If your friends method was so succesful why not emulate that. Raising the beds has consistantly produced superior resuslts in peach production, particularly with heavy soils. Mix the amendments in the top 6-8" of soil, spreading out several feet from the trunks. You have to improve the soil where the roots are going so the area must be great, say 40 square feet per tree.

Couple of points that I have learned. Dwarf root stock is a fibrous shallow root system. 'Standard' root stock is a deep growing tap root system. A container bound dwarf root stock tree will get killed off in zone 8 heat stress for sure. The advantage of bare root trees is that new roots will adapt to the given soil better. I think it is wise to amend container plants to promote outward root growth. This past spring I planted about 20 containers and 20 bareroot trees both in amended soil. I need to transplant several trees for row harmony. I will post photos showing root systems of bare root and container some time in March.

BR have their advantages but there is a huge industry of producing container trees, sometimes quite large, especially in the west and if they are managed properly perform quite well. A key problem is the coarser texture of potting medium allows surrounding soil to suck water from it making plants tremendously susceptible to drought until plants are well established.

I maintain about 400 potted bearing age fruit trees at any given time in my nursery and have installed and managed hundreds and hundreds of them succesfully.

On the subject of amending soil with compost- it is actually usually recommended for excessively heavy soils. Amendments have been generally rejected for establishing trees because most species get so large that it is extremely difficult to make a long term difference towards the benifit of their extensive rhizosphere.

Fruit trees are usually tiny compared to over-storey forest species so it is quite reasonable to expect to be able to improve their soil to advantage. Just don't do it by pouring a bunch of stuff in a planting hole. You are pursuing it in the correct manor from your discriptions.

Thanks for the replies folks. Harvestman, I didn't do the raised beds like my friend because of cost. For him cost almost doesn't matter. For me, I like to see what I can do with what I already have.

I'm glad you all agree with amending the soil somewhat. I just can't remember seeing anyone say it's OK. I can see not amending a small area, but my thought was if I amend more area than my roots can travel then the roots shouldn't suffer from the amendment. I also used mostly browns in the soil. There was some grass in there but not much. I used a small Honda 4stroke tiller and it ground the stuff up so you almost couldn't see it. I really like that little tiller. By growing time it should be rotted enough. Either way, it has to be better than what I had.

Time will tell. Thanks again.

I shouldn't have said raised beds I guess. What I do if drainage is a problem is start throwing shovelfuls of soil from about 10' from center (where the trunk will be) towards the center. By creating a shallow trench I make a sloping mound of 7 to 8' diameter for the tree. I then work my compost into the entire mound down 7 or 8" into the soil, mixing thoroughly. Then I have to pull the mounds back together

It costs a lot more in labor but the results are amazingly good. You maintain the mound with annual mulching. Roots get plenty of air from worms feeding on mulch (worm honeycomb!) Also from the loosening affect of the mounding which is a true biodynamic raised bed. The soil is supposed to be sliding downhill not held up by planks in the authentic method. Also by raising the soil higher above the water table etc etc

It's not recommended that you amend the soil if planting your trees hole by hole. The holes dug in heavy clay should be three or four times as WIDE as the container, but no deeper. The root ball should be slightly elevated in the hole.

When planting larger areas, such as beds or rows, the amending of the entire area is a great thing to do.

When planted properly, most plants can wonderfully in unamended clay soil, as long as the site drains.

Individual holes dug out of damp soils can be made into sumps by amending, for the same reason that amending of small planting holes on all soils may backfire: it gives the planting hole backfill a different texture than the unamended soil around the hole. The texture of a soil determines how water moves through it, amending planting hole backfill affects how water moves into the hole and out of it.

Amending entire beds, big enough to encompass the entire rooting area of the subjects being planted avoids this problem - only the edges of the bed will be affected by the unmodified soil beyond. However, there is still the problem of organic amendments decomposing and the amended soil returning to its original texture over time. With small plants that are replaced frequently, such as annual vegetables and flowers the organic content of the amended bed can be comparatively easily beefed up again as needed. In addition, such plants are adapted to recently disturbed soils with high humus and nutrient content, are able to make quick use of high levels of nutrients. Long-term plants such as trees and shrubs, on the other hand, produce large root systems that may eventually spread over a huge area (with normal-size trees not on dwarfing rootstocks, anyway) that are comparatively poor at utilizing high nutrient levels. And except on a commercial production field, these are left in place for long periods making re-amending impractical. You can supply organic material to permanent plantings with mulching, however this is unlikely to prevent an amended bed from settling and losing the high percentage of organic material it started with.

The most straightforward method is to match kinds of plants chosen with soil they are adapted to, mulch after planting in loosened, unamended soil. Piles of suitable soil can be brought in and dumped on top of soil that seems unpromising and used to get around it that way, this works pretty well. You can also dig out sections of a soil and refill the excavations with a different soil and get special plants to grow.

An important point to remember is that "building" soil is something that natural processes do over a long period of time. Mixing organic material into a soil and other such methods do not "build" a soil, it remains the same soil after treatment. If a soil seems inappropriate for particular plants a different soil needs to be provided for them.

This is critical and may require the installation of an effective drainage system where the water table is too high for plants intended to be grown. Some common crops can be pretty fussy, raspberries for instance are said to need the water table to be kept 3' below the surface.

(I have seen native raspberries growing in a stream in Idaho but it was clean-looking and moving along - probably well-aerated and not full of root-rotting water molds).

One thing I find frustrating about this forum is people just pop in and out and don't seem to follow the discussed topics thoroughly. Oh well.

Drainage systems are expensive to install but sometimes worthwhile. However, in every situation where I've encountered drainage problems in a potential home orchard installation my clients have opted for going with the raised mounds I described earlier.

All such installations (probably about 20 over the years) have thrived without a single exception. The only drawback is that the mounds must be maintained with an annual application of mulch to keep them well above the surrounding ground- not too bad.

Reading all of every post can be very time consuming, sometimes even become tedious and when you start adding up what everyone says in a thread of any length keeping track of and responding to all points raised may soon become quite a chore. Others clicking on a thread may still get something out of later comments even if those aren't limited or precisely related to what was stated or asked about previously. The original poster may also here about something pertinent to what they are attempting or pondering that they hadn't thought of or weren't aware of at all.

Interesting discussion. I have to sweet cherries that i have to plant this spring and am worried about drainage. I've heard they can be very picky when it comes to water (they are on Gisela 5). I might try building up the soil some to avoid drainage issues.

Harvestman-
I think part of the reason is this forum software! With the amount of popups you'd think they could upgrade to something a little more 2005! Sorry for the rant. I think instead of a "fruit/orchards" it should be broken down to more specific fruits...something like that. One reason why i head to a separate citrus/banana boards.

Yes: cherries may die if the water table reaches them, are comparatively bothersome to grow in general.

I followed the advice to use Mozilla Firefox browser and haven't seen the in-your-face pop-ups since.

I'm taking a big chance, i know. I'm putting them in soil that is mostly sand, maybe a little organic matter in it, but not much. Very heavy stuff. Probably throwing money away!

I'm going to do some digging and see if i can find some pictures of trees that are "raised" to get an idea of what i should do.

Franktank, sorry but we're snowed in so I can't take any pictures of sites I've used this method but it's not very complicated. You just throw the dirt from the sides towards center and create a flattened raised mound, like a plateau. When you're done (but before planting and mulching) the height should be a couple feet and the overeall circle a 6-8' diameter. This will be surrounded by a kind of moat from where you removed the soil.

Of course you don't have to plant native plants only. A key point is that amended soils are not different soils, they are still the same soil. After the amendments decompose and disappear they won't even be the same soil with amendments added. And if you use lots of amendments there can be a settling problem.

Frank T,

Just how bad is your drainage? The Gisela series rootstocks are shallow rooted and generally tolerate heavier soils better than the traditional Cherry rootstocks. The Gisela series are actually drought intolerant and is one reason among several I will not use them.

Make sure you stake the trees. Gisela 5 trees don't anchor very well.

There may be a bit of confusion about the word amendment. When talking about planting a tree, I use it to refer to adding something to the soil that fills the hole back in. I also use it to refer to tilling in as you did. Last but not least, it can be used of anything added at any time.
It is very beneficial to organic material as mulch to the surface. Adding organic material to the soil deeper than 4 inched is far less beneficial. And since it is a lot more work, it hardly seems worth it.
A generous mulch added to the surface will do more good than the same amount of material tilled in several inched deep.