Spouse had a couple of black moors that were lethargic (Dropsy?). Someone suggested testing for ammonia. Ammonia was in the "stress" level. Got a much bigger pump and the fish seemed OK in a few days.

Yes Ive done all that - ammonia/nitrate was slightly elevated when this began, OK now. Will have to rethink my filtration system because I dont think it can keep up.

Moderator - can you remove this thread. I was upset when I wrote it and with all due respect more internet opinions & speculation is not going to be helpful at this point. I finally found a real fish specialist store in another city and called him - he was very helpful and answered my questions.

Anyway, my fish is still hanging in there but should the worst happen I wouldnt want to see this thread hanging there reminding me. I will want to write another more positive thread later on about what I've learned from this in hopes it will help someone else.

Hope you don't mind one more post- website "goldfish 911" is real interesting, it's all natural healing advice. I followed their advice,water changes, salt, pump in the hospital tank not an aerator,even made the natural medicated food which was weird having to shop for stuff I never use. My fish is back in the pond doing well. She had a fungal infection but there is info on dropsy as well. Good luck...

kashka_kat you fish will evolve wings and feathers and fly before you get the attention of a moderator. VBG, etc.

thnx, Ill check it out - part of my confusion has been that the very same things that are advised for this problem (maracyn 2) is also said by others to be harmful so dont use it.

As with humans the wholistic approach is the way to go Im sure...The thing is though I think prevention is 9/10 of the cure and where I should have been putting my attention. thx

LOL

(just picturing Big Red with wings and feathers)

Kashka Kat,

If I read your thread correctly this fish has had what you think is dropsy for at least two weeks. If this is correct it does not have dropsy. I would say that it has constipation and will be okay. Dropsy is the kidneys shutting down usually caused by an infection in the blood. The fish normally won't last more than a week at most.
Mike

Mike, his eyes were also somewhat bulging and pinecone effect was definite when I took him out of the pond a few days ago.... didnt know just how bad til I saw him close up. Would constipation cause that?

He seems to be pooping some .... and eating some, even this a.m. he ate a little bit of fish food ... not a lot but some. Mostly hiding in some fake sea weed I put in there for him. Poor guy, he still seems to have some will to live so I will hang in there with him... for now.

I'm just having regrets about this Maracyn 2..... apparently Kanamycin is the less harsh, risky antiobiotic med to use?

Also read that tannin toxicity could cause bloating/ kidney shut down. MY MAIN POND PROBLEM HAPPENS TO BE THAT THIS PINE TREE IS DROPPING TONS OF FINE, POWDERY BROWN ORGANIC MATERIAL INTO MY POND!!!! (Especially after it rains it just washes in - how to filter - but thats a topic for another thread)

If that's what it is, then removing him from the pond should help no? If its not an infection then I fear that my dosing him with Maracyn 2 may be doing more harm than good - apparently it can CAUSE kidney failure... or is that just internet hysteria?

Then again, I have plenty of evidence to support the theory that it could be bacterial.

I just dont know! That's what's been so very difficult - the not knowing.

kashka, some of the best answers I have gotten in recent months have come from Aquarium Forum.

One has to look around as to where to post the question. There are a a lot of salt water aquarium threads but some there are able to convince me they know their stuff. And there is a lot of traffic; 122 posts in the last 24 hours so there is a chance of attracting the attention of someone who knows the answer.

Kashka Kat,

Looking at the fish you can not tell the difference between a bacteria infection or constipation causing the pinecone and bulging eyes. Both are caused by the body of the fish being unable to get rid of the water in the fish. If it is a bacteria infection it is in the blood of the fish and will affect all the organs in the fish until it kills the fish. This normally happens fairly quickly after seeing the affects on the fish. I don't know about the tannins causing these effects. But they can cause bad water quality that can cause bacteria infections. It sounds like you have the fish by himself. He won't be happy being by himself. Even if it is just a small fish with him.
Mike

Mike - you are right, he is freaked out about being by himself for the first time in 12 years - would that account for his hiding under the seaweed and staying there all day - or is it his being sick from the illness and antibiotic? Or maybe both. The thing is, he was swimming around (clumsily becaue of the bloat) and hanging with his pals before I yanked him out of the pond kast Sat - felt very bad about that - I do know enough about fish to know they are very much herd animals, being prey - a lone fish is a dead fish.

I have thought about euthanasia and it may come to that but he is still coming out for food when Im not around - pooping some. Still bloated, but hard to say if its getting worse or better or staying the same.

This a.m. I decided I would just make him comfortable and let whatever will be, be. If it was a bacterial infection, it could be changing filtration and partial water change cleared up the infection but left him with a partial kidney shut down...?

Do you think he would be contagious at this point if I wre to bring 2 of the old fish back in? That would be the original 3 I got 12 years ago. Thought about buying a couple of small fish from pet store but does that risk bringing in other disease/parasites/what have you. My other fish including the 2 old ones I would bring in havent shown any symptoms yet from being in the pond with him - so maybe by scrupulously keeping the water quality good they'll be OK. So even if it was a risk perhaps not such a great one....?

THANK YOU ALL for your understanding - people here just laugh at me when I tell them about my 12 year old fish being sick. The forum you mentioned Albert looks good, people really in tune with their fish.

Kashka kat,

Years ago I have a fish show the same problem as your fish and I brought him. Like you I thought it was dropsy and I injected him with antibiotics. The antibiotics did nothing for the fish but in about a week and half the blockage cleared and the fish started to shrink back down. In any case this fish was by himself and when he was sick he would eat but once he started to get better he stopped eating. For about a week he wouldn't eat. So I put a small goldfish in with him and immediately he would come up and eat out of hand. This was about an eighteen inch fish. Anytime I would come close to his tank he would swim with half his body out of the water wanting to be fed. If I hadn't put that goldfish in with him he would have starved to death.

If it is a bacterial infection it is not contagious. Yes the bacterial count in the water will go up in the water and if a fish gets a scrape it could get a infection. I would get a cheap goldfish to put in with him. If the goldfish at the store are acting normal for about 15 minutes that you watch them it is pretty safe that they don't have any parasites. If fish in a small tank have parasites they are going to show signs of having them. They are all going to have a lot of them.
Mike

That's encouraging - so he had the pine coning and everything? Did you do anything to treat him for constipation - epsom salt? And in what dosage - it seems theres a wide range recommended on the internet. Is that stuff hard on a fish or gentle? The antibiotics seemed to bother him or thats how it seemed whenever I put it in the water.- I really dont want to put him thru much more stress.

Am going shopping tonight for spinach, peas and brine shrimp. Ive learned more about the goldfish diet in the past week than I ever knew - I guess that's the up side of all this.....

No I did not treat him for the constipation. Yes he had the pine coning and his body was about twice the size that it normally is. This was back in 1994 and there was no internet. I thought the fish had dropsy as that was what all the books said. That is when I figured out that it had to be constipation. Since than I have seen it many times. Almost always early spring. That makes sense because the fish just starts to eat after a long time of not eating.
Mike

Thanks Mike - Ive read your posts before and the fact that you have directly seen-experienced this has a lot of credibility. I was in fact feeding them - maybe too much, and wrong food - when water temp was between 48-55.

When you see bloating now do you just leave them in the pond?

ps - wondering what your method is now, leave them in? Hospitalize?

I just hope to learn something from all this....

Kashka Kat,

To answer your question it has been many year since I have put fish in a hospital tank to treat fish. In the case of bloating if it is dropsy there is nothing you can do for them and if it is something else they will usually be fine. If it is dropsy they will be dead in a week or less. If they are still alive than they normally will heal them self unless the pond is cold.
Mike

Dropsy= kidneys shut down - I suppose it is possible his are only partly shut down. He still looks the same, still hiding. I got a couple of feeder goldfish (now theres another sad story), he came out to take a look, and then freaked out &went back into hiding again.

I cant help but wonder if I were to get Fluffy out of the pond (female fish who was his pal for many years) if he would remember her. As time goes on its looking like either he's not contagious, or risk is minimal. Non of his former pond mates have had symptoms.

Dang. If only I could hit rewind and do this all over- I would do it way differently. I would ignore the pet store guy saying "all your fish are going to die if you dont get him out of there."

When I came home yesterday I found Big Red chasing the Little Reds around the tank! Couldnt tell if he was having fun - almost seemed to be playing hide and seek, hed chase them for awhile then go hide behind the filter and peek out and jump out at them again.

Or maybe he was annoyed at the little pests bothering him.

First time in over a week I had a good look at him - he seems slightly less bloated (???) but still some pineconing. I told him if he survives this I will retire him from the pond in style, put him and Fluffy in a proper indoor aquarium together.

"Playing" - well no, parasites can explain the racing around. Saw him flashing today, unmistakably....

Yep, could be the new fish but now in retrospect I think he and some of the others have been showing the symptoms for a while and I was just too ignorant to see. According to my reading the parasites can weaken & debilitate & allow infections to occur....

Sigh. Where do you even START with parasites. There are so many and the treatments all so different. Anyone have any experience with this parazoryne stuff?

This is so freakin difficult - it's hard to find out all the mistakes youve made.... after youve done them and you can see the consequences.

On the other hand, I find myself so much more appreciative of the tough, scrappy fish known as Ornamental Carp. Not sure I'm ready to throw in the towel just yet.....

Kashka Kat,

It sounds like the fish is feeling better. What is currently in the water? Most pond owners fall into two groups. The first treats way too soon because they see what they think is a problem. The second waits until fish start to die before doing something. Fish do flash once in awhile for no reason. Sometimes they will when fresh water is put in. The first thing that I would treat with is Proform-c. This will kill most parasites.
Mike

One side of him is almost flat now - the other side still sticking out a bit - he was like that when this first started, kind of lopsided.

Re whats in the water - well I guess I was in the first group of fish owner - total denial - nothing's wrong - then in freakout mode, lurching from treatment to treatment. Salted the pond (very lightly) then found out - no never do that with a bloated fish. Took him out put him in tank with Melafix, then did several water changes over a couple days = 75%, then 4 days of Maracyn 2. I've been done maybe 2 50% water changes over the course of several days, plus put in a fresh charcoal filter (pondmaster filter)

Oh. Then more Melafix when the Little Reds were added and now in the process of water changes to get rid of it. I wonder if that stuff is really all that great and might be what was irritating him. He was not flashing/racing as much last night. (BTW, I had sort of an ichy rash on both hands/wrists - I think maybe from putting my hands in the water w/ melafix?)

So.... there may be some residue of that stuff, but hopefully not much. Would the proform be OK to use in that circumstance.

Ive decided to take out the Little Reds - I think they just annoy and nip at him although they got him out of hiding - and bring in Spot, one of his original pals who has also shown symptoms of parasites at times. Then observe, then possibly treat them together.

Mike I gotta thank you for your interest and getting me thinking in a more coherent, less fatalistic way about this. You're the only one (of the many Ive talked to online and in person) who pointed out the social needs of the fish - and indeed what was looking to me like a fish at death's door (cringing, hiding) was him going into survival mode as a prey animal needing to be with others of his own kind. It helps me to know that no matter what happens I did right by him.

QUOTE: It helps me to know that no matter what happens I did right by him.

kashka kat, just a note to say I've been following your post since day 1. I truly wish I had some helpful advice but I don't. Glad to see Mike is helping you. God bless the experienced ponders here who are willing to impart their knowledge. I would have given up yearsss ago were it not for them.

Praying your baby's health continues to improve.

blessings,
~digger

Yes you can use Proform-c with what you have in the tank. But I am not sure that I would want to treat the fish. If they have parasites they will show symptoms all the time if you watch them for 15 or twenty minutes. If they just show symptoms once in awhile than it is probably not parasites.
Melafix is a product that I have seen do much of anything except bother fish. I think you would be better off leaving spot in the pond and keeping the little reds with him. If there are parasites you are going to have to treat the pond and fish. It is easier to treat everything at one time if need be.
Mike

Digger, thanks much for your support - my friends here are just not understanding "It's JUST a fish...." Well, uh, no it isn't. It's a pet whose been with me 12 yrs.

Mike, I kinda came to that same conclusion - just let everyone be for now - watch and observe - no moving anyone around and stressing them out all over again.

Just wanted to say Big Red is his normal fish shape once again - still some scales sticking out on the one side but nothing like it was.

What I thought was darting and racing was him still afraid of me (I think? From yanking him out of the pond and then dumping all the chemicals in on him-he REALLLLLY didnt like it) and the Little Reds picked up on it! If I sneak up on them and watch from around the corner they all are just grazing on whatever is on the bottom of the tank - normal fish behavior. in fact they are so funny to watch -they follow him around like he's the big daddy fish. Actually they are starting to calm down a bit, maybe associating me with good things (food) again I hope....

His fins seem a bit ratty looking, but I'll just watch and wait for now.

Many thanx!!!!!!

Good to hear Big Red is recovering well. I'm sure all the Little Reds are too! I long ago gave up hope my 'it's JUST a fish' friends would ever understand. Yet another reason I love this ponding community so much. Many here have helped me beyond measure. My oppurtunities to give back are few & far between. What I lack in knowledge I try to make up for in support, fwiw, and your post struck a familiar chord in me. Big Red is not 'just a fish'.

bless ya,
~digger

Update: Big Red is looking great these days! He seems like his old self again... Would move him & his new pals back to the pond except for the fact that I still havent gotten that pond right yet (water tests good, but its still pea soup.)

Just thought Id add...in case anyones interested... I did do some things that I think helped get him -and all the other fish- back on track. It all boils down to good nutrition and probiotics! (Ironically, the same thing that worked for me a few years back when I had some health issues of my own... taking a more holistic approach with the pond is the way to go for sure.)

Have been feeding a fresher, better quality fish food presoaked in pond water (instead of the dry, stale 3 year old junk I was throwing in for them ...when I remembered to feed them, that is...). Has enzymes for digestibility.

Plus a daily serving of vegetable (peas, melon, etc.)

Periodically.... some sinking pellets soaked in garlic water. Supposedly, this helps parasites & infections and all I can say is... after giving Big Red some of this stuff, within a couple of days the last of the protruding scales went down and his general health looked a lot better (fins erect, missing scales healed, etc.)

Have been adding "Beneficial bacteria" to both pond and tank water to help improve water quality ...had not been doing that.

In retrospect it must have been exactly what Mike thought, constipation with perhaps some sort of internal infection on top of that due to the poor water quality and/or having a totally backed-up digestive system.

Thanks again to all!!

Yaaaay! I have been reading about Big Red and am so glad he's doing ok now! I have a goldfish I've had for about 7 years and he isn't doing too well (hanging out on the bottom of the pond) so I've been trying to help him by reading about others' experience on here. Good to read a recovery story.

I fed my boy peas and garlic. Thought he might have swim bladder trouble. I have three goldfish and they LOVE the peas and garlic! For the first time in a long time they are coming up to see if I have any more of that stuff! Awesome.

Thanks for following through with your story, kashka kat!

Yes & amen! Just knew he'd pull through, glad to hear it. Thanks for the update.

"...taking a more holistic approach with the pond is the way to go for sure"

This is Wisdom, pure & simple.

blessings,
~digger

Kashka Kat,

I am glad to hear the fish is fine. I do think that 3 year old open food could be the problem unless it was a twinkie. Good thing you didn't put that in your first post or we might have had to get the koi police after you.(LOL)
Mike

What fun - I happened to come across Big Red's saga! This thread is truly the internet at its best - I was certainly getting nowhere trying to get info locally.

I'm happy to report that Big Red is still alive and well (though he had a close call last summer with gill flukes that itook a while to diagnose.) As near as I can figure, he is at least 15 or 16 years old. Here he is last summer - pretty handsome for a sarassa comet I must say!

This post was edited by kashka_kat on Thu, Feb 5, 15 at 18:45