For comparison's sake, I dormantly over-seeded a different bare patch earlier than 25 days ago (it was probably about 50 days ago), but far fewer blades have sprung up than the regularly seeded dormant patch (not OVER-seeded), probably because high winds during a storm only 2 days later scattered the seeds in the OVER-seeded bare patch. Maybe some of the scattered seeds sprouted wherever they were blown to, but there was very little melting snow to help move the seeds downward to the soil, and in those scattered areas, the grass was not cut short or any possible thatch raked away beforehand to help the seeds reach the soil.

Can someone please explain the difference between dormant over-seeding vs. dormant regular seeding?

Thank you,

Are you sure it's turf grass ZoysiaSod? Not to be a buzzkill, and I hope I am wrong, but I looked at your weather for February and I can't imagine your soil temps are high enough for effective cool season grass gerrmination. Do you know what your soil temps are?

Tiemco wrote:
> Not to be a buzzkill, and I hope I am wrong

Uh, you are wrong. I assure you Tiemco that the cool season grass seeds I dormantly seeded on February 4 have sprouted. They sprouted about 25 days after I dormantly planted them. Today it was 67 degrees Fahnrenheit here; it was in the 60's yesterday too.

This isn't my first time seeding a cool season mix, my good man. In September of last year, I seeded rye, fescue, and KBG in one area of my backyard, and that stand of grass is looking great today.

My lawn is mostly zoysia, but I devote a small portion (about 10 percent of the lawn) to cool season grasses. You may not know this, Tiemco, but in the Transitional Zone, both warm-season and cool-season grasses grow fine. Of course, I have never sprayed my backyard with synthetic herbicides, like you.

I was foolish enough to spray the front yard with 2,4-D and I won't make that mistake again. All natural now. To paraphrase you Tiemco, I don't mean to be a buzz-kill, but I guess your clients get a lot of the synthetic chemicals, huh?

CPascal wrote:
> Can someone please explain the difference between dormant over-seeding vs. dormant regular seeding? Thank you.

CPascal, that's a great question. When most people say "dormant seeding," they actually mean to say "dormant overseeding."

In "Dormant overseeding" you drop the seeds onto your lawn, or "over" it, knowing that the seeds will be dormant for a while because of cold weather.

In "Dormant seeding," you plant the seeds into the ground--usually under 1/4-inch of soil--also knowing that the seeds will be dormant for a while because of cold weather.

A larger percentage of seeds germinate through dormant seeding than through dormant OVERseeding.

One's not necessarily better than the other--just depends on circumstances and what you want to do.

To increase the germination rate of the seeds you dormantly OVERseed, you can cut the lawn a little lower beforehand and dethatch it.

Wow, that's quite the chip you have on your shoulder, ZoysiaSod. I am aware of what your air temps have been, both day and night, for the past month, but as I'm sure you know, soil temps are what determine seed germination and they don't immediately correlate to air temps. That is why I asked if you knew your soil temps. I am fully aware of the Transitional Zone, and what grass species can grow there. Apparently you took my inquiry as a personal attack. As far at 2,4 D goes, it has been around for about 65 years, and if used properly and responsibly it is safe for use on most turfgrasses. It has been studied for decades and is approved for use in Europe, which is notoriously strict. I use it sparingly, spot spraying when necessary. One more thing, I am not a turfgrass professional, not sure why you assumed that.

Tiemco, I'd say the chip is on your shoulders. I've been kind and civil to you on many occasions in the past, even after slightly derisive remarks you've made to me in the past. But one can't turn the other cheek forever.

It will be interesting this summer to watch the area you seeded last Sept and compare with that you seeded in Feb.

What tiemco was asking about was whether you were certain what you were seeing was your grass seed sprouting and not spring wildflowers or annual weeds. You may not really know for sure until the plants are tall enough to mow. Many spring wildflowers sprout in the late summer or fall and will remain teensy until spring. Then they suddenly seem to appear out of nowhere. That is why preemergent does not work on those...unless you catch it with preem in the fall. Normally the seeds sprouting at this time of year are annual plants (weeds) like crabgrass. They are adapted to sprout with minimal moisture and even cooler soil temps. Grass seed, on the other hand, needs a lot of continual moisture to sprout. You said you have not given the seed much water besides the rains. It just doesn't sound like a grass explosion. Tiemco and I both hope what you are seeing is real grass. Again, it will be interesting to see how these two plots develop through the season.

And yes, ZoysiaSod, when you are new to a forum and bumping up against the old time gurus, the rest of the people reading will see you as someone with a short fuse and tend to shy away from replying to you. The questions we ask are based on reading thousands of previous issues that don't have anything to do with your situation but also those few issues that do seem to pertain to your situation. Tiemco will not ask you what fungicides you used because that has nothing to do with the issue. However he might ask about your soil temp. At first you might not get the connection but we're not trying to trick you...at least not very much ;-) You mentioned you added manure to your soil. When manure is used on top of the soil, it can absorb sunlight and warm the soil faster than, say, if you covered it with quartz sand (reflective). In my area we have roadside fires that leave the surface blackened. It seems like the grass comes in faster in those burned areas. Soil temp is everything in seed germination. But manure, and even new topsoil, can bring in new weed seeds that you did not have before. All I'm saying is hold your horses, answer the questions, have a conversation, and see what y'all can learn from each other.

David, there's a difference betweeen being respectful and rude. You and "Grasshole" have been rude to me on a number of occasions, considerably more rude than Tiemco. Maybe you don't believe gurus can be rude?

If you want to call yourselves gurus, fine.

The gurus I'm familiar with usually write books.

I place more faith in the information I obtain from published books than the information I obtain from the internet (especially from rude forum posters that call themselves "gurus").

Having participated in online forums for over 15 years, I know a lot of misinformation gets promulgated on internet forums. Lots of good information too. It's a mix of correct and incorrect info.

The sprouting shoots I see in the dormantly planted patch of February 4th look exactly like the sprouted shoots of grass that appeared in September in the September-planted patch, which is now very well-developed grass.

As a sidenote, perhaps dormant seeding should be called dormant planting, so as not to confuse it with dormant OVERseeding.

By the way, if you and Tiemco want to call yourselves gurus, feel free. But don't expect all of us to believe it.

I've determined who the real gurus are in this particular lawn care forum, and you and Tiemco aren't them.

ZoysiaSod, I was wondering when this time would come for you. So here is my perspective.

Some people who post frequently over a long period of time on this forum know what they are talking about with regards to growing grass, soil management and maintaining lawns. It has been a hobby for them for some time. They have read all the books (i.e. the required course curriculum) many times a long time ago. But they also have the knowledge of many years of hands on experience selecting cultivars, amending soils, weed control, planting, maintaining, observing what others have done, successes, failures, etc. They participate on multiple lawn forums (of which this one, in my opinion, is clearly not the most informative but still a good one. Much like a Triple A farm team). I consider Tiemco and David to be representative of those people.

Now recently you come along ZoysiaSod. You have often prefaced your post with "I only have eight months experience, I am no expert, but �.." etc. and then basically begin to give your opinions like it is the gospel on how to successfully grow grass and best practices solely based on cutting and pasting excerpts from old books on lawn care or sharing your self-admittedly short "hands on" experience. Much like a kid coming out of school with a new degree, you spout all this old research as if you are really "enlightening" everyone. Well guess what, to some experienced folks you are not. They have been there and done that. Heck I bet Tiemco and David learn very little from this forum now. They are basically just trying to help newbees not stumble out of the gate in their attempts at getting their lawns in shape. I know for a fact they could be sharing even more information they have acquired from other forums but do not out and out replicate it here out of respect for this forum.

I remember when I started to take interest in getting my lawn in shape. I googled everything. I was wise enough to understand that book knowledge is good and has its place but hands on real world experience is where the real practical knowledge exists. I visited this forum and saw who I thought knew about what I was interested in doing. He does not know it, but at that initial time it was Tiemco who I locked in on given he seemed to have the hands on knowledge of growing TTTF. Initially using a lot of advice from him and subsequently others, I have since done two 2500 sqft TTTF renos with reasonably good success. And with two renos I still realize honestly that I am still some what of a newbee. Maybe a newbee second class.

ZoysiaSod , if you are really interested in gaining knowledge about maintaining and growing lawns I would just cool out with trying to impress some people with what you have read and cutting and pasting. You just do not seem to understand that in this day and age ANYONE can GOOGLE this type of stuff. It is very academic. Look around these forums. Do you see anyone else constantly doing this? You ever wonder why not?

The strength of forums like this is to learn some things from folks who have "hands on, real world, done this" experience and also from people who share what they are doing, with their failures and successes.

Speaking for myself, I like learning from people on the forums. When I first started here I thought I knew about gardening because I went to an Ag school and took classes in it. 20 years and 4 houses later I found this forum. Within 6 months I realized I needed to unlearn almost all of what I considered to be the truth from the text books and the popular writers of the past. What sets me (and tiemco, grassboro, morpheuspa, grasshole, bpgreen, billl, turf toes, texasweed, andy, and a few others) apart from the rest of the thousands who have come and gone is that we never left. Considering the free wheeling policy of banning members from the GW forums for minor infractions, I'm kinda lucky that I have slipped through the cracks. Too many of the people I call gurus have been ejected. Furthermore we like to write about what we have learned. Many of us write articles, not books. GW does not have a good facility for writing articles or even FAQs, so we write for other forums where the articles can be saved. When we see things in books and magazines that disagree with what we see happening in the Internet forums, we will do some research and ask about it in the forums. Sometimes those questions have already been asked and discussed so we don't need to ask about it anymore. That's the beauty of having old timers. We can remember the good, the bad, and the ugly from the forums and bring that information back for the people who came in later. ...gotta run off to work now, but I have a few more thoughts on this side topic.

Knowledge is knowledge. Rudeness is rudeness. The two shouldn't mix, but unfortunatley, they sometimes do.

99 percent of the folks on this particular lawn forum are very kind, with a couple notable exceptions who revel in being rude. You know who you are. I don't need to point it out any further.

I can see by past remarks in other threads in this forum that a very small handful of rude folks here have alienated others, not just me. You know who you are. Work on your rudeness, and you'll be appreciated rather than unapprecieated by the folks you have alienated here. Perhaps a bit of quaziness is involved, but there's talk therapy for that. Look up "psychologist" in the Phone Book. You'll likely benefit.

Now I doubt Tiemco needs a psychologist. He simply took his cue of being rude to me from someone else, who I won't name anymore (because I try not to be rude myself). That "someone else" was a bad influence on him.

I'm done with this subject.

Tiemco, I can see you are skeptical for some reason, so here are the photos of the seedlings that sprouted:

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The white stuff you see in the middle and bottom photos is crabgrass that I sprayed with 5 percent white distilled vinegar last year. It's decomposing nicely, fertilizing the soil in the process.

I am somewhat surprised at the hostility I see here in the lawn forum. It seems like for whatever reason, people can't be civil toward one another here. It certainly takes away from the forum's value.

Dchall's post says some things I have wanted to say as well. I wish there were a place where some of the experts in various areas could write articles to help the rest of us instead of having numerous redundant threads where we have to sort through the personal insults, etc. to find the information.

I think it is important (because it will help avoid conflict) we treat any advice offered here as an opinion and not an edict. Offer your expertise for people to take or leave. If others disagree, have the gentility to let them. Those who think they know it all typically don't; most real experts (across all fields, not just gardening/lawns) are constantly learning and updating their knowledge base. Genuine experts/gurus are also humble enough to give people helpful information without talking down to them or acting like there is no other acceptable way to do things -- because that is almost always not the case. OK, enough soapbox for me.

MistaScott wrote:
> I am somewhat surprised at the hostility I see here in the lawn forum.

MistaScott, I agree with you. You should have seen some of "GrassHole's" posts in other threads. Very hostile remarks. I can't help but think he was masquerading as another person here.

It seems everyone's rudeness sensitivity has a different adjustment. If you want to see rude, flip on over to the Soils forum or the Organic Gardening forum where it is too common to gang up on one member and flat out call him stupid in so many words.

On the corn gluten meal thread which ZS started a week or so ago, he said I had accused him of something but he would ignore it because he wanted to remain positive. I put the following into a message.

Can anyone help me see where I might have made an accusation and one that had a negative note to it?

Then ZS replied with the following

Dchall_san_antonio wrote:
> In real life it is rare to find someone who has had a good experience with CGM as a preemergent.

I'm not sure if he was ignoring my request or replying to it. If anyone would care to help, please send me an email through my member page. I don't see it. It seems to me that ZS is egging us on by posting quotes that fly in the face of what has become common knowledge. When we try to explain either what is wrong with the quote or where the quote left off vital information or where the source quote was taken out of context, then the tone of the messages changes for the worse.

To me it is clear who threw the first punch on this thread. Tiemco asked some questions and ZS bit his head off. I offered some clarification and got my head bit off. ZS if you prefer to read books and do not like to read what we have to say in this forum, then why are you here? I'm not saying there is no reason to be here, I'm simply asking why you are here? Are you here to offer us the benefit of what you have read? If that is the case then we will respond completely differently. Most people come here to find out if what they have read holds water. We have made that assumption with you. If we have been giving you advice when you were not looking for it, then that might be the root of the antagonism. Giving unwanted advice is considered rude to a lot of folks. Please let us know. You can establish your credentials based on what you read outside the forums and we'll leave it alone.

I might add that disagreeable messages are one reason that forums lose membership. I've seen some really great people leave this forum simply because of one or two members who pestered them mercilessly. If you would not like to receive our thoughts and comments on your threads, it is easy enough to make that happen. Since I seem to be a catalyst for you, ZS, and since I don't see where my remarks are setting you off, then I'll stop replying with these thoughts and let you go.

Do as you please Dchall. I'm tired of discussing this matter, and it's off-topic.

Politeness goes a long way--it's the one thing we should all keep in mind.

MistaScott wrote:
> I am somewhat surprised at the hostility I see here in the lawn forum.

You should not be. After all they do play football on grass and that can get quite hostile.

Oh by the way, Butch said Hi. ;)

First of all, I never used the term guru, nor would I, to describe myself. Second of all, if you think my post was mean and derisive, let's analyze it:

"Are you sure it's turf grass ZoysiaSod?"
I was just asking as some grassy weeds can be mistaken for turfgrass.

" Not to be a buzzkill, and I hope I am wrong, but I looked at your weather for February and I can't imagine your soil temps are high enough for effective cool season grass germination."
Let see, I actually said I hope I am wrong, meaning I hope you are right in the matter. I also checked your weather for the past month as well as reported soil temps for the St. Louis area, and they are pretty borderline for most cool-season turfgrass germination, except for annual rye which can germinate in cooler soil temps but that will die out in a St. Louis summer.

"Do you know what your soil temps are?"
A fair question, but apparently some might find it offensive.

I think the problem is you got knocked around in that CGM post and as Grassboro pointed out, it was mainly due to your admitted relative newness to lawn care. Also your posts had an agenda like feel, as did your other post "I'm scared of Round-up" as do your posts regarding CGM on homegardenguides, gardenalley and google groups (see link below), no chemicals on gardenbanter (a UK website). Seems like someone likes posting the same thread on multiple sites, sort of like an agenda.

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.home.lawn.garden/browse_thread/thread/36825a2ea55c5505/73787de5f4026f1c?lnk=gst&q=zoysiasod#73787de5f4026f1c

It sounds like you're saying I have an agenda for liking natural, organic lawn care. Is that fair? Would it be fair for me to say you have an agenda for liking synthetic lawn care?

You like to use synthetic products. I like to use natural products.

I gave synthetic products a try, but didn't have good results, and the more I read about them, the more I like natural products :-) [smile]

I've never posted on HomeGardenGuides, GardenAlley, or GardenBanter--I don't think I've even heard of them.

I have posted on the USENET newsgroup called alt.home.lawn.garden. (You refer to it above as Google Groups but it's really the USENET and Google is branding it.)

The USENET newsgroups (everything from gardening to automotive to pet topics) is a public-license system. That's why web sites and companies can copy whatever appears on the USENET, and place that information on their web sites.

Public license USENET feeds used to be collected by DejaNews.com before Deja closed down and Google came along. I think the USENET started at Stanford University in the '80's or '90's. Then Reference.com or InReference.com got in on the USENET act in the 1990's when Stanford let the USENET go. A little later, Deja came along, then Google. I remember there was a brief period of 6 to 12 months when the USENET wasn't available or archived--that happened between Deja's time and Google's time. It was kind of wild to see that happen.

Regarding those other web sites you mentioned, what some web sites or companies do is copy the freely available public-license feeds on USENET and place them on their own web sites. So I guess that's how HomeGardenGuides and GardenAlley and GardenBanter got my post about Corn Gluten Meal as a preemergent. (In other words, I made that post on the free, public-license USENET newsgroup called alt.home.lawn.garden and the other companies just copied it from there.)

Again, more assumptions. I like and use products that work. My approach is a hybrid of synthetic and organics. At least half of my fertilizing is done with organics, and my herbicide usage is very low, generally spot spraying of weeds. I generally don't use preemergents, as my weed pressure is low and crabgrass isn't really an issue. My agenda is helping people learn about lawn care, and how to better care for their lawns. If that means telling people their information is inaccurate or false, then so be it. I belong to two forums, and I don't send out the exact same message to both sites, as you have done via USENET and this forum. Again, this is America, you can post all you want, but that also means you might not like some of the replies you get back.

Tiemco wrote:
> ....except for annual rye which can germinate in cooler soil temps but that will die out in a St. Louis summer.

Just wanted to say that the seedlings that sprouted in the 3 photos are of perennial rye--not annual rye. I used the Sun and Shade mix from Scotts. That bag contained perennial rye (uno and silver dollar varieties), creeping red fescue (Fenway and Wendy Jean varieties), and Kentucky blue grass (Abbey and Wildhorse varieties).

So there's a chance that the sprouts in the photos are fescue and bluegrass, but more likely Perennial rye since rye usually sprouts first. But definitely not annual rye. There was no annual rye in that bag.

>"Posted by tiemco 6ct (My Page) on Thu, Mar 1, 12 at 12:55
I can't imagine your soil temps are high enough for effective cool season grass gerrmination. Do you know what your soil temps are?" Hi Chris! Long time no talk!
You're right, soil temps are close, just not warm enough yet for turf grass.
See link here

http://www.isws.illinois.edu/warm/soiltemp/displaymap.asp?data=bst

As far as germination goes, yes, there is some! See the link below. (us "chemical guys", we know what Proxy and Primo is sprayed for)

ZS, since you put more faith in academics rather than the experience and opinions on forums, please look at those links too. They come from University of Illinois and Michigan State University. Both are renown academic agronomy departments.

Also ZS ..... you having Zoysia in STL, then by chance, do you live "on the hill" ?

Here is a link that might be useful: Proxy/Primo Seedhead Timer

Gary, both zoysia and fescue are found all over the Saint Louis metro area. The nice thing about Saint Louis is cool season and warm season grasses live in harmony.

>"cool season and warm season grasses live in harmony."

I think your two part harmony is sounding a little flat :-)