretofore has thought of. If it worked better as you suggest, you'd see videos of orchards on YT planting this way. But...you don't. You seem them planting bare root.
The reasons for this are all those in this thread that everyone has been telling you.
BTW...tree farms do not remove their trees from pots before selling bare root...they remove them from the field. Therein lies the difference.

I have had up to 42 inches of NEW growth on bare root trees
(pluot, nectarine, mirabelles) planted this past May in Purling, New York. Zone 5b about 30 miles almost directly south of Albany NY.

I guess they overcame whatever stress they were put to.

I have also transplanted TOTALLY root-bound trees out of 3 gallon pots. The roots were a solid mat that I could not unwind without cutting. For these I waited until they went almost completely dormant and had lost all leaves. I de-potted the tree washed off all the remaining soil and aggressively but carefully with my pruners, cut where I had to, untangled, and spread roots and replanted. In spring the recovery and growth were phenomenal.

Doing this while the tree is dormant and replanting in the fall gives ( IMHO) a bigger margin of error in balancing the root/branch balance ratio.

I turned the root ball upside down and looked at it as if I was pruning a tree that had been ignored.

Roots are like underground "branches" and pruning them spurs new root growth just as pruning the above ground branches.

This is what worked for me.

Mike

Here is my one and only experience with root bound fruit tree. I planted 3 container peach trees 4 years ago in the spring. One of them is root bound really bad, of course I only discovered that after I got home. The experts on this forum warned me then root bound tree would not do well, and it didn't , even through I tried to prune the root. While the other two peach trees started to bear good crop of peaches within a year or two, this root bound tree didn't really much bear fruit until last year. This year I think it finally caught up with other two trees and bore fruit normally. So I think it takes 4 years for my root bound tree to recover:-)

And even then...sometimes they never break the encircling habit and I've had a tree girdled by it's own roots (evident when I took it out).

You CAN break the encircling behavior of the roots by cutting through the roots along the the circumference where they make a turn sideways, splaying them out at planting time, bending, forcing and, twisting them into the correct aspect.

Done in the right season they will take alot of manhandling and spring back. if a tree is worth fighting for, the root's encircling habit can be broken. don't just jostle the root-ball and plop it into the ground.

Mike

I think this also depends on the tree and how the tree is planted. If the soil is really hard, a bare-rooted tree would still have hard time growing roots beyond the original dug hole. The roots may still circulate.

When the tree is dormant, we should be able to shake off the potting mix of the container tree, wash the roots and re-arrange the roots. I've done that. And I do not see this any difference from field dug bare-root trees.

Of course the tree should be cut at the top to balance the roots and top growth.

When the tree is dormant, we should be able to shake off the potting mix of the container tree, wash the roots and re-arrange the roots. I've done that. And I do not see this any difference from field dug bare-root trees

Redsun...of course you can do it. Nobody has said you can't. In this scenario you can and should cut the roots as Mike said and make proportional reductions to top growth.

You said earlier:
This way, I get a much larger tree with the roots not trimmed. Since I re-arrange the roots, the tree is not root bound. The stress is much lower than that of the mail order bare root trees.

Now...we've established that you've now cut the roots AND cut the top, so how then do you wind up further ahead than if you were to plant bare root to begin with? How? How is this less stressful than bare root? How do you wind up with roots "not trimmed" as you say?
You will not be further ahead, you will be further behind. The roots will be turning in a radius to match the pot...that means large roots sometimes (or often depending on how bound they are) have to be cut rather short to head them away from the trunk like the spokes in a wheel. You will damage a ton of fine feeders no matter how delicate you are.
Cutting the roots etc as Mike described is something you have to do to address an issue, not something you aim for because it works better.
Having to do it is one thing, but why on Earth would anybody go out of their way to plant a tree in this fashion?

Ok folks, we've wasted enough time here...shall we declare this thread closed and let the OP do whatever he wants?

I suppose you're right. Some advice will just never be taken....lol

nooooooo !!! .. lol ...

i have to admit.. i didnt read all the replies ...

see link that i often use in the tree/conifer and shrub forums ...

dealing with this is not limited to fruit trees ... so the rules are the same ...

but the one thing i didnt see in the replies i read ... is anyone addressing actually what the understock is ...

these fruit peeps choose their trees.. based onto only on the fruiting part itself.. but choose based on what is below.. they will have to tell you why.. and for what reasons ...

and you can not.. predict what the understock is.. when buying a big pot.. at the bigboxstore ..

for that reason ... and the fact that they are mailed to your front door at the appropriate planting time ... many of us prefer mail order ...

read the planting guide.. and you will probably find out.. you dont need to dig a big planting hole.. unless you buy a really big tree.. and most tree peeps.. dont believe in instant gratification ... as big plants.. have big transplanting stresses.. and can take years to get settled in and get established... as compared to smaller plants ... which can take off like rockets.. all things properly done ...

go small.. get understock appropriate to your area.. and get something sublime ... as compared to what the local guy or store.. throws in the parking lot.. and your rewards should be great ... now all i have to do.. is figure out.. how i ended up in the fruit forum .. lol ...

good luck ...

ken

ps: another trick.. is to talk with a local orchard ... they plant trees every year.. and they know what will easily grow local.. and often offer trees for sale... at planting time ... basically bare root stock they are planting.. thrown in a pot until you stumble by and buy them.. so they havent been in the pot long ... at least my local one does ....

Here is a link that might be useful: link

Ken...I think I made that point to redsun. The advice here has been chosen to be ignored...I dunno why.
You're right though...the big box stores never (that I've seen, and I always look) tell the type of rootstock. Somebody here found a nursery name on one of the tags (a supplier to Lowe's or Walmart I think) and called them. He asked what the rootstock was and they told him it was malus domestica seedling. The tree was supposedly semi-dwarf.
I've always suspected this was the case as it is the easiest and more importantly the cheapest way to propagate a tree for sale. How they arrive at the semi-dwarf listing is beyond me. I'd bet they are pips from the canning/sauce industry too.
If the situation was any different at all, they would most certainly list it on the tag.

I am jumping in at a weird time...I know. Some good points made here despite the drama. There are certainly many variables when buying potted or bare root stock. One thing that bugs me about some MAJOR growers in the San Joaquin Valley of Calif (one of the largest fruit growing areas in the world) is the way they dig out the young trees for bare root sales. These machines do major damage to the root system...getting them out of the ground. The bruised and battered roots always need pruning prior to planting. Not sure what the answer is...but be assured the methods are the quickest/easiest for those harvesting those trees.

There has been a lot of good input from a lot of experienced gardeners. My original question is about how bad root bound is, how to avoid it and how to correct.

But I did not expect this to be a container tree bashing party. There are pros and cons of both bare-root and container trees. I have a lot of room for fruit trees. If I see some very good deals at the end of the season from reputable growers, I would not hesitate to pick up one or two trees. Of course I'll need to plant them properly and give them a head start over the winter.

I do buy bare-root trees. I've had success and failure with both bare-root and container trees.