I compost everything I can get. I bring in bags of leaves in the fall, spent plants, kitchen waste and anything else that can be composted.

You can plant cover and green manure crops. There are rock powders, organic fertilizers and soil amendments. You can use things like pelleted chicken manure which is easy to use.

If you Google "organic soil amendments" you'll get a lot of information. Be sure to look at the sources of the information so that you know it's coming from a credible source.

Keep in mind that your soil did not become depleted overnight and it will not be "fixed" overnight, it will take time, but building up the level of organic matter in your soil will, eventually, increase the fertility. It is really simple to say add compost, but you need "stuff" to make that compost from. While my quick trips through Iowa did allow me to see some trees there were not nearly as many as are around my house, but the leaves from any trees around you are one good source of organic matter. Cover crops would be another source of organic matter. Any vegetative material you can find and use will, over time, add to your soils fertility whether as compost or just as mulch. You want to aim for between 5 and 8 percent humus in your soil and that takes a lot of organic matter.

Hi Chris -

I suspect you are confusing a "closed system" with sustainability. While a closed system is certainly the ultimate in sustainability, it is entirely possible to remain organic and sustainable with just a few inputs. This whole idea has always been a hot topic at organic conferences for years.

I am an inspector for organic certification and neither a closed system nor a 400Â barrier has ever been required for certification. The usual distance for a barrier strip is 30Â, although the certifier might insist that you maintain a hedge, trees, a solid fence, or even weeds in the strip.

As Robin and Kimmsr suggested, cover crops and green manure crops are an excellent idea and I'd start this weekend by planting annual rye. Plow them down in late October, then plant hairy vetch and leave for the winter. I do this annually just a hundred miles north of you and it works well.

An old pamphlet from Ecology Action titled "Growing and Gathering Your Own Fertilizer" address the closed system question precisely. I suspect that Ecology Action may well be the only organization that has truly perfected a sustainable close system. Check out their other publications.

Here is a link that might be useful: Bountiful Gardens

Cereal (Elbon) rye. Supposedly, they grow enormous about of roots in the ground. May be a good way to restore organic matter. You probably still need to provide nitrogen one way or another.

Alfalfa can grow very very deep roots when let grown for 2 years, as deep as 20 feet.

You can simply spray 2oz of molasses per gallon of water per 1000 sqft to boost microbial growth in the soil. It is dirt cheap when bought from co-op farm, i think a dollar for a gallon of molasses (make sure it is unsulfured type. Blackstrap molasses would be nice).

g'day chris,

organic is sustainability.

all nutrients for our gardens come from us feeding the soil by daily adding our kitchen scraps and encouraging vast amounts of worms who provide castings and wee into the soil. we then mulch with green type hay mulches and as they break down they add whatever nutrients & elements are contained.

then as each crop finished the leftovers get recycled back into the bed where they grew, in readyness for the next season plantings.

oh i use me wee water as well as grey water from the laundry and kitchen.

too easy

len

Here is a link that might be useful: len's garden page

I am really glad I posted this question, because I now realized I got it seriously wrong all those years ago.

When I bought this abandoned homestead I knew nothing about plants or agriculture but I knew I wanted to grow things. Grow things as a hobby but also for an income.

Organic growing seemed like a good way to go, so I did research.

What crops to grow, what to sell. how to do it all.

Thank you all who responded, especially loodean. I got it wrong right from the start. I wrongly assumed that to be certified organic you had to have total isolation from "non-organic" input.

In retrospect I think I equated the distance required between field corn and ornimental colored corn to avoid cross pollenation (i.e. me growing colored corn trashing the surrounding commercial crop)

Looking on the bright side, this year I planted nothing, grew nothing and have not sprayed anything with anything for three years (it is now a jungle out there!)

Because I mis-interpreted the buffer zone it indeed looks like I can truly grow organically and one day be certified.

Thank you all.....

No one specifically mentioned legumes. (Is hairy vetch a legume?)

Legumes will fix nitrogen durectly from the atmosphere, into your soil. The atmosphere is 70% nitrogen - but it needs to be converted from N2 to nitates (I think) to be available for the plants. Legumes will do this. (Actually the bacteria that live on the legumes do it.)

Plant a cover crop of legumes, plow them into the ground, and you'll be directly adding nitrogen that had been in the atmosphere, into your soil.

In fact, I think our future will hinge on learning how to achieve sustainability for food production in "closed systems" on relatively small areas. Like 5 acres or less.

Not to tiresomely bang away at the same old tune, but it certainly can't happen if we keep throwing away our biological waste. If one was living on a small piece and getting most of one's food from it and not getting biomass inputs from some other piece, then a large part of the nutrients one is taking off the land via the plants is coming right back out of one's body and can be quickly recycled into the growth system. I read of some studies done in scandinavia that indicate that the nitrogen contained in a year's worth of urine can stimulate the growth of a year's worth of grain for that person. In areas of moderate to high rainfall, the minerals being removed from the soil are relaced by natural weathering of rock, or IOW, if we don't remove more than that amount then no mineral inputs should be needed. That slow process could be greatly speeded by grinding rocks if we felt like it.

If we are simply talking about providing people with vegetable foods rather than exploiting growth to produce cash then an acre per person would be plenty and quite sustainable without outside inputs. This should be obvious when we watch forests grow: large amounts of biomass acrue, more than rots away, without artificial inputs.

The truth is no system is that completely "closed". Especially on small plots of land.

I agree that planting on a plot of land, selling the produce, trashing the spent plants and importing nothing to replace the materials taken out will leave land quite baron and it takes the earth a long time to replenish that situation.
However, using chemical fertilizers/pesticides/herbicides in the manner that much comercial agriculture does with little/no thought to soil health or organic matter will leave the land possibly even more baron even with the heavy applications of fertilizers.
Organic and sustainable gardening are both very dependent on healthy soil and lots of organic matter in the soil. You can be quite organic and still import many things to use as soil amendments and fertilizers. If you are selling the produce, you can't really insist on it being a closed system and a small part of that income will need to help replace some of the nutrients you sold.
Some people see permaculture as being closed system. Perhaps this is possible on very large plots of land with very dedicated people and enough good investments to pay the taxes. Problem is, there are so many things involved that it rarely is a truely closed system. If you leave the property and use a restroom elsewhere, you have just exported material. If you buy any food elsewhere, you have just imported material. Just getting the system set up usually entails importing much to build/grow and breed what is needed. There are so many exceptions that it seems almost silly to me to insist on completely closed systems.

More of us try to be as sustainable as we can. Using things that are otherwise heading for the landfills, sewers, or septic systems to keep from depleting our soil. Avoiding using things that will hurt our soil and benaficial lifeforms. Trying to use things that require the least amount of industrial manufacturing resaonable. Trying to stick with what home made methods we can without causing more problems than solving them. And so on...

Good luck.

Since this thread is taking this turn, the closest thing to sustainable I've seen is the relatively new concept of holistic resource management. These people make their livestock production almost a religious experience. When they make a decision to use, or not use, anything on their land, they make that decision taking into account many factors. In the end they make the decision for the overall betterment of the "whole" system, including their need to profit from the enterprise. The profit motive and their understanding of the biology of their enterprise usually drives them to NOT buy anything that will kill anything naturally occurring. Thus they usually shun herbicide, insecticide, miticide, and all the other 'icides. The result is that Nature balances the system by bringing in critters to help.

Ask a cattle rancher when was the last time they saw a dung beetle? They'll tell you they used to see them when they were little kids. Now they don't see them because of the medicine fed to cattle to prevent worms. The HRM rancher will slaughter the wormy animals and end up with a "breed" of animals resistant to worms. When they stop using Ivermec, the dung beetles return in numbers that darken the early morning sky. The beetles completely bury animal dung in 24 hours leaving none on the surface for flies to breed in. The buried dung becomes food for the dung beetles and fertilizer for the next crop. The 3-10 foot deep holes dug by the beetles aerate the soil and become water enrichment tunnels for the pasture. Where a pasture might have once held water on the surface or allowed runoff, suddenly it captures all the rain in the deep tunnel system and allows it to spread deep into the soil. HRM ranchers have reported 15-inch rainfalls with no runoff. By the judicious use of electric fencing, HRM ranchers move their animals to simulate the great herds. Those historical free roaming herds did not wander aimlessly, they moved in a pattern governed by predators and food. The end result today is that many HRM ranchers have reclaimed inexpensive desert for pasture and most can increase their stocking density above their neighboring rancher's capacities. With fewer expenses and more cattle to sell, this sustainability thing really pays off.

I said this was close to sustainable. There is often a necessary input of calcium to recharge the soil for the calcium needed to build cattle bones. Some also add micronutrients found in seaweed in mineral boxes for their animals. The rest of the nutrients come from the sun and the recycling by the animals themselves.

You are going to have to realize that beyond the size of a 'family' veg garden the larger acreage the more labor will be required to locate, grow your own, haul-in or purchase etc. organic matter for it. We put about 20 tons last year on a 5,000sf garden. Well, guess what? Its all gone already. We will be chopping all the veg residue & adding back also adding some leaves this fall, composted manure from our animals & growing legumes & cover crops for mulch/compost etc. but thats a very small scale. Once you go up to a couple acres or more you will definately need some horsepower. Good Luck

> Well, guess what? Its all gone already.

kabuti,

It's not gone. It's still there, further decomposed, providing all the benefits it's supposed to.

rangier

After reading the last few posts I now know I understand nothing about "organic" production.

Years ago I got the "buffer zone" distance wrong and so I believed I could never produce certified organic produce.

I return to my first question, "Where do you get replacement nutrients from?"

Now to refine that question, to be certified organic does the fertilizer you use have to come from a certified organic source?

On this thread we have...

"I compost everything I can get. I bring in bags of leaves in the fall, spent plants, kitchen waste and anything else that can be composted"

"all nutrients for our gardens come from us feeding the soil by daily adding our kitchen scraps"

"pelleted chicken manure"

"Any vegetative material you can find and use will, over time, add to your soils fertility whether as compost or just as mulch"

"Ask a cattle rancher when was the last time they saw a dung beetle? They'll tell you they used to see them when they were little kids. Now they don't see them because of the medicine fed to cattle to prevent worms." That one needs thinking about... the wormicide in the dung kills the insects in the pasture.

There are more examples. The thread that just re-surfaced is a great example. "Egg Powder Fertilizer?"

To my way of thinking if it was produced from eggs from "organically" produced hens it is OK for "organic" crops. If it is made from intensivly farmed hens fed with antibiotics and GM feed the eggs and hence the fertilizer are not "organic"

Same thinking for manure from animals.

Also kitchen waste.

Does the replacement nutrients have to come from a certified organic source?

Chris, for myself, I don't know the answer to that question - nor do I care. For you, it is apparently a practical matter of what you may or may not be allowed to use by some oversight agency. So it's very simply answered by looking at that agency's promulgations.

For me, it's a philosophical question of the possibilities in living light on the land, doing the least harm, exerting the least effort on my part, and etc.

Of course there is no truly 'closed' system, but it is quite possible to get effectively close to it. If one just uses one's own waste and randomly collects stuff that people leave around, one can easily maintain a growth cycle that produces more than one person's produce. Just as Dchall's holistic cattle ranchers have figured out how much beef can be exported from a given amount of land without lowering the native fertility or mineral content. Obviously it has all to do with the system in question - 10'x10' isn't going to feed one person even in the richest and most productive climates in the world with all the inputs possible, and ten acres might not be enough in semi-desert regions.

Chris, I think you're on the right track; but if you're really interested in growing certified organic produce, I think it's time for you to contact your local government. They'll have more accurate information about organic fertilizers and also the kind of forms you'll need to fill out for your county to begin your organic certification. It's my understanding that you have to grow on for 3 years, with many site inspections before you can become certified. I would think this process would give you plenty of time to "iron out" the details.

Oh, and besides organically enriching the soil, don't forget about crop rotation. That was the key to many ancient civilizations growing successful harvest's.

I have looked into this myself. I sell tiny amounts of organic flower seed, not enough that I have to be certified organic, just documented in case anyone needs to know. It is okay to compost any sort of old produce that people would normally be eating. Doesn't need to be organic. It is accepted that the process of hot composting does away with the chemical residues. Ditto for animal manures, just know what drugs the animals are being given, most are okay after composting. Ivermec (sp?) breaks down quickly in compost, supposedly. The big local paper uses soy ink, so I am fine to compost that, too.

The only chemical I know of that stays around through a hot composting procuess is some type of herbicide that is commonly applied to lawns. So in my scavenging for compost materials, I take people's leaves but not grass clippings, unless I know the people and their practices. I also take pumpkins and hay bales and corn stalks being thrown out after Halloween/Thanksgiving. My other big source of compost material is leftover produce from a local stand at a weekend market. Because I get so much from them I haven't even tried to get that other popular standby, used coffee grounds from Starbucks, etc. Talk to your local grocery store, or a farmer at a farmer's market. Most people landfill their old produce, maybe you could compost it instead.

I have been told that the biggest pollutant in my soil is probably emissions from the local coal power plant. I don't worry about what goes into my compost pile, except for avoiding strangers' grass clippings.

Marcia

According to the latest soil tests of my soil I now have about 6 percent humus in my soil and optimal nutrient levels, although the lab did suggest adding 1/2 pound of Nitrogen per 1,000 square feet of garden. this is the result of adding compost and other forms of organic matter, shredded leaves, over the years. There has been no "fertilizer" added, no rock phosphate, no granite dust, no greensand, although animal manures have been part of the compost. Granted most of the material that made the compost came from offsite and all of the shredded leaves that are used for mulching come from offsite, but other than that no "fertilizer".
Concentrate on adding organic matter and the soil will get better and become a good, healthy soil that will grow strong, healthy plants.

The only chemical I know of that stays around through a hot composting procuess is some type of herbicide that is commonly applied to lawns. So in my scavenging for compost materials, I take people's leaves but not grass clippings, unless I know the people and their practices.

There are two chemical herbicides that persist through the cow and through the hot composting process. They are clopyralid (klo PEER uh lid) and picloram (PICK low ram). I believer picloram has been discontinue all together. Clopyralid has been banned from home owner purchase and from residential use by the lawn care industry because it kills trees pretty fast. It is still used in grass farming for livestock and you can find it easily at any farm and ranch store. Supposedly you are supposed to have a pest control applicator's license to purchase it, but I don't think they ask. In any case the compost industry would be dead by now if there was much clopyralid around.

Scary to think that such things are produced and sold, especially given how mindless the average purchaser is likely to be.

I think I heard of people having a problem with clopyralid in their compost from Hay somewhere. I remember they were trying to get it banned but that was a while back and I don't know what came of it.