If you're using synthetic fertilizer, I think the recommended rate is 1 lb of actual N per 1000 sq ft 3 or 4 times a growing season.

The fertilizer should have three numbers like 10-10-10 or 21-0-0 on the bag. Take the number of sq ft in your lawn and divide by the first of those three numbers. Then take the result and divide by 10. So, if you have 10-10-10 fertilizer and a 4000 sq ft lawn, divide 4000 by 10 to get 400, then divide 400 by 10 to get 40. So you'd need 40 lbs per application.

You're probably best off fertilizing once in the spring, once in the fall, and once in late fall, after the grass has stopped its top growth but while it is still green. You probably don't want to fertilize in the summer for a couple of reasons. For one thing, it's more likely to burn then. For another, it will then need more water and will grow much faster, but the roots will not do as well..

I don't know how crazy spreads, so I don't know if KBG spreads like crazy or not, but it will definitely spread much more than fescue does. It will fill in smaller bare spots (eventually it could fill in larger bare spots, but the weeds will probably grow there first). It can also spread into gardens and even onto sidewalks, but it doesn't take too much to keep it in check.

Your blend of elite KBGs will in fact spread like crazy. Even more than "like crazy" if you fertilize it well to encourage spreading.

Billhill, I hope you are right. I did my renovation last fall, but have a number of bare spots. I'm seeding the large bare spots and adding tupersan for the crabgrass. I'm hoping the smaller spots (I'll apply tupersan to those also) will fill in with KBG this summer with no further seeding.

I better get my fertilizer ready to go, I want that elite KBG to go like crazy!!!

Its perfectly normal for a fall KBG seeding to look less than stellar this time of year. You will be amazed come June 1. If you want the ultimate lawn , consider organic fertilizers. Bill Hill

Bill Hill,

I do want a perfect lawn, but am scared of going organic!!! I am learning my way around the lawn (owned house for 2 years), never had a lawn prior to this...it is really easy to get synthetic fertilzer and weed killer, not to mention it seems to be less labor intensive...but maybe some day soon I will be brave enough to go organic..I know there are some different opinions on taking a hybrid approach, but I may try it one day. Thanks for the reply, your comments give me a lot of optimism about the spreading capability of my grass.

Lutz

Lutz, When I started lurking in this forum a few years ago, I though the organic folks were some kind of freaks. But eventually I tried some soybean meal as a fertilizer and mulched my autumn leaves instead of burning them. I also raised my lawn mower deck to cut at the maximum height instead of the one inch. I was amazed. And so were my neighbors. I know it is a huge leap of faith when most lawn care is heavily chemical. Try to locate a farm animal feed store, purchase 50 # of soybean meal and spread that on about 3000 square feet and you will see the difference. Take a look at this fact sheet http://ohioline.osu.edu/hyg-fact/4000/4031.html and read the gardenweb organic lawncare FAQ linked below. Good luck with your lawn this year. Bill Hill

Here is a link that might be useful: Organic Lawn care FAQ

I put in Midnight II, Bedazzled, and Moonlight last year. Yes, this spring is less than stellar (it's awakening, but kind of patchy yet), but that's to be expected.

I also thought the organic people were nuts. Then I tried it...

You'll find that all KBG spreads rapidly, and Bestlawn suggested very strong cultivars. I think they're all considered moderate spreaders, but that's relative. Aggressive spreading KBG would be too aggressive. I do like to have a life not spent edging the gardens.

Well, I am still kicking the idea around of going organic...I feel like this year would be a good year to start a hybrid program. Last fall when I killed my old grass and planted the new, all that old grass has decomposed and I have noticed a lot more earth worms than usual, so I feel like I am in a good place to start. I may check out a local feed store and see what all they carry, it would be nice if I could get everything from one place! It seems like a lot though because according to the FAQ that BillHill linked above, sometimes I will need up to 40 lbs per 1000 sq feet, I have just over 10,000 sq feet of lawn, so that would be 400 lbs of organic material, that seems like a lot of money and time spreading 400 lbs of organic. Morpheuspa and BillHill, what is your yearly plan this year? Is Scott's Organic a good option? Thanks again for the help.

Soybean meal at 15# per 1000 sq ft. would mean 150 pounds for your 10,000 sq ft. That rate gives you slightly more than 1 lb. N per 1000 sq ft. 5 applications Apr 1, June 1, Aug 1, Oct 1. and Nov 15. Try one application. It will take a minimum of 3 weeks to see any results but when it kicks in, you will be truly amazed. All the above being said, Chemical lawn care can be effective if properly managed. Most golf courses are Chemlawns. Bill Hill

I'll have to respectfully disagree with my fellow Michigander. My advice for a new seeding of KB is to hammer it with synthetic fertilizer. I've seen what the pros at Michigan State can do along these lines.

Over the years I've done a lot of turfgrass seedings. My neighbors no doubt think I'm crazy; each year killing off a portion of my lawn and trying something different. Last August I did a section with 'Moonlight' and 'Midnight II' KB, and hit it with 3 apps of 1 lb N synthetic before the snow came and hid it.

Now that I can see most of the grass, it is the best looking less-than-a-year-old KB I have ever had. I wish my crappy old digital camera hadn't died. I could take an interesting picture of three adjacent species showing this promising KB.

If you really want to go "organic", I'd still suggest a year of heavy synthetic first, then switch. And no, your grass doesn't need to be "weaned" or anything. It's just grass!

A.J.

Ditto.

Grass does not know the difference beteen organic and synthetic. I'm not againts organic fertilizer, they just don't work during the winter, Spring, and Fall months like synthetics do.

I have the darkest green kentucky bluegrass you are ever going to see. I use Scotts fertilizers.

BTW, you should be feeding that new lawn for the first year 5 to 6 lbs N. per 1,000. Yound seedlings and teenage grasses are VERY hungry for food.

Lutzd'
I have 2 of those KBG cultivars, Award, Bedazzled, and Blackstone in my back yard that was started in September 05. I guess I can tell you from experience where my mostly organic path has led me.

The seedlings never really got a good start before winter kicked in and they all looked dead in April 06.

{{gwi:81479}}

I hit the entire area with Scotts starter fertilizer and soybean meal 20# per 1000 sq/ft in early April. Then more soybean meal on Memorial Day weekend, another 20# per 1000.

By mid June this is the stand I had, so yes KBG does grow and spread very aggressively when fertilized and watered properly

{{gwi:83456}}

It takes a couple years to get well established and it was not until last summer that it started getting darker.

This last shot was in September of 07.

{{gwi:83457}}

My fertilizing has mostly been organic, only the starter fert was synthetic.

2006 schedule
March - soil test
April - ScottÂs starter/20# soybean meal/lime 25#
Memorial Day - soybean meal 20#
Week before 4th of July - Soybean meal 15# / lime 20#
Early August - Soybean meal 10#
Labor Day - Soybean meal 10#
Columbus Day - Soybean meal 15#

I had a lot of clover and funky weeds to start 2007, so I used weed be gone to kill those off, worked well. I also did some experimenting with Milargonite vs Soybean meal. I didn't notice any real differences after three months so I'm going back to soybean meal.

2007 schedule
April - Soybean meal 15#
Memorial Day - Soybean meal 15# in some areas, Milargonite in others.
Early June - Weed B Gone application - worked great.
Mid June - Soybean meal 7## in some areas, 1/2 dose Milargonite in others.
July 4th - Soybean meal 7## in some areas, 1/2 dose Milargonite in others.
Early August - Soybean meal 7## in some areas, 1/2 dose Milargonite in others.
Labor Day - Soybean meal 7## in some areas, 1/2 dose Milargonite in others.
Columbus Day - Soybean meal 14## in some areas, full dose Milargonite in others.

So this is what you can expect with Award and Bedazzled. I don't know how Prosperity differs from my Blackstone, but I can't see it being much different.

I cut the lawn down to 3.75" and mulch mow.
I water once a week 1 full inch. If it rains, I calculate and water that much less so it still adds up to 1" per week.

I tried fertilizing in 1/2 doses every 3-4 weeks. The lawn really took off and matured during July and August. I don't know if it was because it into its second summer, or my fertilizing practice of 1/2 doses. I do know that I am going back to soybean meal 100% since I will have a toddler playing in the grass this year and chemicals are out of the question.

You can use synthetics or organics, doesn't matter to me, I have used both over the last 6 years. All I can tell you is that when using organics, there are a lot more worms, ants, birds, and who knows what other of nature's creatures inhabiting my yard. These are all beneficial for the environment as well as relaxing when hearing all those birds chirp.

The other good thing about organics, you CAN fertilize in the hot summer months. Soybean meal, corn meal, etc., none of these will burn the lawn. They just feed the micro organisms in the soil. The process takes longer to see the results. Usually for me 10 days or so to notice, but 3-4 weeks later is when it peeks. Thus the idea of 3-4 week intervals of feeding in 1/2 doses so the lawn looks at it's peek all summer.

Either way, start early by getting a soil test done. That will tell you what your soil condition is like and what you need to add to make the best growing conditions for your KBG lawn. Do this now, so by May or June your lawn will look spectacular.

You are spending way too much time and $ on fertilization.
Use a hose end sprayer $1.00 and 2 quarts of liguid organic fertilizer. $20.00 applied 3xs a year. $61 total.
Liquid foliar spray reacts 20xs faster than any type of solid organic or synthetic fertilizer. And it is very fast and easy to apply. Most of your chemical and solid fertilizer ends up in the water table. All of the liquid fertilizer goes to the plant material.

Egghead, thanks--that is one beautiful stand of grass!

Thanks for all the input, I will take everything into consideration. I just can't seem to pull the trigger on organic, all thought it has a lot of positive traits. I must be brain washed by the synthetic companies :) Anyways, thanks for all the help and I will let you guys know what I do this year. I already know that I am throwing synthetic down in spring as I dormant seeded some spots and am using the starter fertilizer with siduron *tupersan* first, I am thinking if I do go organic, it would probably be in May. Thanks again.

"You are spending way too much time and $ on fertilization."

AMSOIL come out with a new fertilizer this year? How much organic matter does the liquid fertilizer add to the lawn?

They don't need to come up with anything new. The 4 products do it all. Organic matter doesn't do anything if it can't be utilized by the plant. Organic liquid is taken in by plants fast so Ph NPK and minerals in the soil do not mean anything to the plant. A farmer who always puts down coarse lime to regulate PH can by pass that laborous expensive task by spraying his field and or foliage periodically with fine liquid lime. It all comes down to particle size. The liquid has been filtered and concentrated so a farmer can fertilize at a minimum of $35 an acre. And they say organic farming is more expensive. Farmers are saving thousands of dollars a year with this method, especially with the $ increase in oil dependent chemical products. Now if you are taking care of your lawn the responsible way and using a mulching mower you will have plenty of organic matter. There are still lots of organophobe farmers out there set in their ways wasting our oil reserves.

Lutzd79, would you CUT this OUT, please? This is an association of people who enjoy their lawns. This is not (yet. sheesh.) a support group for people who will agonize, positively agonize, over such a decision as you are facing.

You get to change your mind.

Try one. Pick either A, or pick B, but say to yourself, "I'm going to have a lot of fun, this year, trying A. And if that doesn't impress the heck outta me, I'm going to switch to B" OR vice versa.

There is very little cost, to being 'wrong'. Actually, the correct label, on that choice, is not 'wrong'. The correct label is "the one I picked before trying THIS ONE."

We want you to have a little fun here. Look at this stuff in a new light. You are NOT facing a deadline, and your daughter is not getting married on that lawn (with pictures) late in June. You get to play with it. You get to try this, and then try that. You get to drag out a beach towel, and a beer, and stretch out, and your wife thinks you're finally going to tan. I know, and we all know, that you're studying Creeping Charlie. (With Beer).

It does not matter to me just what you do: I already know, it's going to look better than it did last year. I already know that the year after that, it's going to look better than the year before. So do you.

Here's a suggestion: look at your watch. Every decision that you have to make on that lawn, I want you to say "I will make this decision in the next fifteen minutes". Then do it.

But if you're not having fun, dude, you're missing the point.

What liquid organic product are you talking about? How many sq.ft. does a quart cover and how long does it last?

I'd like to know more about this liquid organic product too if it's available to the homeowner, but normally it's not for sale to the homeowner, and if we can get it it's not reasonably priced. It's generally used by farmers that have hundreds of acres, ball fields, golf courses, etc.

Still like to know, though aggrand_patriot.

Oh, I think this is what he was getting to...check the link.

Philes has it right again...and in much better humor than I could have presented it (although I understand the pain, worrying isn't really necessary).

Just so. You tried this and it worked, then tried this. Properly used synthetics are fine. Properly used organics are fine. You can shift things as you see fit, or even just as you want to try something new out.

Unless you dump too much active N on the grass (easier with synthetics than organics, I'll admit), you won't have too many issues that can't be easily corrected.

"Philes has it right again"

Yes he does. The reason I play around so much trying different things is because it relaxes me. I love the smell of fresh cut grass, I love to ride the tractor weather it be fertilizing, cutting the grass, or plowing the driveway. I love green, nice dark green, that relaxes me too. My carpet is dark green, my counter tops are green, my shower curtain is dark green, my outside doors are dark green, my tractor is green, green green green.
I even have 2 Big Green Eggs which pump out nice red steaks regularly that I like to eat while drinking a cold beer out of a green bottle after mowing my dark green lawn.

That's the key, have fun with it.

Now if aggrand_patriot will clue us in on what this liquid is and where we can get it, that would be great. I could save a lot of green on the lawn and maybe spend a little more on a nice green bottle of wine to relax!

I can not advertise products on this forum. You can call or e mail about this. 254 275-0033 schollhort@msn.com
Will cover 10,000 square feet per quart and will last, well depends on what you want to produce. Minimum of 4 applications per year.
You won't necessarily have to mow more with more applications either.

Now I agree with you egghead all the way.

aggrand_patriot ,

You've got mail!

Oh boy, I always love Philes' posts. Don't know how I stay away so long.

Lutzd, don't over think it. If you want synthetics, then that is okay. No, KBG does not need more fertilizer. The standard is #1 /1000 per application. About 4 pounds per year. Do not try to change the rules. Attempts to apply more fertilizer can prove detrimental. Efforts to apply more would be to either apply more at a time or to apply more often. Neither is a good idea. More at once can burn the grass. More applications per year can weaken the root system, which results in problems down the line. The grass might look great, growing and spreading like crazy, but it won't be healthy and you will pay for that. Info here on understanding fertilizer label and application.

But if ever/whenever you want to go organic, you can start with Milorganite. EazyPeazy.

The glory of KBG among other things is its ability to spread. It spreads because the root system develops both vertical roots and horizontal ones. The horizontal ones are commonly and technically referred to as runners and rhizomes and also produces tillers. The purpose of rhizomes is continuous branching that split and divide into more rhizomes and more tillers. Sooo, you have grass not only growing vertically from the soil, but it also grows across it. No worry with your varieties. The trait is universal to all KBG. Yours are not especially aggressive in so much as to be classified as "Aggressive Type" but that is a good thing.

Aggrand_Patriot, even though it does not comply with site rules and agreement, advertising on this forum has always been allowed - both with the former owner of GardenWeb and with the current owner. Frankly, advertising is absolutely necessary for this forum and perhaps that is the reason for implied consent. We have never been reprimanded, but I wouldn't suggest advertising for yourself or your employer. If you are not connected with the manufacture or sale of this liquid product, feel free to share with everyone and where to purchase.

philes21,

I thought I did CUT it OUT when I posted the last post on 3/18/08 at 5:59pm? I politely thanked everyone for their input, gave a brief explanation of my immediate plan, and just for good measure thanked everyone again! Done, finished, over! I left the forum thinking "wow, those people are so helpful, I am glad that I went to them for advice on what to do with my lawn this year" "I know they know a lot about organics and I know nothing about organics, such nice people!" I still have the same enternal thought process, but feel a little scorned by your post..."ouch!" Good advice you give, just rubbed me the wrong way with your delivery. I have seen a lot of your previous posts, so I know your comments are coming from a good place, but "ouch!"

bestlawn, I understand what you are saying about fertilizing more than needed, I was confused about ajer16's posts about fertilizing heavy the first year.

I didn't pay attention to who made the suggestion but did want to counter it.
Especially for someone who let us know he wasn't familiar.
I don't think Philes meant to pinch though. It's just his way of letting you know the decision
is a no-brainer. Good if you do. Good if you don't. He doesn't want you to agonize.
I'll ride his coat tail to let you know you don't owe anyone any explanations.
And don't have to feel pressured either.

Lutzd79, I am pleased to report that you took it the wrong way.

Thank you, Bestlawn.

Lutzd79, my intention was to be humorous, as well as to make my point. I'd like to make a couple of points, and I'd like you to reserve your opinion, until you've read the whole note.

1. We here, all of us, would like to help you.
2. When you're in these 'forums' on the internet, you don't have the benefit of face-to-face communication. You have to read the written word, and if the written word is badly drafted, then the 'wrong' communication can be 'received' by the reader. That is to say, the reader took it badly (perhaps somebody's fourth grade English teacher would be proud: that is EXACTLY what those written words meant) even though that is not REMOTELY what the writer (a little careless, with strict English) wanted to say. If we were face to face, you would know, from a little grin, from an arm-slap, and a great tone of voice, that I am entirely on your side. I am, by the way. Entirely on your side. But we don't get the benefit of that face-to-face, because we type, and we read, and those words can be quite sterile.

I'm sorry that you didn't get my point, or if you did get my point, I'm sorry that you didn't get the point in the spirit that I intended to give it. The fault is mine.

I wasn't intending a criticism of your plan. I was providing a gentle (and I thought 'humorous') nudge toward the thought that a person doesn't need to take this stuff TOO seriously. I was, really, worried that you were taking this stuff too seriously. I should have just said 'Relax: it will work out fine, no matter whether you choose A, or B, and no matter if you choose to change your mind later.'

But I wrote it badly, if you took it badly. I apologize for that. It's not what I intended.

I would like for you to feel welcome here, in this forum. This is the greatest group of people, and we all share an interest in lawn care. We don't all agree with each other, on every subject. But I believe I am quite safe in saying that we all welcome new members, and we all do what we can to provide good advice, to each other, and especially to new people: we want the new people to become old people on the forum, because we value our experience, but we also value YOUR experience. Keep us advised. And we are very likely to turn to you, next year, when some new person brings up, as a problem, what you went through this year. Sure enough, there will be four or five posts, saying 'Hey, you oughta get a response from Lutzd79, he just DID that.'

So my intention was to cajole you, to gently remind you that this is not (in my opinion) an earth-shaking decision, and that relaxing, and having fun with it, would be a good course of action. If we were together, in person, because you lived next door to me, the communication would have all the usual signals, the waves, the smiles, the shared wheelbarrow (probably yours), the shared two handled post hole digger (mine), and all the other parts of communication that are far more rich, far more accurate, than black type on a white page, here on the forum.

There are dozens of people here who can type it better than I can. Please don't give up on these folks, just because I phrased it badly. We all want to see you succeed, and we are all willing to share our knowledge, and our mistakes, and we all learn from each other. You are a valued new member of this group. Please don't take it badly, that my presentation was less than stellar. It's really not what I intended.

But I told you this first, and I'm going to tell you this last:

1. We here, all of us, would like to help you.

1. Quite correct.

I tend to think of Philes as the resident Puck. When you see his name atop a message, smile--and take everything in the best humor possible.

philes21,

I too was making an attempt at humor by saying "ouch", I didn't take your comments to heart, yes it seemed a little stern, which resulted in the "ouch", but I didn't lose any sleep over it. Thank you for your response, I appreciate that you took the time to explain your previous post, but I apologize that you had to spend time explaining your previous posts. If it is okay with you....I would like to put this little misunderstanding behind us and move on! Just try not to "pinch" me :) and I will try not to agonize over little things :)

Done. Many thanks.