but yours are free to you, you know where they came from, and there was no fossil fuels needed to get them to you. so they can't be just as good imo.

Surely this will raise a few hackles, but in my opinion persimmons are a marginal fruit (at best) for my region and taste. I've had many kinds and had them many ways over the years (the best being a dried "mummy" from a farmers market). I would never plant a persimmon tree knowing that any fig, pomegranate, apple, lemon, or mandarin orange that ripens at the same time will completely blow it away.

So yeah, buying a handful of persimmons here or there is a perfectly fine plan. Likewise, I wouldn't hesitate to cut down a persimmon tree and plant something truly exceptional.

Well, I absolutely love Fuyus and wish I could grow them here. I can buy them at a nearby Asian market right now- some that are shipped all the way from Israel that they call Sharon fruit that are pure sugar. My Shin was supposed to produce non-astringent persimmons but needs to be eaten quite soft so I still don't get to grow my own non-astringent persimmons.

I know what you mean by the disappointment of being able to buy quality fruit that you thought you could only get from your own trees. The same market I get my Fuyus sometimes will sell pluots for 99 cents a pound that are as good as my best J. plums. Mass production can have its virtues and make all your simple labor seem like squandering time sometimes. The quality of store fruit is unreliable, however, and your labor is real and good for your health- mental and physical.

MC, why would anyone be upset that you don't happen to like kakis? I can see why they would not appeal to some palates- all sugar and texture with no bouquet. I'm actually surprised I love them so when Asian pears no longer much appeal to me although they would seem to be in a similar class.

mrclint,
You're not liking persimmons might raise some hackles in Japan -- definitely not a minor fruit there! But seriously everyone is entitled to his/her own opinion. Me personally, I just love as much variety as possible with fruit, and growing it myself is so very much more rewarding than buying it...

I think that the OP's observations about "grocery store" versus homegrown persimmons sounds about right. I've had the very same experience with citrus brought to me directly from both commercial farms and backyard trees in Florida -- excellent quality, but no better than the best grocery store citrus I've been able to buy.

To me, it all boils down to the perishable nature of the item. Things that store really well, or require an extended off the tree ripening like citrus, persimmons, or pears, and which are "sturdy" enough to ship well, stand a chance of reaching mass market outlets in good shape. It's the thing that don't store or hold well, that are highly perishable, which are picked so green as to be pretty worthless most of the time when purchased at your typical grocery store.

My 2 cents worth.

Den, I haven't found this to happen with pears or apples at all. Commercial pears, besides Bosc, seem often to be picked too green (unless bought in those fancy gift baskets), especially Asians, and apples take on the flavors of the grocery store as well as often not being picked at the right time- either too green or too mush. Also the varieties tend to be limited, of course.

I think it's pretty much true of avocadoes and persimmons and much less often true of most other fruit, including citrus which, too me, is always tastier right off the tree at peak ripeness. Maybe it's a different story in FL but I lived in CA for about 20 years and the best citrus I could find was right off the trees.

Of course, I could only prove this by blind taste tests.

When I lived in California, I had some great fruit at the local supermarkets (and Costco) that rivaled anything that I grew, especially early in the season for that fruit.

However, the majority of time, fruit at Safeway, Whole Foods, Costco, et al., is often marginal. Usually because most stuff on the shelves are generally out of season and are there because of advances in food preservation technology -- cold storage, waxes, et al -- or overseas production (Chile, Central America).

As time goes on, however, my wife and I have noticed that supermarket fruit has continued to get worse and worse, even during peak harvest periods. Farmers are growing their fruit larger and larger, but either the water content is too high (to produce a big piece) and it's diluting out the sugar, or most fruit is being picked early and being artificially ripened.

So, in summary, your Costco fruit may taste good today, but that doesn't mean that next year's shipment may be of the same quality.

My location in zone 4 prevents me from having the opportunity to experience many fruits. Be it either for growing or purchasing them. So am always on the lookout to try something else new, whatever it takes to accomplish that.

It just so happens that persimmons are finally beginning to show up in several grocery stores around here. I purchased two Fuyu's several weeks ago to try. I was pleasantly surprised with the experience. Good enuff that I purchased 10 more when they ran them on sale the following week. Original price $1.99 each. Sale priced at $1.18 apiece. Even at the sale price, I figured close to $2.00 per lb.

These seem to have a nice ripening spread about them. In other words, one or two a day have nicely matured. The skins are just thick enuff to protect the interior flesh, so also seem to have survived the shipping process quite well. Several apparently beneficial aspect about them.
These seem to be a fruit that will continue to be a more readily available fruit for me in the future. Is really nice to get the chance to add something new into my varietal mix.

Several other people I let try them have also liked them. One of my sister's called it a 'goober' fruit though because of its consistency. We had us a laugh, and then continued to eat and enjoy them none-the-less. Overall, a positive experience. Glad I was able to partake.

I assume that their is quite a bit of difference in the quality of the different persimmon types. Much like that which is experience in the myriad of apple varieties. Fuyu is the only type I have seen available so far for me. Maybe I should consider myself lucky with that choice? I'd be curious to know a little bit more general taste/flavor info about them on that regard, from others with more experience with them.

Thank you,,,Questor3

Grocery store fruit is only rarely excellent, and certainly not very diverse. Except for apples, you only find 2 or 3 varieties of a given fruit, if that.

And since size, appearance, and shipping tolerance are the main criteria for selecting these varieties, what you can't find in the store is often tastier. So one of the biggest arguments for growing your own is being able to choose from a multitude of fascinating varieties. For example, I know nothing from the store will ever top the Black Krim tomatoes or the Orangeglow watermelons from my garden.

Maybe some things, such as persimmons, are not like this, but you can still grow some obscure variety with special attributes and know that you could never get it from the store.

For me one of the main reasons to grow fruits is a pleasure to observe them growing. Even if I can buy fruits of similar quality (which is not that often), it is not the same. When I see beautiful persimmon (apple, peach, pear, whatever) tree in my yard loaded with fruits, it gives me much more satisfaction than I can ever get shopping at Costco :)
Olga

I have similar sentiments - while I do like eating the fruit from my orchard, I think I more enjoy touring my orchard seeing the trees and vines in their full glory of the season, ripe colorful fruit everywhere.

I've tasted a number of different varieties of persimmons, and I would have to say that the best of them all came from the shelves of a grocery store. These persimmons were imported from the Mediteranean region and I believe that the varieties grown there commercially are much more appealing than the typical Hachiya and Fuyu/Jiro grown domestically or imported from Chile. I also think the Mediteranean climate of coastal Spain and Italy is better for growing a tastier persimmon than I could ever expect in the U.S. northeast.

Creekweb I have never seen a persimmon from Spain and I'm on the east coast where Spanish and Moroccan citrus are common as well as persimmons and tomatoes from Israel and I'm always looking for the source of fruit. Even here, most of our store bought persimmons are from CA. which can grow anything as well as Spain if it is done with the same care.

Compared to Spain and Italy the only problem with CA could be excessively deep and rich soil for fruit, I think,
but with irrigation control that wouldn't matter except for fruit that ripens during the rain season. Persimmons would usually be in before first rain.

The Shin persimmons I harvested this year were every bit as sweet and good as the best astringent varieties I've ever purchased. Just smaller. They didn't need to be quite as slimy to lose astringency. In the northeast you need early maturing persimmons to have adequate sun.

I don't agree that storebought persimmons taste better. Sometimes they taste equally good, but homegrown persimmons have excellent taste for me.
As for the difference in taste of diffirent non astringent persimmons, not sure if chocolate can be classified as fully nonastringent, but it definitely has very different taste 9excellent). I think Ichi ki Kei and Jiro, as well as Hana taste similar and all very good.
Olga

Thanks Olga. If you could only grow 2 non astringent's, which would they be?

Thanks,

I don't know, honestly. Even though the taste is similat, they all are different in tree structure, fall leaf color, tree/fruit and size, productivity, etc. They also get ripe in slightly different time. So I would grow them all :). If I am pressed to choose two, I would probably choose Jiro and Ichi Kei. But these are my most mature persimmon trees, so probably I am not objective.
I was really impressed with the taste of chocolate persimmon (grown in somebody elses's garden aroungd here), but my tree is still young. Can't wait to have good crop of chocolate persimmons at my place.
Olga

Harvestman, I'm not surprised that you haven't seen these imported persimmons in the local supermarket yet; the ones I found were from a large specialty fruit and vegetable store near NYC that often carries some unusual items. Hopefully for the sake of the fruit connoisseur these will be more generally available soon, as they take the overall quality and desirability of kakis to a whole new level IMO and I would expect them to compete favorably against the current domestically grown and commonly imported choices.

Creekweb, who was the source?

Have you eaten large, deep orange Fuyus from CA or Sharon fruit (Fuyus also) from Israel. I don't see how you could improve on these as far as brix- more sugar just wouldn't help. The texture can be crunchy or soft depending on your taste and patience. I like them crunchy.

I'm guessing that Fuyus are making major headway in the American market- saw them at a chain today that used to only carry Saijo (or whatever astringent).

Found those at Corrados in Paterson during late persimmon season.

The Fuyus and the PVA Sharon fruit that you speak of can be excellent fruits and I'm sure they have their fans but they have some problems that IMO prevent them from being more widely accepted. I've sampled them from many different sources and the quality differs widely - many factors play a part here but at least some of this variability is likely due to the degree of ripeness at harvest and when consumed. Those just beginning to ripen are firm and crispy but not always very sweet and can be dry and lacking much flavor or fragrance. Some are better, but the fruit is not reliably high quality in my experience. Alternatively, they can be ripened further to a softer consistency when they seem sweeter and more flavorful. But I've found that ripening these persimmons can be a long process, probably long enough to test the patience of a typical consumer.

The Mediterranean persimmons mentioned earlier, probably PVA, are firm ripe and have a consistency somewhat similar to papaya but more firm and without the mealiness. There is none of the goopy slimy gelatinous pulp typical of many ripe PCA persimmons like the Hachiya. They are sweet but not cloying and have a distinctive spicy flavor, a quality I've found lacking in most commercially available persimmons. All this in an eye catching red fruit the size of a large apple and without seeds. But like all persimmons, not much acid to balance all that sugar and not what I'd call a juicy fruit. Still, I'd have a hard time understanding why this one, based on fruit quality, couldn't become a top tier fruit here.

My guess is that the difference lies in the variety not in the area grown.

I believe the Sharon fruit are consistently harvested at peak ripeness- US growers do not police the quality of their fruit well, to the overall detriment of their industry. The first CA fuyus of the season tend to be under ripe. The quantity of potential new fans of this fruit that are lost because of this practice is bound to be significant.

I have not found that Fuyus get sweeter as they soften- they either got it or they don't. Fortunately, I even like mediocre Fuyus. I won't pay a dollar a piece so that's sometimes what I get.

I like Fuyus as well as "goopy slimy gelatinous pulp typical of many ripe PCA persimmons like the Hachiya". Don't see this as a negative, at all. To each its own. I, for example, hate papaya, but it does not mean it is not a great fruit. So let's try not to judge based on personal preferences.
Persimmons are enjoyed all over the world. By some reason they are less popular here. Ironically it is the easiest fruit to grow organically (down from zone 6b).
I believe it will grow more poular here to. Just needs time.
Olga

"So let's try not to judge based on personal preferences."

Then how do you give your opinion based on the taste/quality/texture of fruit?

You got me :)
Olga

I like the Hachiya slimy type as well. It's the okra of the fruit world (OK, okra's a fruit as well) which I also like a lot. I just happen to like Fuyus more.

slimy--yuck!

However that Ky nursery is now selling the Rojo Brillante, supposedly the most popular variety in Spain, supposedly just off the quarantine list. Maybe its the mediterranean type Creekweb raves about? I seem to remember an email from the Ky nursery saying its their best one. I planted mine 2 weeks ago, if lucky I'll get some of those good European kaki's.

I like Hachiya as well, though I don't think it the best of the PCA types. Having grown these for some time and having distributed them to a number of people and gauged their acceptability, my sense is that the consistency of this variety will always be a limiting factor in its popularity here, and while there surely are some loyal fans, I don't see persimmons emerging from among the minor fruits while Hachiya is the main commercially available PCA variety.

I don't mean to suggest that the Mediterranean persimmon is reminiscent of papaya. I just used this fruit as the best reference point I could think of to help describe this persimmon's texture.

Hmmm, maybe I'll try growing Rojo Brilliant in a container. When does it ripen relative to other varieties?

Good question, I don't know. Googling around, I found a patent app for the "Nuevo rojo brilliante" a selection of a rojo brilliante. In ca ripens about the same time as fuyu, 10-20days after hichaya

In Germany Rojo Brillante ripens like most of the Asian persimmons in November and according to this Italian page it's a midseason variety.
Rojo Brillante is definetely a very vigorous grower. I have to prune it every year.

Here is a link that might be useful: time of ripeness

Wow! you're the first person I've met to have grown it. How is it? As good or better than Hichaya?

I'm sorry but I haven't a Hachiya to compare. Hachiya is a variety widely distributed in the US but not available in Europe. Most of my only nine varieties are of the "Mediterranean" type like Rojo Brillante, Muscat or Tipo.
The fruit of Rojo Brillante are really large and good if they are very soft. The store bought fruits are all treated with CO2 to remove the astringency, so you can eat it firm.

GF, I didn't know CO2 could remove astringency from firm fruit. I thought it only hastened ripeness. If there's a process to do it someone should use it on Hachiya.

I'd heard that the Israelis use a special process on their exported "Sharon" persimmons.

Are you sure that all that's involved is placing them them in CO2 atmosphere?

Yes, I'm sure the CO2 atmosphere is all what's needed to remove astringency. The duration of this procedure depends on the temperature and the treated variety.
That's the way the Israelis treat their Triumph persimmons (sold under the name "Sharon").
It's possible to remove astringency with prolonged cold storage - at least a week in the fridge.
I'm not sure if all of the store bought PCA/PVA varieties were CO2 treated but as "time is money" I assume so.

Here is a link that might be useful: Astringency removal

I would expect this to be a very inexpensive treatment process.

I don't think you can remove astringency from a Hichaya persimmon simply by refrigerating it or they would lack astringency when you buy them out of refrigeration from stores, right? These fruit often don't sell quickly and must spend a good deal of time in refrigeration. They are also sold for a long period after harvest.

I see that the Sharon fruit have arrived now in grocery stores; I tried some and found the quality to be quite good, definitely better IMO than the average Fuyu available commercially or from my trees. It's interesting to note that although these fruits are imported (mostly from Israel i believe)the variety originated in the US where there had been some plantings in Florida as early as the late 19th century. The original tree had been a rootstock (most likely a seedling kaki) for an imported Japanese variety whose graft had died, and the rootstock had been allowed to fruit.

I actually prefer a really good CA Fuyu to the Israeli jobs. The Sharon fruit are almost sweet to a fault and I like the texture of the former. They are both great fruit to my palate, though.

I am so lucky to have an Asian market nearby that sells both at a very low price. They never run me for more than 2 for a buck there.