The key is to identify the pests and treat those with the least toxic method possible. Neem is a broad spectrum pesticide that should be used as a last resort, nit the first thing you reach for. Which pests do you need to control?

I have a friend in Fresno who uses neem, and Fresno's hotter than Sac. But like kim said... it's a broad spectrum pesticide, I'd only use that as a last resort.

well...my tomatoes and roses are covered in red aphids..they also have this black hard bodied aphid?

i've rinsed and rinsed these plants...the very next day, aphids.

i've tried controlling the ant population with a borax and sugar mixture (a little water to moisten) and the teeny sugar ants love it...but the larger ants have no interest whatsoever. i have a feeling it's the larger ants that are running aphids up my plants! well, the borax/sugar mixture hasn't made a dent in the ants. (i've been trying for three weeks now.) maybe i'm doing something wrong?

also, last year, i lost most of my garden to spider mites. i'd sort of like to nip that problem in the bud if i can.

i really don't like spraying anything at all...this is probably why i lose plants when gardening. i usually try to companion plant and leave it at that. i've never had an aphid issue like i do this year because i plant a ton of sunflowers and the ants seem to like running the aphids on them instead of my other plants. this year i didn't plant my sunflowers soon enough.

any advice you have would be so appreciated.

thank you,
andrea

Insecticidal soaps are probably the least toxic one. After that, there are the pyrethrins or the Bts. Neem should be third or even fouth on the list.

Neem comes from India - I don't think many places in the USA get hotter than India, so I doubt heat will be bad for using Neem.

Neem, according to the bottle I have, shouldn't be applied in direct sun with temps over 90F. The risk, as I understand it, is burning the plants. This is true of any oil based product.

Check the label on your product for instructions.

oops..i forgot to say that i have tried insecticidal soaps...and they didn't do a thing? maybe it was the brand i purchased?

do you have any recommendations?

also, as i understand it, pyrethrins kill beneficials and neem does not. i don't want to kill my beneficials right now...i have the cutest little baby praying mantis' all over my garden right now that i just adore!

maybe i'm sounding silly. i do like my bugs though.

Neem is a broad spectrum pesticide that should be used as a last resort, nit the first thing you reach for

What are you basing this statement on? Is there some new research I haven't read?

To my understanding Neem may have a contact kill due to it's being a lightweight oil, but this makes it roughly on par with insecticidal soaps and it's toxicity only applies to what is sprayed with it.

The other part of it's action occurs only when the Azadirachtin in it is ingested by an insect making it toxic only to things which eat the sprayed plant. Other insects can walk over the plant with impunity.

How does your understanding differ?

Justaguy....your understanding of how neem works it is right on the money. Kimmsr's is off. Neem is actually used ON honey bees to control mites! ;-)

If you spray it on a mess of Japanese Beetles on your roses, you are not likely to see much disturbance of the beetles. However, you WILL notice that they no longer make your roses disappear, lol!

I would recommend spraying early in the morning and experimenting with a few leaves of each plant to see how it reacts before spraying a whole plant.

Hmmm, a very targeted pesticide that only kills the bad guys and will not harm the good guys, wow. How does it tell the difference. I have seen the claims, from people selling the products, but I have not seen any valid research that supports those claims.

andreajp, if you knocking the aphids off the plant, not just rinsing but actually hitting them with a sharp enough spray to remove you will see, for a while, the next generation of aphids that will need to be knocked off with a sharp spray of water. Aphids bear live young almost as soon as they pass from the nymph stage, so by the time you see you have aphids you can easily have 5 or more generations on your plants ready to fill any vacancies. Keep at it and eventually you will catch up. There is no reason to kill the ants. Ants are part of Ma Natures recycling machine and for the most part are beneficial, contrary to what we all have been taught all our lives.

Hmmm, a very targeted pesticide that only kills the bad guys and will not harm the good guys, wow. How does it tell the difference.

Azadirachtin (the toxic part of neem oil) has to be ingested to work as an antifeedant or growth cycle regulator on insects. Thus, a sprayed plant is non toxic to anything that doesn't eat the plant.

Bad bugs eat plants, good bugs do not. That's how it 'tells' the difference.

The stuff has a written history going back thousands of years and it is used in organic/health type stores in products like face creams and toothpastes.

As far as I am concerned it is one of my first choices in protecting plants against insects. I would use it way before pyrethrins which are broad spectrum, albeit the toxicity is short lived.

If you have evidence that neem is a broad spectrum pesticide please provide it.

A good organic gardener always works with the precautionary principle, does this product really work as "they" say it does, and do I really need to use it. So starting from that place I need not supply evidence of anything, you need to supply good, conclusive evidence that your position is supported by strong non refutable fact.
There is some evidence that the Bacillus thurigiensis spores sprayed when blossoms are attractive to bees will be picked up and ingested by bees and, if not outright kill them, will cause eventual death.
Using toxic materials in an organic garden, first, should be unacceptable. The environmentally responsible method of insect pest control should be to start with the least toxic method, applied properly. No matter what the apparent acceptability of any poison, even BTK, soap and water, the onion/hot pepper/garlic mixture all should be given very carefull thought about using before they are.

Kimmsr, Neem has been evaluated extensively and is approved for organic use.

If you wish to believe contrary to the evidence that's your choice, but it is quite curious that you believe the burden of proof is on those agreeing with the thousands of years of history regarding neem use, the university studies and the conclusions of the National Organic Standards Board.

I certainly agree that no pesticide should ever be used without careful consideration of whether it is actually necessary and all safety precautions followed, but that's not the same as claiming neem is a broad spectrum insecticide.

It isn't.

Please either take the time to educate yourself on it or simply refrain from repeating inaccurate claims on the basis of no evidence.

As Rhizo pointed out, neem is being used ON honey bees to control mites. Thanks for that info, BTW, Rhizo. I googled on it and found it interesting. Hadn't heard of that before.

Kimmsr,

Though you might find the blurb at beyondpesticides.org interesting. They list neem on their 'least toxic' list.

i just want to add that i'm not a big fan of pyrethrins...

they sprayed my entire city with them to kill mosquitos because of west nile. next thing we knew..our entire magpie population was gone! why? well...that darned BROAD SPECTRUM insecticide killed off the magpie's food (and every other insect in town,) thus killing the magpie. two years later and i still only see one or two magpies...they used to cover our lawns.

i can also tell you that our ecosystem has never been the same. i'm seeing bugs thrive that i've NEVER seen in the 20 years of living in this area. the daring jumping spider being one...the imbalance is unreal.

pyrethrins ARE more dangerous than neem. i've been told this by the people at my nursery. they do kill everything in your yard...beneficials and "bad bugs" alike.

i thought it was pretty common knowledge that neem was nontoxic to beneficials. it's been said on many gardening shows..."the vegetable gardener's bible" advocates organic gardening and speaks of neem constantly because of the fact that it keeps your beneficials intact.

neem is also used on people to rid headlice...scabies..eczema..all kinds of stuff. google it.

lots of strong opinions and arguing on this forum. it's too bad. you'd think organic gardeners would be a peaceful lot.

thanks for all of the help.

take care,
a

I am well aware that Neem is often thought of as a least toxic product, but there is a lot of misinformation out there about it. At best Neem is "almost non toxic" to mammals, and yes I know it has been used in toohpaste and many other personal use products in its native India. Since Neem generally must be ingested to be toxic its affect against spiders, honey bees, other beneficials is minimal, but none of that says it is not toxic to them. The researchers know that too often repeated use of this, and any other pesticide, can lead to the target species developing immunities to them and every knowledgeable researcher out there will tell you "Neem should be used only as a last resort, not the first thing you reach for" because it is a broad spectrum pesticide.
Overuse of any pesticde will allow the target species to develop immunities and therefore its use should be limited, a basic premise of organic gardening.

"Neem should be used only as a last resort, not the first thing you reach for" because it is a broad spectrum pesticide.

I would agree with the entirety of your post if you hadn't added the 'broad spectrum pesticide' part.

Sevin and Pyrethrins are broad spectrum. Neem is not broad spectrum. Sevin and pyrethrins will kill bees on contact, neem is used on bees to control mites.

Yes, one should be conservative with any pesticide, but when the decision to use a pesticide has been made neem is among the least toxic options and it is not broad spectrum.

Seems like neem should work wonders. I used a brand name insecticidal soap laced with neem on the wife's outdoor hanging fuscia and they left after a couple of applications. They left for my summer squash and it was incredible how they multiplied. I dosed them daily for weeks and they just kept coming back. This year I'll try using straight unrefined neem oil with a little dish detergent to allow mixing with water. That's if the white flies come back. They love the newer leaves of summer squash.

andreajp, I have.
It has been very hot here in NE AR and humid too, earlier than normal (as it was last year). I have had 'bugs' and fungus problems on groundcover(GC) roses, simplicity hedge (SH) roses, an azalea(AZ) and the garden tomatoes, peppers and cucumbers.
I used neem oil extract(70%) at rate of 1oz per gal at 11AM on the SH and GC & AZ too. It was much later than I had planned since sun was already on the plants for hours but felt I had no choice. No adverse effects from that -none I could see were burns. I really soaked the plants too.
The BS was *gone* in a couple of days. I repeated the application a week later but much earlier in AM since the BS returned and have done it again. Unfortunately, I will be doing it every week and after every rain ...
IOW, the plants don't seem to be sensitive.
The garden tomatoes had (red) aphids and ithink whitefiles as well as some kind of fungus.
The garden got sprayed in the (very) late afternoon. No direct sun on them but it was bloody hot. Plants actually looked like they perked-up a bit the next day and I could not see any red bugs! I have not seen any 'bad' bugs on the plants since then so no more spraying. ...but I will if I need to do it.

I would say to not worry a lot about the heat but apply when there is not direct sun on the plants and use *only* the specified concentration as described by the label. Also, check the label to make sure your plants are listed as acceptable.

One other thing: Growing plants in CA is diff' than here(I lived in San Diego for long time...) so if you feel a little worried, test on one plant without spraying the others. IIWM I'd pick the most infested for the test. Check the next day and if all is well, spray the others. Be sure to use a sprayer that will allow you to soak the plant and get *under* the leaves where the bugs are.

HTHelps

jbann23 wrote "I dosed them daily for weeks and they just kept coming back."

Use light-reflective mulch under the plants.
It deters whiteflies (& aphids too). BTW, by detering them it will also reduce the incidence of virus they transmit...
E.g., couple of strips of HD Aluminum foil so it covers ~ 3x3', more or less. Garden centers nearby may have reflective mulch that is sturdier than Al foil; I.e., al-poly. ( Not here but maybe where you are... )

A company here has parts delivered in boxes that are lined with aluminized poly film(~3x3'). They toss the boxes so I ripped it out and placed it under the plants(tomato, cuc' & peppers, in my case). Looks like it works...

BTW, using straight neem will most likely kill the plants -burn them up... so don't do that.