I think your plan is spot on. Level and grade with local topsoil. Water it for a week a little each day, to allow it to settle in & repeat as necessary.

But just to clarrify
> "I was thinking of spreading Tupersan initially to deal with the weed issue,"

FYI - Tupersan (AKA Siduron) is a pre emergent - preventing germination of crabgrass seeds and a couple other grassy weed seeds, while allowing the germination of turf grass seeds. It will not "deal with the weed issue" at all, just prevent future weed issues for a 30 day period, at which it needs to be reapplied again.

I would aim for a fall seeding. Use spring and summer to level and grade, while maintaining proper cultural practices for the lawn as a whole - ergo proper watering, mowing and feeding.

Come fall, scratch up the soil of your bare spots that are now level. Over seed the whole lawn, applying a little extra in the bare areas, top dress the bare areas with a 1/4" of peat moss and then keep the whole area moist to promote germination. Tupersan is applied at this time now.

See link below for everything you need to know concerning grub prevention and control prior to seeding in fall.

So, not a mess, just a seasonal project, one that will make you proud next year!

Here is a link that might be useful: Home Lawn Grub Control Products

Thanks for the comments. If I am raising the soil in a few areas 3 to 4 inches (I only have about 3500 sq ft of lawn of which about 800 sq ft is a problem in three separate areas) can I add the top soil over the existing lawn or should I rip it out? I was only going to use the tupersan thinking that I'd try and do a spring repair. I know it isn't ideal, but the thought of looking at all the bare spots all summer isn't sitting all that well. If I wait until the fall to seed, I would then go with a product like dimension right about now correct? Appreciate the help.

I've had related issues, grass problems, thinning, some grubs. I'm not a fan of the really strong chemicals for the grubs -- hard on kids who play, birds who eat the grubs, etc., and it doesn't seem to work for a long haul anyway. (Probably in part because the birds eat grubs and other things with the chemicals, get sick, don't return... more grubs next year.) Much reading has convinced me that with a lot of microbes in the lawn, and healthy dirt, the grubs get controlled and grass grows better anyway. I've had good success with the organic route, and while I don't get this nearly instant boost of green like I did when I put down all the Scotts, the lawn seems to do better in dry periods.

This year I'm trying a product I got at Agway, Lawn Booster by Organica. I debated about it, as it was $29 for a bag that covers 2,500 square feet, which is not the cheapest way to get corn gluten and whatnot. When I was in line, I said I wanted compost. The woman asked for what, I said for the lawn and microbes, and she said -- you don't need it, the Lawn Booster is amazing, and the microbes are part of it. My husband was delighted -- this product went in the spreader, and he didn't have to spend the afternoon spreading the compost over the lawn. That was worth the $$ right there.

Note: The corn gluten in the Lawn Booster is supposed to stop weeds from germinating for several weeks. Good for weed control, but will also stop new grass seed from germinating. I'm skeptical that it would actually halt germinating, but in any case, I've got an area to overseed and I'm going to wait for a few weeks to do it.

So that's my two cents. I'll post back to this site when I have a sense of whether Lawn Booster did a better job than other products I've tried. I'd not heard of it before going to Agway, but I've found good comments about it on the web.

Goodness, after reading my own post I sound like a commercial! I swear I don't work for any lawn product company. But I hate reading posts that talk about a product but don't say what it is specifically or where you might find it.

I'd love to hear from anyone who has actually used this stuff in a previous season and had good or bad results.

> "can I add the top soil over the existing lawn or should I rip it out?"

Sure, it will decomposs under the added soil. However, if you are covering nasty weeds, I'd kill those first before covering with new soil.

> "If I wait until the fall to seed, I would then go with a product like dimension right about now correct?"

Yes, correct.

You know, if you apply a pre emergent now ... feed the grass after you start regular mowings ... water deeply and infrequently .... mulch mow your grass at the highest setting and never cut off more than 1/3 of the blade, prevent grub damage - you might just be pleasantly surprised at the outcome by September. It can be done! *see below.

You can top dress the lawn when it is actively growing, using just enough soil to prevent smothering the grass, and grade and level it slowly throughout the year, little by little, allowing the grass to spread and fill into those bad areas.

*See the link below for some of my pictures ... proof in the pudding, so to say. I hope it encourages you and others reading this.

Here is a link that might be useful: Encouragement

Gary, thanks for taking the time to help. It's truly appreciated. I'm now thinking that I'll raise the low areas now and apply a proper dose of straight Tupersan. Water in, level off and then three weeks from now add seed, a thin layer of top dressing, a second treatment of Tupersan and a starter fertilizer. I have a few partially shady areas which need help and was thinking of a fescue/bluegrass mix for these areas only. KBG is there now and a bit thin. The rest of the lawn I was thinking of dealing with in the fall. Core aeration and overseeding. As for the grubs, everything I read says deal with it when the cycle repeats in early summer and the grubs are actively feeding. I was thinking of using Merit. Does this sound like an acceptable approach?

I have to wonder what the situation is that requires 3-4 inches of soil to fill?

With that much of a discrepancy you might consider hiring a landscaper with a tractor and boxblade to regrade your entire yard and start over. It would take a pro about a morning to do it and that would leave you with an perfectly prepared seed bed ready for rolling. If you need more soil or soil taken away, he'll handle it all.

Gary! Friend!! You hit one of my pet peeves (proof in the pudding, so to say). The proof is not in the pudding, the proof of the pudding is in the eating.

> "The proof is not in the pudding, the proof of the pudding is in the eating."

I'm in training!

avany: Your plan - go for it!

I'm sorry. especially to Gary who has helped me alot, but I gotta join this discussion here....

Avany... Im also in Long Island... and people who don't live here don't know about the annual bluegrass trouble that is prevalent. I'm initially from the midwest, and never saw it before until I moved here.

I did a new renovation last fall with an elite KBG, and half the lawn RIGHT NOW is annual bluegrass, or poa annua. Everyone I know who has done an elite kbg new lawn in Long Island so far has been floored with it.

If I could do it over, I would simply level or grade the dirt to where I want it, then go over to Eisenhower Park to do a soil test at the Cornell Coop extension. Most likely your dirt is well below 6ph... and I'd put down the fast acting lime, not the dolomitic stuff.. the fast acting lime costs around 20 bucks for a 30lb bag, and Hicks on Jericho Turnpike has it, or you can use Mag-I-CAL.... the dolomitic stuff is fine, but it supposedly takes 4 months to raise the ph.

Once you get the ph in line... I would fumigate and sterilize the soil with
Basamid, to kill every frigging poa seed in your dirt, which I can assure you has tons of them in it, since being on Long Island.

Then after the waiting period, I would seed immediately, and only use the organic slow fertilizers. And you'll need water alot in the summer. Also, you will need to put down Halts in mid August just in case the sterilant did not kill everything.

You cannot imagine the trouble Ive had with my new lawn...in mid-fall, two months after I planted, I realized more than half the lawn was poa annua.

I followed the general practices of RoundUp and such, but that doesnt kill the poa seeds in the dirt, which germinates mainly in September.

Using a soil sterilant, I think you gotta wait like 4 weeks afterward, to seed, but RoundUp does not kill seeds.

If the place you go to has left-over product from last year, you may find a very similar product called "Mir-A-Cal". I think they added a little humate to it and renamed it. As diclemeg said, it is great stuff. Each bag is equivalent to 10 bags of dolomitic lime, and works way faster. Click the link on the bottom for a more detailed discussion of high-calcium lime vs the dolomitic stuff you find at the home improvement stores. There is too much magnesium in the dolomitic stuff, and there are books that say certain weeds (especially dandelions) get out of control when the Calcium:Magnesium ratio is wrong. See the link if you want more info...

PS: another former LI man here - grew up in Uniondale.

Here is a link that might be useful: Calcium/Magnesium and Lime

I guess I'm at a crossroad here and not sure if I'm ready to give up and start over. The lawn was put down as bluegrass sod 2 years ago and last year extended with more bluegrass (no idea which type. We purchased the home after the work was done). Biggest problem last year seemed to be some crabgrass, a little goose grass and another I couldn't identify. Whatever type of weed it was would grow much quicker than the lawn after it was cut and looked a bit like the blue grass. The 3 to 4"s of needed soil is for a strip of lawn which settled over a septic tank (3' x 20') so it's not so bad. The other area which needs the over-seeding and to be raised needs about a yard and a half of top soil to grade properly. Being new to all this, the grubs and what's going after them pose the most puzzling problem, but I think I'll hope for the best and wait to treat in late June with Merit unless anyone has a better immediate solution. I guess it sounds worse in writing than I believe it actually is. So, what I'm asking, being a novice, is it worth giving repairing it a shot? There seem to be mixed views as to the approach. Thanks for the help.

> "So, what I'm asking, being a novice, is it worth giving repairing it a shot?"

I my opinion avany, it comes down to *your* desires and expectations.

Do you just want grass, just something green?
Do you want a lawn that is better than avaerage?
Do you want the best in the neighborhood and one that is the envy of others because you are a grass geek with OCD and claim that this is just a hobby of yours, LOL!?

All three depend on time, effort, budget and commitment.

I'd suggest like swimming - dip a toe into the water first, taking little steps and see how it goes. You have basically new sod - it can't be all that bad ... it just needs a little coaxing.

Thanks for the advice Gary. I just want to get this under control this year and hope that I will take the right steps moving forward to set the lawn up to be in real good shape next spring. Being a newbie, it's all a bit overwhelming. One last question. I think I have an idea after doing some research when to fertilize, and when to deal with weeds and grubs, but I'm not sure about what fertilizer make up (other than starter) to use when. I was thinking of fertilizing 4 times this year. April and late May and then early and late fall. I'm planning on using Lesco products as I have a Lesco 80# broadcast spreader and figure I wont have to deal with calibration issues if I use their products. Can you provide a little insight?

> "but I'm not sure about what fertilizer make up (other than starter) to use when. - I'm planning on using Lesco products"

You being on Long Island with a sandy loam soil and myself in Chicago with deep dark rich black soil, I can't give you any specifics really.

But I'll offer you this. Contact Cornell

http://cnal.cals.cornell.edu/

and have a soil test done. Then take your results to your local Lesco dealer and explain your situation and what you want to accomplish, using your time frame - it's fine. With the soil test results in hand, they will be able to set you up with the exact formulations needed for Long Island and based on those test results.

Myself, I'd ask for the slow release, coated urea products which are basically time released to give nitrogen over a longer period of time, rather than an instant flush of green growth.

Other than that, I think you'll be fine because you have a better grasp of things than the average newbie. Your plan looks fine!

Just always remember to follow the basic proper cultural practices.

Water deeply and infrequently, giving the grass 1 inch of water per week at one time - take rain into consideration.

Mow regularly so to never remove more than 1/3 of the blade.

Mow at a tall setting.

Keep the weeds at bay .... and you'll be fine.

If you're trying to rescue the existing grass and not necessarily wanting to take the "nuclear" approach of killing and starting over, I think your plans for fertilization timing sound pretty good.

Around here, the soil is naturally high in P and K, so products like 21-0-0 or 46-0-0 are the best choice. The amount to use depends on the size of the lawn and the first number. Even if you use fertilizers with P and K, apply based on the amount of N you need.

The goal is to put down 1 lb of N for each 1000 sq ft of lawn. If you're using 10-10-10, you'd need 10 lbs of fertilizer for every 1000 sq ft. If you're using 21-0-0, you'd need about 4.75 lbs per 1000 sq ft. To calculate the amount of fertilizer you need, determine your lawn size first. Some people take the size of the lot and subtract the space taken by house, driveway, sidewalks, etc. I measured the lawn areas and added them all up. Once you have the square footage, divide that by the first number on the fertilizer bag, then divide that result by 10. For example, I have a 4000 sq ft lot, and use 21-0-0, so I divide 4000 by 21 and get 190, then divide that by 10 to get 19. Since the bags have 20 lbs, I figure that's close enough.

I don't go by the spreader settings. Instead, I calculate what I need, set the spreader settings lower than what is recommended and make multiple passes in different directions until I've applied the amount I determined I needed.

Actually, that's what I used to do. For the past 5 years or so, I've been stopping at Starbucks whenever I pass one and spreading the coffee grounds I get there. I just fling them around while walking backward until they run out, then pick up where I left off the next time I get grounds. When I finish the lawn, I start over. If you have a large lawn, that's not practical, but it works for me.

A few other things to do:

Water deeply but infrequently. The goal is to apply an inch a week (adjusting for any rain that falls)

Mulch mow.

Mow at the highest setting of your mower.

ok avany, in the future, you cannot say that you weren't warned about being on Long Island and annual bluegrass problem.

diclemeg: Not discounting at all what you're saying about annual bluegrass problems. I just don't clearly understand the issue no matter how much I research it. For better or worse, I'm trying to move forward in a manner which might make the most sense based on what I actually see in the lawn. If annual bluegrass is a grass that mimics bluegrass but grows three times as fast after cutting, then I had a small issue with it in the front yard last year. I tried to look at a few pics online but couldn't clearly confirm I have it based on the images. Can you clarify for me why you feel so strongly about not going the way I'm thinking? And could you suggest an alternate short of scorching everything and starting from scratch? I'm learning here, so hearing about all approaches is very helpful.

Because there seem to be too many unknowns with what you have, combined with the general loam low quality dirt on long island, with acidic rains that make the soil acidic, that doing anything other than a proper full renovation, in my mind, would be a waste of time.

Now....I could be wrong about the condition of your soil and your grass type, which I would guess is a ryegrass blend of some sort of contractor mix, which will grow fine here in LI, but I guess it depends what you want.

If you want an elite KBG lawn that has dark color and is just gorgeous and have to mow once every two weeks, and one that you never see around here, then the full renovation with sterilization first, and using a MAG 3 or Galaxy plus blend, is the way to go. If youd be happy with the typical LI lawn , that greens up literally today, and one that needs to be cut every six days, and browns in the summer, and is thin bladed and thin, then youre better off just nurturing the one you have, and using Ironite to get it green.

Not sure if this helps but the original sod came from Briarcliff and is supposed to be KBG. The added sod, last year, came from Delalio and is KBG and seemed to match up fine. I contacted Cornell as Gary and others have suggested, and I'm planning on having a soil test done. I actually have clay soil in the front yard and the further back you go on the property, the better the soil seems to get. This was a newly constructed home which means yes, I'm also dealing with compacted soil esp up front. If it means anything, the hydrangea are Nikko Blue and mostly pink throughout the property but blue and pink at the furthest point from the house in the back yard. Can I assume that means the soil isn't horribly acidic? You are right about the lawn needing cutting every six days. I'm just thinking it might not hurt to give it one season to see if it can be made right. If it goes drastically wrong, couldn't I just wipe it all out late summer and start over? Anyway, thanks for taking the time to help. The information I'm getting here from all is truly appreciated, and if you'd care to comment on this latest post if it shed some more light, that would be great.

if i could do it all over again, id either do a full renovation and grow my own, but with sterilizing first.

but the far more easier option is to locate a very reasonable sod farm.. there are a few around walkill, ny, i forgot their names, but they were literally 40% of what the theif dalio or delia wanted to charge me. i think the place i almost went with wanted 18cents/sqf, delivered. i think it was called Sussex Sod Farm. i only suggest this option b/c of all the time ive wasted with the poa problem i have.

Diclemeg, Gary and all. Thank you for all the advise. It is truly appreciated and I think all of the approaches suggested could be followed and if handled properly I'd have a much improved lawn at the end of the summer or at worst next Spring.

I'm going to go with a modified approach, of leveling in the areas where the discrepancy isn't much and removing leveling and sodding the areas which need more than an inch to raise. If the approach doesn't produce the desired results, I'm going via the full Diclemeg approach. Thanks again for the help.