Your last try you can do by layering, really, I wouldn't, take some dormant last year's growths and graft onto vigour's
root stock or onto a branch on other trees.
This is the way to do it, has been around for hundreds of years and still the best.
Many years ago, I talked to our provincial tissue culture business and when told her that I'm grafting
fruit trees, she wanted to tell me that this is outdated and they are starting to grow apples on their own
root,... nothing ever became out of this!
You can plant apple seeds from this tree and graft in 2 years, I have done hundreds this way.
Konrad

Yep, you are gonna want to get some apple stocks or seedlings and learn to graft. It is pretty easy. After you get some grafted up, you can slip a fender washer or zip-tie just above the graft union, so when the tree starts getting girdled, only roots from above the graft will grow, giving you a tree on its own roots.

Oh, bury the whole union several inches under dirt with perhaps 2 or 3 inches of the scion under soil as well. That is what is going to root.

I did this technique this summer, only I let the apple grow a foot high, then I slipped a tin can (bottom cut out) over the tree and filled with dirt to give it something to root into. Same concept tho.

Personally, I would be happy with the rescued scion just growing on EMLA 7 rootstock! or M9.

I have a solution. Since its in a hedgerow we'll assume it's NOT a grafted tree. All you need is a nice piece of root. Dig at the drip line and harvest nice healthy root or three 1/4 to 1/2 inch in diameter. You'll find the roots about 6 inches down. Make sure you get a nice bunch of fine feeder roots attached to the cutting. Do this as soon as you can dig in the spring. Graft onto them with a whip graft, or a chip graft from the same tree. Use the root cutting exactly as you use commercial root stock. Now you have the tree on its own root stock. If you dont want to graft, plant the root cutting. It might sprout some new growth. Presonally I wouldnt bother with trying to root hardwood cuttings.

It IS grafted, no doubt about that. I'm looking for tips on growing it from cuttings, as I want it on its own roots. Even if it has a 99% failure rate I will be pleased with the one surviving plant I get out of it. The tree is immense, there is no lack of scion material.

>>A glance at its base shows what is clearly an old graft union, so it was definitely an old fruiting variety.This doesn't mean that it's grafted. It could be ether or.
Most apple trees at 3 feet trunk, you shouldn't be able to see the union.
You might have thought it was a union because of the bulging from something,
this could be of many reasons, like some sort of injury etc.

In order to tell, you have to get some bottom growth or suckers and compare to top growth, or get a DNA done.

You're still asking...
My idea of layering doesn't appeal to you?

Konrad

I'm with Konrad, the master grafter. What's more, I fail to understand why you are going to such great lengths to propagate an apple whose fruit you haven't tasted. Even if it is a grafted variety it may be something you have no use for. Only about one in a hundred heirlooms have any appeal to me. Why not give this tree enough care for it to show its stuff.

I've tasted the fruit- its exceptional. Sometimes you can see an old graft union on trees; a good example of this is the photo of an exceptional Acer shirasawanum in the Maples of the World text. I mention that photo in particular because the graft union on that looks identical to that of this old apple tree. There is a portion of the trunk at the very base of the apple tree which is several inches wider than the rest of the bole, making it very obvious. I have seen similar graft unions in some of the many orchards in the area. The fruit being some of the best I have tasted makes it even more likely. To top it off, the site was originally a large apple and peach orchard that was allowed to grow up in some spots (thus the hedgerow) and was converted to cornfield in others.

I ask about cuttings in particular because it is something of a pet project; I know how apples are propagated conventionally but I want to see if I can get cuttings to succeed as well. I probably will resort to grafting just to keep this germplasm alive, and maybe someday a DNA test wil be available to help me pin down the variety. Thank you for the advice and happy growing!

pteroceltis:

It may be that your expectations for advice were a little high. If you have advanced to a tissue culture course you probably already know much more than the vast majority of us here about how to propagate trees.

While there are a few professionals and commercial growers who contribute to this forum, most of us are backyard growers with only several or a dozen trees. Yes, there are some grafters and experimenters among us, but few of us have academic training in horticulture. I am probably one of the longer-serving hobby orchardists at 30 years and 70 trees, but I am by no means an expert on propagation. While you prefer to grow trees on their own roots, for me any tree that grows and produces well can do so on any roots at all, and I see only the disadvantages of growing apple trees on their own roots. That is why fruit scientists have been working on clonal roostocks for so many years. I must say that Konrad's suggestion of air-layering made sense to me to achieve your objective.

The next time your tree sets a good crop, pick some of the best examples and take them to a local orchardist with some experience. If you can identify the variety, you may find it was commonly grown commercially, and may in fact still be grown by some of us who favor heirloom apples. Old apple varieties usually disappear because they are not so good, and many of the best are still alive and kicking in hobby orchards.

Don Yellman, Great Falls, VA

I admire your drive to accomplish the unconventional. Your kind of determination leads to the greatest accomplishments After sleeping with your question a couple things occured to me. Apples vary greatly in their ability in generate root primordia. The apples from which we get our rootstocks were selected partly for their ability to reproduce through stooling.

Some old varieties like Northern Spy actually generate root primordia on the exposed bark, I used to think these growths were a kind of mysterious disease.

Other varieties have cells in there cambium that easily dedifferentiate into rooting tissue and can be grown from cuttings using conventional root hormone and misting techniques. This is a matter not within my direct experience but that can easily be researched, I'm speaking from distant memory of readings.

Harold Tukey states in his classic book "Dwarfed Fruit Trees" that most varieties are unable to generate root from above ground tissue and that the frequently repeated warning about planting dwarfing rootstock too deeply because the scion will root out is an exaggerated threat. I have seen entire commercial orchards (multiple cultivar) that were planted below the graft union on semi-dwarfing rootstock that suffered no excessive invigoration. Still, the majority of knowledgeable fruit growers write and talk of their concern about keeping dwarfing rootstock above the soil line and I still try to follow their advice(such is the power of the written word).

Well, it seems to me that this particular unknown variety has done very well with whatever rootstock it was grafted onto - why not repeat the success? Google up "root-grafting" or get hold of a copy of Garner's 'The Grafter's Handbook' - you should be able to dig pieces of root from this rootstock, graft scions of your desired variety onto them, and plant them - Voila! A near identical copy of the tree, even down to the level of rootstock variety - only, if you plant them with the graft union below ground level, the scion *may* root - but even if it doesn't, would you anticipate that your 'new' copy would fare any worse than the original?

Did you think about air layering? I'm going to experiment with it this spring on some apple trees in my yard. Try scarrifying the bark of your intended cutting and apply rooting hormone with fungicide. Apply damp peat moss or coir and wrap with clear plastic. Seal both ends with tape and wait until you see roots through the plastic. Leave for another week just to be sure and cut it from the tree. It's a lot like layering, but you can do it with a higher branch if necessary. I've been trying to get cuttings to take root from pieces that I've pruned in winter and summer. The success rate is pretty low and you end up with a pretty big tree in the long run. I don't mind tall apple trees, they make nice shade trees. Disease resistance might be low in a cutting on its own roots. But like you said, it's just an experiment. I had better luck (1 out of about 7) with semi hardwood cuttings about 12 inches long. Most died within a year from disease, but I've got a few that are 2 and 3 years old. I did it as an experiment because I didn't have anybody to teach me and there's only so much you can learn from a book or computer. Try taking cuttings with dormant wood, wood right after bud swell and wood with leaves. Good luck with your experiments.

I got this book "Uncommon fruits for every garden" and in the appendix the author explains this relatively new "etiolated shoot method" that allows one to grow plants from cuttings from plant varieties that it was previously impossible to grow from cuttings, and he specifically mentions mature apple trees.

Basically you wrap a terminal bud with an opaque tube in late winter. Then when spring comes and dormancy breaks, the shoot growing from the bud is growing in darkness. Eventually the shoot grows out the other end of the tube, and this part grows normally. Then you gradually admit light to the bottom of the shoot, but always keep the bottom end of the shoot wrapped to keep it dark. For example, if your tube was originally 3 inches long, you wait until the shoot grows six inches long and then gradually lower the tube/wrapping so it's only covering the bottom 1 inch of the shoot.

You then cut off the whole shoot and treat it like any softwood cutting - I myself would apply rooting hormone to help rooting.

The author says that this method works so well because the bottom bleached or etioalted shoot, which had been excluded from light it's entire life, roots so readily, while the green parts of the shoot feed the growing cutting.

I have yet to try this method myself, but it sounds very useful, and I bet it'll work with almost any tree or bush.

"opaque tube" could you be more specific? thankyou.

Yes, I mean a tube that excludes light - i.e. it's not transparent or transluscent. The etiolated shoot method simply involves letting a shoot grow, but keeping the bottom portion of it in complete darkness. The parts that never receive any light never develop any chlorophyll and root extremely easily.

There is also a similar method where they keep entire seedlings in the dark and make numerous cuttings as the seedling grows (or something like that - I know the plant needs light to grow - I think they use a sucker or something)

I just happened to be reading "The Grafter's Handbook" again and Garner makes reference to that very propagation method for use on species that don't root easily. He specifically mentions apples as being amenable to propagation via etoliation.

OK, this is interesting, but if this method is actually pracitical why is it not being used commercially? Difficult to graft varieties and the need to inhance cold hardiness would seem to be adequate incentive for broad use of this method. Are we actually dealing in alchemy here? I hope a couple of you put this method to the test, but I'm a little skeptical.

harvestman,

Posters have explained why they think propagating apples by rooting cuttings is impractical and unnecessary it sounds like pteroceltis was interested in doing it for his/her own personal gratification.

Most people don't want apples on full grown roots and for those who do it is very easy to grow a seedling and graft to it. So why would they bother trying this method?

It sounds like pteroceltis should try it along with whatever other experiments and let us know how it works while we remain skeptical, assuming it qualifies as "from cuttings" more than air layering does.

I wasn't talking about using this method for apples as being a reason it would be used commercially if it actually worked. I was thinking it would be used in commercial production for other species like persimmons and nut trees if it was actually affective. I'm not trying to discourage the attempt, just discussing my reservations hoping someone out there has actual experience in using this technique. If it worked it would also be very useful in peach production of varieties for cold climates because the graft union increases susceptability to cold injury.

If I was considering trying this method, I would certainly be interested to know if anyone actually does it succesfully.

if you do a little googling you'll see that they do use it (etiolation) to some some extent commercially, mostly with tropicals (avocados, for example).

Remember that as simple as it is, this is a relatively new technique. It takes a while for new practices/ideas to catch on, even if they are very useful. Not to mention that most of the time grafting and the other propagation methods have been working just fine; there isn't much of a reason for most orchards/nurseries to change.

Peanut tree, thank you, you partially answered my question, though generally. If anyone is interested in this technique they'd be well advised to contact one of the companies you say you found on the internet. I'm sure there's a propigation geek there with useful insite.

Your comment about conservative practices of commercial nurseries is true on the surface but in many universities people are attempting new propigation techniques for all manner of fruiting species and there is always some linkage between the universities and industry.

I recommend that you join NAFEX which I frequently suggest to all of you with a keen interest in fruit exploration. They have members involved in this kind of research as well as commercial growers that aren't so conservative that they won't investigate and use new technology.

I tried etiolation on a fig tree last year. I did not use the method exactly as described. I wrapped a limb where I wanted it to root with electrical tape... on hind sight, it would have been better to wrap it sticky side out. I did this to four limbs. Two of the limbs I wet a piece of plastic (cut ziplock bag) and shook out as much of the water as I could. Then I wrapped it around the limb followed by the tape. The other two were wrapped in tape. The results...

{{gwi:125659}}

{{gwi:125660}}

{{gwi:125661}}

{{gwi:125662}}

The first three pictures are with the plastic the last one is without. I forgot that I did this, so the tape was on for over six months... probably much longer. I

~james

Come on, figs don't count!

harvestman, you succintly conveyed the same sentiment I had on seeing the fig post :)

I understand apples may be slightly more difficult to propagate than figs. It wasn't my intention to suggest etiolation would work as easily (or at all) on an apple limb. I was merely showing the technique I used.

I'm sorry, I wasn't trying to mock you but apples are a damn sight more difficult to root than figs- not slightly. Just stick that green wood in the ground and prevent it from drying out and you've got new fig trees!

I appreciate your contribution and I wasn't trying to make you feel stupid so I could feel smart, at least I hope I wasn't! If I was call me the idiot.

Cool pictures btw. bjs, what was your motivation in doing that on your fig tree? Is that variety difficult to root, or was it just for fun?

Harvestman,

No apologies necessary, I understood where you were coming from. I was being facetious when I said it was slightly more difficult.

Murky,

I have a large fig tree in the ground which is infested with RKN. I am trying to air-layer some of the larger limbs off the tree. Someone in the Fig Forum had some information about this method on their website, so I thought I'd try it.

I don't know that it of much value on plants that are easy to root (I probably won't do it again on a fig tree). It maybe, however, give a little bit of an edge on the harder to root trees.

I'm bringing this thread out of the basement and dusting the cobwebs off to update some of my apple experiments. I copied bjs496's idea that he did on a fig tree. I found that wrapping apple branches that are larger than a pencil is best. Shoots should be growing as upright as possible to make sure the tree will grow correctly. Some of the shoots that were growing closer to horizontal act like horizontal branches even when removed from the parent tree. Wrap 8 to 10 inches of the shoot starting about 6 inches above the point where it grows from the trunk or branch. Also make sure to wrap with the adhesive out to keep from removing some of the root tissue as you unwrap the tape to check it. You can really tell when the shoot is forming root tissue. It gets very bumpy under the tape and will actually stretch the tape some. I'll post pictures of some of the larger shoots I have done this to that are still attached to the parent tree next week after I can go to my mom's house again. I was experimenting on trees at my mom's house because some of them are severely neglected and in danger of dying from various things. Try to select shoots that are branched a little near the top to give a good shape to the tree once it is removed from the parent tree. Shoots don't do very well if removed in the summer. I found this out the hard way. 3 out of 6 limbertwig shoots died within a week of being removed. The other 3 made it, although not without a lot of effort on my part. The rest of the shoots will be removed at regular intervals once dormant to see when it is best to remove them. I will evaluate which shoots do best based on speed of root establishment, time of bud swell and break, also the rate of growth in the spring and summer.

You guys are awesome. This is just what I was looking for. The pics are great, keep them up. Now can any of you answer what may sound like a dumb question? Will the scion that has been air layered or etiolated exhibit all of the characteristics of both the grafted variety and its' grafted root-stock, ie: hardiness, growth habit, or will the scions' roots revert to some unknown parentage? In other words are you getting a perfect clone of just root characteristics and just fruit characteristics?

One other consideration.
A 'Standard' Apple tree will take up to 9 years to set fruit. Northern Spy is a notoriously late one. Are you willing to wait that many years with a barren tree?
A tree on M9 could easliy bear fruit in 2 years.
On M26 in three.
And of course, I would not graft it into an established tree of your own, unless you're pretty sure it is free of systemic diseases or Virus. Some trees are symptomless 'carriers' of a virus.
But when you go and graft into your own tree, wow, here comes the mosaic leaf symptoms.
This is the voice of personal experience.

Here is a link that might be useful: Fruit tree virus

anoid1

If you root a cutting you will get all of the genetic characteristics of the variety (scion).

The root characteristics will be those of the variety as well. So if you are taking the cutting from a grafted tree you will get completely different root characteristics which will also affect the way the tree grows and behaves.

With most cultivated varieties I suspect that nobody knows how their roots perform because they have always been propagated by grafting.

In most cases one would presume they'd behave as "standard" but that is only a very general term. Its technically possible (although unlikely for any given one) that some of the cultivated varieties have genetics for dwarfing roots.

Certain apple varieties are pretty small, like the Golden Delicious, but some of them are monstrous big, like Gravenstein and Mutsu. The Triploid types tend to great vigor and would be a real headache to prune and spray. Guess it depends on how much time you can afford to spend out there pruning and climbing ladders.

Thanks Murky. That's what I thought, which is why we graft rather than have the scion revert to some unknown set of unwanted characteristics. Now does anyone know if anyone has established a searchable data base of genetic profiles for fruit varieties?

Some fruit catalogs , give a general range of vigor for the trees they offer, but of course if this is an Antique ? Apple, it is anyone's guess, save if the tree is already a giant, it will produce more of the same.

Here is a link that might be useful: Apple tree vigor

pteroceltis,

I have been reading The GrafterÂs Handbook, and I when I read about a method for propagating shy-rooting stocks during construction, I thought about you. Basically you take a normal piece of scion and graft it directly to the roots of the rootstock. You place a band around this rootstock, and then plant it deeply in the soil. The band will eventually constrict the rootstock while the scion develops itÂs own roots. Eventually the rootstock roots die and the scion lives on itÂs own roots.

I suppose you could just take a normal young tree and tie the band just above the graft line, then plant it deep enough for the stem to grow itÂs own roots.

If the tree has any low branches you can stake one down to the ground and throw some soil over it. I've had success with this as well as air layering with moss and a ziplock baggie. The vast majority of the grafting that we've done has been on M7 and M111 as we know they do well in our area. I'd be inclined to use some of the existing root as you know it has produced a large long-lived well developed tree in your area. You also will have an idea of what your new tree will end up looking like. Given the tree's likely age many orchardists back then were using seed grown rootstock and testing the DNA etc could be wasted money.