I wouldn't eat a vegtable or feed one to someone I knew if it was sustained with water from a contained fish pond.

Lord knows what kind of chemicals/bacteria/fungus you would pick up.

I see no upside, and all downside for this experiment. Bad idea.

Groundbeef,
do you ever fertilize your yard/garden/flowers with fertilizer from the garden store, full of chemicals? Do you every use manure? Guess you don't
I see every upside to this, I use the water from my pond to water all my gardens, edible or not and have for years. Okay, I won't invite you to dinner.

Fair enough. But if you are going to ask a question, perhaps you should rephrase it.

I'm going to do XXX. If you don't agree, don't respond. That will keep the pesky problem of people disagreeing with you from replying.

I stand by my initial statement. There is a huge difference between using "miracle grow" on my veggies than crap filled pond water. I do use the sluge from my filter for my flower garden, but I would NEVER use that water on edible goods.

Don't you remember a couple of years ago the spinich scare? That was from organic waste getting on the spinich. Just because its "natural" doesn't mean it wont hurt you.

And BTW, ponds are NOT natural. I love my pond, but I'm not fooling myself that it is a natural environment.

And thanks' for the dis-invite. I'll be happily eating my non-contaminated food.

There are ways and there are ways. You wouldn't want to water the leaves or fruits of veggies with pond water but there is nothing wrong with watering the roots of plants that are in the ground. Microbes don't enter the plant roots and travel up the stems to contaminate leaves and fruit. Contamination is on the outside of the plant. A barrier of lots and lots of mulch to separate and cover a trench that carries the water and the above ground part of the plant would work to prevent the kind of contamination that occurred in the salad scare. That was uncontrolled runoff from a horse pasture that was splashed on the veggies as they were harvested. There was supposed to be a trench and a wide buffer between the pasture and the veggies but somehow that trench was missing and there was no adequate buffer. Water that is really dirty is bad, not so dirty water is not so bad, but it still requires filtering through the ground.
That is all dependant on plants in the ground. It is not suitable for a hydroponics setup. The water there is carefully laced with specific nutrients and cleanliness is absolutely near to godliness. That is why most hydroponic veggies are grown in greenhouses. They are easier to keep clean. Just allow one plant pathogen in a greenhouse and the whole crop is ruined due to the closeness of the plants and water sharing.
While I did, long ago, once or twice, see a photo of goldfish in a hydroponics tank I suspect they did not stay there. It was merely a way to show how safe the water was, not a representation of normal procedure.
The UV would certainly help kill off many pathogens but for safety's sake it would take more than what is required for algae control. A holding tank, properly aerated and getting lots of sun would be good but now we are getting into methods used by a city for tap water.
Concentrated nutrients are a no-no. They cause burns. One problem is you would not know what kind of nutrients are in the water once it enters the hydroponics setup. It would take a chemist to finally figure that out and the possiblility of chemical burn is pretty large.
The last point about saving money is not correct. It is more expensive to grow veggies hydroponicly. Sorry about that.
You might be better off running the excess to your ornamentals. Sandy

You may find some useful information at this link.

Here is a link that might be useful: Permaculture gardening

Hi
Just google "Aquaponics" tons of info on this method of growing all kinds of things. Some of the setups in Africa are mind boggling in how productive they are in such small areas. They work ,make up your own mind on how contaminated ,poisonous they are. lol gary

May be crazy but we did it.
The water goes through the filter first. See picture:

{{gwi:190460}}

Here is the picture! Sorry it did not upload before.
{{gwi:190462}}

Hi
Take it you are using this as a "bog " type filter. is this ornamental or food production??
I grow rice, cranberries ,water chestnuts ,water lettuce. My setup is more of a "marsh" rather than bog though since these are all water plants gary

Hey Gary,

This is for food primarily, second it's a quirky kind of ornamental. The lettuce will get really big (maybe) and we'll have it most of the summer.

The output line on the filter is split with part going back to the frog spitter and the other going to the lettuce bed. The rock helps to filter the water for the fish and the nitrates from the fish are fertilizing the plants.

That's not very scientific but I think that's how it works. You can see it's a really small set up off my patio but I love it!

Wendy (loudbaby)

I admire you for your persistence and willingness to experiment. I hope the filtration you have is sufficient. Do you do any testing for things that could be a problem or do you just take your chances? I know in my herb and vegetable gardens I take a lot of care to prevent any thing that could cause contamination that could cause my family to get sick.
I didn't read a great deal of the info that came up on search but I seem to remember there was a lot of safety built into the systems I remember seeing so long ago that combined fish raising and hydroponics. I don't see that in yours. Can you please reassure me? Sandy

Here is the general rule: if it eats plants (herbivore) its manure is great fertilizer. However: if it eats meat, then their are VERY serious risks of pathogens, worms, salmonella,and other diseases and contamination. Commercial hydroponics greenhouses use tilapia that have NEVER eaten meat of any kind, and have just eaten plant based food. further, the water is no where near the tnks, it is run it tubes for the roots to catch after being exensively filtered with uv sterilizers. Your fish, however, are not born into just plant based matter, commercial fish food and koi food is very high in various meats often. Also, without UV sterilizers and advanced filterization, there are a ton of other risks besides just that. Chemicals can leach into the pond, and often stay there and build up, while in the ground they can easily seep away. These are just a few things. Do yourself and your family a favor: dump those lettuces ect, grab a bag of miracle grow, and do it the ol fashioned way. Your results will be better too. Dont want to sound harsh, but this kind of stuff can be very serious

@Pondmaster-

I'm not sure I agree with your thoughts that herbavore manure is any safer than that of omnivore manure. After all, e-coli is a very dangerous bacteria. And it just so happnes that many times it is transmitted in meat that is tainted with cow manure.

And the spinich scare a couple of years ago was cause by runoff from a cow pasture getting on the greens.

I would steer away from manure altogether, meat eater or otherwise.

They have this setup at Disney World! I think everybody needs to do a little research. My friend (who is here now), is a biolgist w/State of Flordia and has a Masters from Old Miss. He reassured me....no more unsafe than spraying plants with worm poop or bat quano. Just have to wash the lettuce.

I am reading this forum in amazement that the thought of putting pond or bog water on the garden is somehow dangerous because of bacteria! Where did the idea come from that pond water would be more dangerous than the very soil you are planting in? Just because something has gone through a fish? Or a frog? Every animal and every human being is full of e coli. The person touching your food at a restaurant or grocery store is more dangerous to your food than water from a fish pond or any river not contaminated with heavy metals.

It is a good idea to wash your food if it is not pealed. I think they teach that in grade school or kindergarten. Washing takes away bacteria. A few bacteria will not cause human infection (GI type). It takes a quantity--a certain load. Washing takes care of that.

There are various parasites in fish and pond water. If you dip you food in pond water before eating it, you should wash it then. They won't show up in things grown in the garden unless you dump the water on the edible part of the vegetable or fruit. If you do that, wash it off. Plain and simple.

If you really read my posts you will see that I said that filtration through the soil makes it pretty safe however there are some really dangerous critters in the soil that can be very difficult to wash off without making the plant unusable for food. One of the most vulnerable is lettuce because of the uneven texture of the leaf. Those nasty little microbes can find hiding places that can't be reached. A lettuce leaf that has had mud splashed on it that was from a field planted downhill from an outhouse could be as dangerous as a grenade. The same goes for fields watered where runoff is contaminated by feces from cattle, horses, pigs, sheep and fish. Admittedly that food might look fantastic but it would be foolish to eat it even if it was washed well. The only safe way to eat it would be after it went through an autoclave. That is why there are so many rules that concern growing our food.
Most of us who garden use composted manure as a soil conditioner. Notice it is not just plain manure, it is composted manure. The heat generated to compost it kills off most of the microbes that would harm us and even then, we need to wash the veggies again just before they are served because mother nature is constantly adding little surprises to the soil such as bird poop, insects and animal droppings and the microbe colonies that erupt where the veggies have been exposed to unrefrigerated air or someones sneeze.
My DH came home today after his lunch at a local restaurant. He spent the rest of the day miserable from something in the food that gave him a mild case of food poisoning. What part of his lunch did it to him we may never know or how many others had the same problems. I will urge him to complain but he won't do anything about it. Someone may have handled the lettuce without washing his hands or the mayo may have been left out too long. The really bad thing about it is that someone who has a reduced resistance to such things could get very sick.
If I eat food that has shared water with a fish I want to know it has been in a compost pile and well cooked before I eat it. Sandy

I just thought of a site I have often mentioned in the past for those who are interested in what shares the pond water with our fish. While Ron does not discuss pathogens as such he shows many of the teeming organisms that we never see but are there all the same. Sandy

Here is a link that might be useful: Ron's pond scum

Good website. I know I for one don't want those things on my salad. And no, just washing something off with water surely dosen't remove everything. There is a reason lettuce doesnt grow like a marginal plant I guess. We cant mess with nature too much, especially when we are eating the results!

We'll do our research before following through with this. I don't want anyone to get sick! There are so many people doing it. I'm hoping it's safe. I read the ingredients of what we feed the fish and it's all vegetable based except for "fish meal" whatever that is. Thanks for everyone's opinion! Wendy (loudbaby)

Ok, I'm sure you know much more than me on this subject. Again I didnt want to sound harsh! The actual setup looks really nice!

One comment on manure from farm animals. Recent research suggests that kids that grow up around farm animals are much less likely to develop allergies than other kids. The theory is that the constant exposure to relatively harmless bacteria causes the immune system to focus on infective substances rather than on harmless materials such as molds and pollens, etc. I know of no studies that show that exposure to animals and manures (certainly plenty fresh on the farm) causes an increase in the infection rate of children (or adults). If you have worked on a farm, you know that you don't wear gloves all the time to protect yourself from the bacteria. It is to protect the hands from injuries.

Agreed that exposure to e coli and other organisms that one has not developed a resistance to or a tolerance of can produce significant disease in an individual whose immune system has not be "hyped" up by continuous exposure to bacteria and other organisms. It is also highly likely that that individual has allergy problems.

In the military (the same things happens when one travels), people coming for training from other countries tend to pick up significant GI problems from exposure to the local e coli and other bacteria. If you go to their country for long, you will probably experience the same thing.

Again, in general, to contact an infective agent, usually a certain "load" is required to cause infection unless a person is severely immunocompromised. An example is typhoid where a healthy individual will need to consume in excess of 4000 typhoid bacteria at one time to contact the disease.

Washing lettuce will reduce but not remove all bacteria. But it is not usually necessary (or possible) to remove all the bacteria (unless you cook it to 160 degrees for 20 minutes or boil it, etc).

Our bodies have over many thousands of years developed amazing ability to tolerate our environment.

It is reasonable to disagree on this. I'll have to admit I have eaten all kinds of things out in the garden (usually wiping off the obvious dirt first), and have not noticed and ill effect. But then my body has undoubtedly has developed a level of immunity to the organism in my garden.

A level of respect for the danger of eating possibly contaminate food materials is certainly warranted. For me, fish pond water would not concern if it had been applied early in the production of the crops. Just an opinion.

I recall checking into using the pond for hydroponics a few years ago. I thought the basin at the top of my waterfall would be perfect to grow tomaotes. I decided not to do it because of warnings that the tomatoes may injure the fish (Tomatoes are related to nightshade). Remember that there are plants out there that are toxic to fish and that shouldn't be planted in or near the pond.

I till manure into my garden annually. I water the garden with pond water in the summer. I swim (float)in my pond -- it's a great way to commune with the fishes. I'm sure I have swallowed a bit of it. My dogs drink from the pond daily. Nobody gets sick. I'm not too worried about pond water. I'm not going to have a glass of it with lunch however...

Wash your food before you eat it, especially things like lettuce and root crops. (green beans and cherry tomatoes must be exempt from this as they are just too good to wait ) sam

Both of my parents grew up on farms and they wouldn't let me get near a glass of milk that was produced on the farm and somehow I can't remember eating anything there that had not been cooked to death. I was grown before I was told the reason, which was that it might have made me sick since I seemed to get sick with almost any food that was not well cooked. The doctor had told them it was not a good idea but I still remember my grandmothers's expression of surprise and hurt when mother removed the glass of unpasteurized milk from my hands and replaced it with milk from a carton that they had brought from home. Sandy

I live near Milwaukee (who'd a thunk) and there is a Urban farm here called Growing Power that does a lot of "out there" things with compost, vermiculture, aquaculture, etc.

I have put a link to their website for those who want to check it out.

They seem to be raising both perch and tilapia in aquaponic gardens. The perch are fed an omnivorous diet.

Here is a link that might be useful: Growing Power Aquaponics

Wendy, fishmeal is a subject for a lot of study. It is composed of what remains of fish after the good parts have been cut away and sent to market. This would include fishheads, entrails, skin and bones. Then to bump up the protein, they add blood, which can come from just about any slaughterhouse. A few years ago I could not find the high quality fish food I usually buy in any store. I finally asked why and was told it had been pulled from the market due to the mad cow disease scare but that it was being reformulated and would soon be back on the shelves. Here I thought I was doing the best for my fishies.
I did a quick search of FDA+aquaponics. There where some interesting bits of information out there, but surprisingly little on growing veggies in combination with growing fish. There are some stringent rules.
In just about every system I saw, there was a total dependence on filtration of one sort or another.
I think the combination of fish farming in combination with veggies is pretty complicated and labor intensive. Sandy

Wendy and jpinard,
I don't think your idea is crazy, I had wanted to water my garden with pond water. Asked here about it, and was warned off to the point that I was paranoid about what I could catch from my pond. Told my kid to never touch pond water, ever!
I have changed.
Now the rule is you must wash hands with soap and water after. I water the ground around my plants with pond water but I don't splash and not the lettuce. We feed the frogs, enjoy the pond, feed the fish all manner of caught stuff from around the yard. I no longer think of my pond as toxic and disease breading cesspool. I do advocate common sense as stated before wash your hands and don't drink it. If you have a weak immune system then, again, use common sense.

what changed me?
for a start read these:
The Omnivore's Dilemma by Michael Pollan (Groundbeef - your cow "pasture" was a feedlot)
http://ecologycenter.org/terrain/spring-2009/of-mice-and-men/
Teaming with Microbes by Jeff Lowenfels

and this info also:

go here; the idea of flood and drain is key
http://www.backyardaquaponics.com/forum/
here is a link to the first magazine issue great pictures and explanation
http://www.byapmagazine.com/firstissue.html
and just for fun (4th page really interesting)
http://aqua.ucdavis.edu/dbweb/outreach/aqua/280FS.PDF

Well, I've had too much coffee today. Keep at it jpinard and read, read, read. Do tell me what you think of flood and drain, the aussies seem to have hit upon a great concept.
RexAnne

Speaking of cows, you'd be amazed what they feed them. We subscribe to the magazine "Mother earth News"...back in '99 I think,. they had an article on what is being fed to them. It's disgusting. They actually feed them powdered concrete to increase their weight at the market...as well as parts of other cows, (ground and powdered) and a load of other things you don;t want to hear about. No wonder Kobe beef is so dern expensive. As far as"haitidoc's" comment, I've heard the same thing. I grew up on a fram, and played with every animal Icould get my hands on, probably ate a lot of 'woodland plants" i shouldn't have, etc....and I have never been sick. Never. I do believe it helps build up your immune system, and peeps that keep themselves in a Lysol sprayed room are weakening their immune systems. I think some of it is probably genetic too, as Sandy was explaining her dilemna.
I would definitely use pond water to water my plants. Don't see a problem with it. I mean, how in the world did the human race get this far already if she hadn't done things like this in the past? lol, to each his own i guess. :)
Nicci

@ Nicci

Cow feed from 1999 to 2009 is not a relevant comparision. Meat by-products are not to be fed to US Cattle to help prevent Mad-Cow. Back in 1999 that wasn't the case.

Not sure about the concrete, although even if it were the case it wouldn't affect the meat. It probably isn't good for the cow though.

I wouldn't water my garden with pond water. I would use it in the flower garden though.

some fish medication is only viable for 3 days, some for 7 days, the medicine does not stay in the water for long periods of time, the application rate is not harmful, if you are all natural, as far as insect controls, herbicides, again the amounts are not dangerous, if you use pesticides, or herbicides in you gardens, then again the fish parasites controls are not any different than other pesticides, remember, fish meds are to treat live, breathing animals, if the products were dangerous then you would see issues with your fish, any any product used in other out of water, use the application rate that is on the directions, if you dont know how many gallons of water you have, then knowing is critical and a necessary, figuring gallons legenth x width, x average depth x 7.48 equal gallons like meds you take, after a day or two they are not viable and we have to take them daily until the infection is gone, so the argument of fish meds being a danger to food sources in a pond, is no concern, as far as chlorine or other products in the pond, the amount will not hurt your plants or it would would show issues on your water plants, think about it. the chlorine will of course dissipate. you can always put in de=clor if that is a concern, I use the water from my bio-filter to water my garden with, ala fish emulsion, plant growers use chemical, we know this, to control pests, weeds, diseases, then we eat the produce, and i have yet to grow an extra nose, no third eye, i have the right amount of toes and fingers, growing lettuce or tomatoes in a bog garden no big deal,