Is it not possible to create Mycorrhiza by organic composting of your kitchen waste instead of buying it online? How could you tell if that powder is even an alive fungus anymore? It could just be dead stuff that won't come back to life. There is no way to tell if Mycorrhiza is really helping or not.

Tropical - I suppose there might be some theoretical exceptions, but generally speaking, you won't get mycos from your kitchen compost. It's possible to "grow" mycos--let's say by inoculating a cover crop--but unless you're doing it on a commercial scale, I can't imagine it's worth the effort. And, compared to a lot of stuff we put into our gardens and soils, they're dirt cheap :)

bil 1me, Right on. It ain't no fun coming up short during or at the end of the season and wondering what went wrong. Good on ya for the response.

tropical thought, If you're happy with your results, that's great. Also, it isn't possible to get mycorrhizae from compost.

Manufacturers innoculate host plants or seeds with mycorrhizal spores, grow the plants then harvest the mycorrhizae from the roots. The plants are then composted. This is a labor intensive process and is the only known way to reliably get them. If you want to buy them (which I do) ask your potential source for a spore count per pound of material. There are propagules (broken pieces of hyphae) and spores (think of them as eggs). Hyphae might reproduce but spores are almost 100% viable. I want spores.

My suggestion is to google mycorrhizae and learn as much as you can about them. Hit YouTube for some great videos. Hit my website thedoublevictorygarden.com and you will get some more info. Blessings to us all.

Mycorrhiza fungi actually refers to a relationship that some fungi and plants form and not to any certain fungi. The best way to have these fungi in your garden is to create an environment they can live and function in. These fungi form a mutually beneficial relationship, symbiotic, with the plants and different fungi work with different plants.

Here is a link that might be useful: The mycorrhizal fungi

Actually, it is mycorrhizae, the group that form symbiotic functions with plants. Hugely varied and specific relationships. It isn't simple, and it does not necessarily depend on anything a gardener can or can't do. "Creating" an environment they can live and function in could easily mean doing nothing. Like, don't keep mowing a pasture and preventing a wide range of plants and then many other organisms from functioning.

Kimmsr, Your link is a nice beginning. Google mycorrhizae and you will be overloaded with info. There are thousands of species. Some of these species are called Glomus and there are many of them. In 1996 a USDA microbiologist, Sara Wright, discovered a substance that the Glomus family leaks into the soil. She named it Glomaylin. It is a protein substance and is a soil glue that helps hold our soils together. More importantly, it is a precursor to HUMUS formation! This is HUGE and is another reason we want them in our soils in addition to them sending out tubes to forage for plant nutrients. Remember that 95% of plants on Spaceship Earth NATURALLY form a mycorrhizal relationship if they are able.

How do we kill 'em? Till 'em! They are not usually found in agricultural soils, tilled garden soils, construction soils, etc. because we chop them up pretty good and they are slow to come back. Chemical fertilizers can make them go dormant or get lazy and some create toxic conditions that kill them. The mycorrhizae say, "Why should we go out and look for plant food - this soil is overloaded already!" Fungicides also wipe them out.

Happily we can inoculate our soil and seeds with them and once established, they are there to stay unless we do the above. It has been stated that plants with mycorrhizae operate 7 times more efficiently with them than without them! Mycorrhizae research has been front burner stuff in the soil science community for at least the last 10 years and there are some outstanding mycorrhizal products on the market now. There are also some that suck.

As stated above, there are roughly 5% of plants that do not form a mycorrhizal relationship, in fact some plants are toxic to them. The entire brassica family kills them and there are others. This means that I plant my cabbage, broccoli, brussel sprouts, mustard greens, etc. in separate beds not inoculated with mycorrhizae.

As I have said before, google mycorrhizae, visit my website (thedoublevictorygarden.com) and hit Youtube for some excellent videos from the foremost experts in the US.

I will end this with a challange - get some mycorrhizae and do some side by side trials. I think you will be amazed. I was.

" The mycorrhizae say, "Why should we go out and look for plant food - this soil is overloaded already!" Fungicides also wipe them out. "

Having a natural balance of compost which bring and feed mycorrhizae, will create a buffer.

Like said above, soil tests were not invented untill 1950 (is that true???) so that says something.

What did we do when we did not have a soil test lab results???? How did we farm the same plot for years and years with or without crop rotation?? HOW???????? WOW!!?!?!?! hahaha ;)

Soil testing was known long before the 1950's, they just were not used very much by many people before then. Justus von liebig (1803-1873) is considered the father of soil testing, although amny people have grossly misinterpreted what he did discover.

MG - It's no great paradox. When the plow broke the plains, there were vast stores of nutrients in those soils - replenished by the glaciers and preserved by millennia worth of cover crops and manures (i.e. the tall grass prairies and buffalo). Early farmers were better husbands of the land - not necessarily by choice, but by circumstance. They raised livestock. Their livestock grazed on pasture grown on excellent soil. The farmer used these excellent manures to fertilize his crops. What was taken out of the soil was returned to it in some form - in other words, the cycle was sustained.

Nothing lasts forever. With the advent of chemical farming, agriculture shifted to an NPK diet - and not necessarily "good" NPK either. Not only were many nutrients omitted from the fertility regimen (secondary macros, micros and trace elements) the harsh fertilizers burnt out the humus and rendered the soil lifeless. The focus was on the yield--more produce, from less land. In less than a century, much farmland was "used up."

Now, fast-forward to the 21st century. The land most of us have inherited is no longer "virgin" - it no longer has that vast store of balanced nutrients. The manures and composts we use are the products of less-than-perfect soil. They play an important role in soil building but, by themselves, they can not contribute mineral elements which they themselves do not contain. That's where the soil test comes in. By telling us what we have (and what we don't) we are able to re-balance the mineral nutrients in the soil; we are able to re-start the cycle that was broken many years ago.

Very well put, 41.

I would add that the current state of general de-mineralization is not just the result of bad practice on a huge scale over the past century but also earlier (severe overgrazing in the east of north america, for instance), and also simply eons of rainfall since the ending of the glaciation in the areas that we now produce our food in.

organic popeye, About what percentage of mycorrhizae live over winter in different climates. I suspect that only some spores [not tubular growth] survive hard winters, so my question is...What harm is there in early spring and autumn tilling a bit?

You already pointed out that the brassica family kills mycorrhizae. They also help, kill off fungi and nematodes....kinda purifying the soil. This is useful too.

I suspect that there is a certain amount of recovery needed due to human effects on soils from non-agricultural practices as well, in regard to air and water-borne contaminants that resulted from the rapid industrialization and use of fossil fuels that began at the end of the first industrial revolution in the early 1800s and has only increased since. It is a tribute to the tenacity of nature that it has been able to survive and adapt, but surely acidification and heavy metal deposition have changed the mineral content of soils worldwide. even in so-called virgin soils.

We got a great thread going! First, a little history. When the first European settlers started clearing American land for farming, they found fertility beyond their wildest dreams! Their crops grew so well that most of them didn't worry about giving the soil anything back, though some wise ones did. The farmers that didn't were moving to new land in 10 to 20 years on average. They had farmed the land out - In fact a farmer's bragging point back then was how many farms he had farmed out. "Listen to what that farmer says - He has already gone through 8 farms. He is really experienced!" We know this because some of the farmer's journals and diaries said such.

Cut to the dust bowl years of the 1930's when soil blew all over the place, Grapes of Wrath, etc. The farmers then (like the colonial farmers before them) continued to burn the humus that had been laid down for millennia out of the soil, mostly by tillage. A Native American during the westward expansion was said to have watched a prairie farmer plowing a field up using a moldboard plow and was said to remark, "Wrong side up."

Here in Cochise, Az., the farmers are now tilling the pivot irrigated fields for spring planting. The high winds of spring are cranking up already - Last year and the year before I have seen them as high as 70 MPH and dust storms so violent that visibility was no more than a couple hundred feet. This happens every year and will happen again this year.

Humus and the Soil Food Web isn't important to modern agriculture - the soil is nothing more than a medium to hold the plant. We fertigate and spoon feed the crop NPK and perhaps a trace mineral or two if the crop requires it. GMO's are being grown everywhere. Most nitrogen fertilizers and rescue materials are petroleum based and getting more expensive each year. Not sustainable.

"Having a natural balance of compost which bring and feed mycorrhizae, will create a buffer."

MG, do you have a reference for that statement? I sure would like a source, 'cause unfortunately, it ain't true.

As stated before, plant roots leak sugar into the soil which attracts them and the mycorrhizae do their symbiotic thing. When the plants die and the root systems break down, the mycorrhizae have no food so they go dormant until next year's plants put out more sugar and the cycle repeats. Spores are TOUGH! They overwinter quite well and some of the fungal hyphae overwinter also and regrow.

Root feeding nematodes - A mycorrhizal root system is so dense with hyphae that the nematodes can't penetrate it! Pretty cool. Another benefit.

The brassicas form different microbial relationships than mycorrhizae and do very well in their specialized environment. I hadn't heard of them killing other fungi and nematodes though. Could you supply a reference? In general, 90% or so of soil microcritters as well as insects are good guys - eating and keeping the bad guys in check and destroying disease organisms as well. All without our help. We would do well not to disturb their activities.

"SEE what you are looking at." Dr Carey Reams, Phd., founder of the Reams system of agriculture.

" "Having a natural balance of compost which bring and feed mycorrhizae, will create a buffer."

MG, do you have a reference for that statement? I sure would like a source, 'cause unfortunately, it ain't true. "

Yea my reference is thousands of years of growing crops with no soil tests. ;) Sorry I had to. ;)

So what you are saying is that you need a soil test to grow food to feed yourself???? "do you have a reference for that statement? I sure would like a source, 'cause unfortunately, it ain't true."

sound familiar?

organic popeye,
I hadn't heard of them killing other fungi and nematodes though. Could you supply a reference?
Johnny's Seeds catalog was my source under green cover mustard.
Again popeye, I would like to nail down the destruction of mycorrhizae by tilling. It would seem to me that growing season tilling close to plant roots would be destructive. If mostly spores survive over winter in my area, what is the harm for a bit of spring and fall tilling for planting and incorporating reasons? I desire a quantitive reply rather than "it is just bad."
I read on an Acres site article where the author said that microwaving destroyed the water. Just to put out a scare tactic without justification and explaination bothered me. Any real pertinent info would be appreciated.

Wayne, I am in agreement with you that it is too easy to make statements without having back-up to refer to, and it can be argued that, if you look long enough on the internet, eventually you will find someone whose assertions can serve as support for your beliefs. Popeye's website has a lot of interesting material, and I have no reason to disbelieve his information, but, like you, I have found that my practices have so far indicated that I've been following the right path.

I'm still learning, and conversations like this only serve to make us all better informed, if not better gardeners. It's a great thread because of the discussion and information, but also because of the skepticism and disagreement, and for the civility that has endured despite it. It is a pleasure to have so many thoughtful voices taking part.

Great responses! Google "soil testing laboratories" and see what you come up with. Then call any one of them and ask them how they feel about soil testing! Notice that most of the universities have soil departments and laboratories. William A. Albrecht was head of the soils dept at the University of Missouri for over 40 years until the Ag chemical companies forced him into early retirement. You see, they supply grant money to the universities and land grant colleges and powerfully influence what gets taught...

Currently I use A & L Labs in Plains, Tx. I used A & L, Memphis when I was in Tn. 20 miles north of Memphis. (1986-2004) I had 8 and a half acres of god awful clay and the tests brought me up to speed pretty fast. I marketed some sweet corn and got rave reviews for the outstanding flavor. By the way, I am NOT a market grower. I am an experimenter, researcher, grower and word spreader with 41 years experience on acreage and backyard gardens - I am a "soils man". I worked for Jep Gates, a professional farm consultant for 5 years (1995-2000). Google gatesbioag - he is in Australia now and consults from one end of the continent to the other, has his own organic fertilizer plant and has now moved into New Zealand. He didn't do so well in Tennessee and Arkansas because his farmers were growing great cotton, livestock, etc. using his organic and biological inputs and the chemical fertilizer companies were badmouthing him. The farmers believed the chemical propaganda and Jep lost a lot of clients. The Aussies are more astute.

Acres, USA - "The Voice of Eco-Agiculture" I have read them since 1977 and from my chair, they are are the best we have. Virtually all of the scientists and practitioners of organic and sustainable agriculture have appeared in Acres over the years. Charles Walters Jr, the founder, (now deceased) was one of the stalwarts in this field. Google HIM. Acres USA conferences (put on annually) have drawn people and experts from around the world. He was great friends with William Albrecht and interviewed him numerous times. Dr. Albrecht gave Charles Walters his entire body of scientific papers that he had written over the years while at the U of Missouri. They are archived at Acres USA. A word of advice - don't badmouth this publication until you have read it for 5 years. The body of knowledge about agriculture as well as the dangers of toxic rescue chemistry, microwaves and fluoridation are all backed up by GOOD science and research, that defined as science and research that hasn't sold out to vested interests not interested in the truth, just their selfish monetary profits.

Wayne_5, go to soilsecrets.com and meet the foremost authority on humus and mycorrhizae, Michael Martin Melendrez who puts out the finest products in those fields. He is the industry leader and known worldwide. He lectures extensively at the university level as well as USDA and NRCS. His product line is second to none and I am going on my third year of using them in our desert soil in Cochise, Az., some of the worst growing soil in the U.S. The results have been astounding on two start-up gardens in two separate locations with different soil types. I describe this on my website, thedoublevictorygarden.com.

MG, You been growing plants for thousands of years? WOW, I am impressed! It is hard for me to believe that taking the Master Gardener course for a few months then doing some field work for I don't remember how many hours and Viola! You are a master gardener! I investigated that program when it came out and read the manual. A lot of good stuff that I already knew and a lot that wasn't so good, so I didn't take the course. When I got to Tucson in 2004 I spent a day at the county extension facilities where they hang out. They had a 3 bin composting set-up with no compost in it and I was told that it was just for teaching... What they were good at was advising callers about which killer stuff to use for the many problems that growers had because they weren't knowledgeable enough to grow a healthy plant that didn't get sick and wasn't infested with insects... I feel that I know a little about soils and growing after 41 years and I could become a master grower if I had 39 more lifetimes. (sorry, I had to.)

Gentlemen, I hope this provides the sources you were asking for. I am not a "people say, everyone knows, its common knowledge, etc." kind of person. I go to the experts and run trials in the field. Blessings to us all.

I am not a mastergardener it was just a name I choose. I am just saying man in general has farmed thousands of years without one single soil test. I do understand soil in some places is not the same and for the easy step to get a soil test it can be well worth it. Not everyone has perfect compost, it would cost too much.

This thread has been absolutely delightful. I have several biology degrees, taught for almost 40 years, gardened for 50 years and yet have learned a lot over the last few days following these posts. I too am pleased that passionate gardeners can take opposing, not adversial positions, to articulate their points of view without being disrespectful to those who champion other views. It's too cold here in Vermont to garden outside so these conversations sure keep us old gardeners perking.

That we have farmed, some would say mined, our soil for thousands of years is one very good reason to have that soil tested, especially if no one has added anything back to the soil.
As I have posted here many times before when we first started gardening here, 40 some years ago, the soil tests said the soils pH was 5.7 and was low in Magnesium and it had low levels of P and K. After a few years of adding organic matter, compost, shredded leaves, cover/green manure crops, etc. the soil tests now show (and have for several years) the soils pH is 7.2 and the P and K levels are high optimal. Plants grow quite well with few disease or insect problems, in those planting beds. Others, growing in soils not as well amended, do have problems and some problems just cannot be well controlled even with strong and healthy plants. But control is easier with strong and healthy plants then with the others.

Hey Folks.

I am a newbie to this forum but I can offer some professional advice on the topic of soil testing. I am a professional landscape contractor in southern New Jersey.

In my business, it is standard practice for me to do a soil test for new customers. pH, organic matter content and soil structure are the primary factors that I am testing. When all are in balance, my job is a walk in the park. Well balanced soil allows grass and landscape plants to thrive using less fertilizer, less irrigation and less worry about disease or insect infestation.

A significant portion of my customer base has been brainwashed into thinking that a lawn needs the "5 Step" application process. Ask anyone who knows, the last thing anyone should ever do to their lawn is apply 5 applications of nitrogen, weed killer or chemicals in a broadcast format and especially fungicide when no fungus is present. Appling that amount of nitrogen is like feeding your child nothing but candy or an an adult with a primary diet of coffee or soda. This process eventually strips the soil of organic matter and necessary nutrients leaving grass and plants very susceptible to drought, disease and despair.

Ideal soil should have a high level or organic material, drain well and have a pH reading in the range of 6.5 to 7.5. Established lawns only need 1 inch of water per week and should have 3 deep, soaking type waterings per week instead of a shallow watering every day. These practices encourage roots to extend deep into the soil where the water is stored. A university level soil test helps determine these factors and provides a plan of attack.

States throughout the country are passing very strict legislation controlling the amount of nitrogen and phosphorus that can be applied. The truth is that the majority of the chemicals associated with lawn and garden fertilizers wind up in our waterways causing significant algae blooms. The increase in algae limits sunlight infiltration and deplete oxygen levels.

Times are changing. Any thoughts???

Here is a link that might be useful: Yardworkuniversity.com

Kimm, do your soil test indicate levels for a wide range of traces? Many feel that the land-grant tolerances for traces are far too low.

Yardwork: delightful post. I noted with a chuckle:

"This process eventually strips the soil of organic matter and necessary nutrients leaving grass and plants very susceptible to drought, disease and despair."

Despair! Is that referring to the grass itself or the person trying to grow it? Heehee

This is a very good thread especially for us hibernators in the north.

I have been reading some old farm, garden, and soil books from about 100 years ago. These books give a perspective that we don't know much about.

Most of the early settlers came from western Europe and began farming like they did in the old country. Back there they had mostly gentle rains and not the cloudbursts which wash away uncovered soil and leached minerals away. It was a hard learn and oft times when a farm was "worked or gullied out", they just moved west to repeat the same mistakes.
In the old books it was lamented that farm prices were low and that farmers had to struggle just to feed and raise their usually large families. Tennant farmers might sell the farm manure just to eke out their living.

Let's face it folks, when there is no extra money to invest in the soil, it likely won't get invested in. I have been blessed to have the time and money to upgrade my gardens. For the farmers left around me, they are all big farmers. Any other kind just can't survive unless they have a niche market and are working themselves nearly to the bone.
Big money men are coming out of the big cities and investing their money in land for tax purposes. This has driven farm land prices nearly through the roof..

If you lasted through this, kudos.

Know of someone in jamaica that has been feeding his farming the same piece of land since his dad owned it 60 years ago. He only composts the extra fruit and scraps on his property. Then uses that. Everything grows in abundance so much of his fruit goes into composting. No soil tests. Same land for 60 years +. He just knows how and what to compost.

You do not NEED a soil test but they can HELP.

"feeding his farming "????????????????

I like the edit option.

Jamaica has the happy and fairly unusual coincidence of a perfect climate with generally high-grade soils to build on. It wasn't a sugar plantation for nuthin.

Yes your very correct.

Good evening everyone. Wayne_5, did you get your tillage kills mycorrhizae question answered? I checked out some of the sites and the ones I checked all said the same thing about destroying them by tillage. Also, I think I mentioned the colonial farmers a couple of posts ago, as well as dust bowl, etc. Farm prices haven't changed - they are still much too low and today's conventional farmers don't return anything either except for organic and eco-farmers reported by Acres USA. Roger big farmers - the USDA advice to farmers from 1970 till now was and is "Get big or get out!" Very sad. Your post was great.

Mycorrhizal Applications is an excellent site and they have a downloadable list of the plants that use endo, the ones that use ecto and the plants that use neither. Soil Secrets is excellent but doesn't come up by google but they are working on it.

Yardwork, I was born in 1943 and raised in Sewell, NJ. Where are you? I had an organic lawncare and landscape business from 2000 to 2004 in Memphis then I moved to Tucson, Az then to Cochise, Az. where I am now. Will check out your site.

MG, True, farmers have been farming for thousands of years in some places but many peoples including our own Native Americans were nomadic and didn't destroy their land. You might want to look at a book - "Farmers of 40 Centuries" about the Chinese farmers. They returned everything they could back including their own "night soil". Even so, they have suffered periodic famines and lost millions of people.

From antiquity the Egyptians got their annual shot of fertility when the Nile river flooded and receded each year. That all changed when the Russians built the Aswan Dam in the 1950's for hydroelectric power and Egyptian agriculture has gone down the tubes ever since because there are no more annual floods. Today their agriculture is just as chemicalized as ours, that's the only way they can operate.

I stand by my guns - soil testing is necessary if we want to recover our mined out, deficient soils. Composting helps but isn't everything. We gotta know our mineral profile for good results.

More info. can be had by googling this up;
The Cation-Anion Connection
by Neal Kinsey
Or you can find it on the link below.

Here is a link that might be useful: The Cation-Anion Connection

Most every soil scientist that I ahve talked with tells me that if your macro nutrients are in balance then your micro nutrients, (trace elememnts) will also be.
The argument that people have farmed for thousands of years without testing soil is not a valid argument. People lived in caves and mud and wattle houses for thousands of years. People lived without electricity for thousands of years. Should we then live in caves and mud and wattle houses without electricity because of that? Can we not take advantage of the knowledge we have today?

So let's say the test shows that a couple of the macros are low, and it's a good test so it also tests for a wide range of micros and plenty of them are low (the usual condition of tests that have seen). So bringing up the low macros automatically raises the deficient micros? That doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

popeye, I admit that I have not yet checked out the mycorrhizae info. Last year I bought some Myco Apply from Fedco to dust some seeds with. Since my crops all grow very well, it is hard to evaluate this. I still am wanting a more down to earth assessment of just what tilling, how deeply, and when would harm mycorrhizae If the blanket answer is that any tilling is total death to mycorrhizae, then I would just let the matter drop and let them fend for themselves.

wayne_5, If we till we set them back - most tillers don't go deeper than about 4 inches actual but they take the entire soil food web for a ferris wheel ride, destroying the established colonies. Just think of what we are doing to the earthworm population, that is, if we have them. If I were still tilling, I would do what you did - inoculate your seed with a good mycorrhizal powder. This would ensure that you have them each season.

novascapes, Neal Kinsey has a column in Acres USA every month. He is one of the top consultants in America. If you read my post about the brass tacks of soil testing, notice that I mentioned positive and negative charged elements. Anions have a negative charge and Cations carry a positive charge. I didn't use those terms cause I didn't want to throw in two new terms to an already complex subject.

kimmsr, Having our macros in order has nothing to do with having our micros in order. Are the macros Nitrogen, Calcium, Phosphorous, Magnesium, Potassium Sulfur and Sodium the same growth nutrients as the traces Iron, Zinc, Manganese, Copper, Boron and others not tested for like Cobalt, Molybdenum and a whole list? I can't imagine a reputable soil scientist saying that and if its true then why are the micros tested for at all? I would not listen to anyone saying that. Blessings to us all.

Having the macro nutrients in balance gives you an indication that your soil is in balance. It gets very expensive to test for the micro nutrients and as long as the major ones are in balance there probably is no reason to spend you money testing for the micro nutrients. A soil test is one of the tools a gardener/farmer should be using to know whether their soil is in good tilth.
Spending money on something someone is selling as mycorrhizal fungi is largely a waste. The fungi that form that mycorrhizal relationship with plants will grow in soils well endowed with organic matter whether you"innoculate" that soil or not (where did they come from in the beginning?) and the people that sell them are snake oil salesmen.

kimm, I agree that testing for micros is expensive....that's why I sprinkled some mineral dust over my gardens that have been farmed or gardened for 10 years, 40 years, and over 100 years.

To add a sound byte to my last post....I feel good knowing that my gardens have at least a tiny assayed amount of Yttrium, cobalt, and such.

popeye, i agree, it makes no sense to assume that the traces are automatically adequate. That is the land-grant paradigm which is well known to be co-opted by the NPK manufacturers.

Pat, The big farmers and NPK mentality are starting to come around some on minor minerals.

A & L Laboratories has tested my soils for the last 26 years or so and the last one I did cost me the fantastically high price of $28.20. Boy did that break my bank account! Get real - I have seen hundreds of dollars spent on every new toy and gimmick in gardener's sheds and mine also in past years and I'm going to complain about the small amount spent on a good soil test that gives me my Macros AND Micros? Yes, you can "shotgun" your soils with various rock powders but do you know what's in them? Some have an analysis and some don't, so you may score a good balance and you may not.

Concerning mycorrhizae - In the last 10 years there have been over 50,000 research papers and scientific studies about their benefit. Yes, they originally came from nature ever since there have been plants, as I stated before but we have set them back or destroyed them by our agricultural practices. Finally, you know that they are snake oil because you have tried them, right? If you have not then you just don't know and are voicing an opinion not based in fact! I HAVE tried them (starting my 3rd season) and done some trials with and without and the differences have been spectacular. Obviously we are all free to do what we want - all I am saying is that I don't badmouth anything unless I have TRIED it. Nuff said.

Organic popeye
If one does not understand the basic anion cation concept then how can they make use of a complete soil report. The article I posted not only defines what they are but shows the importance of them when relating to different types of soils. It goes on to show how the willy nilly practice of just throwing some fertilizer and trace elements can tie up nutrients making them unavailabe to the plant.
The article supports what you are saying and gives a clear understanding why a complete soil test should be done. Although I agree with you on most everything and, no disrespect intended, but I found the article a lot less confusing than your posts.

No doubt one can get into trouble tossing traces in salt form around willy-nilly. I really doubt one could make a problem using rock powders. If you don't have enough soil life activity the rock powder won't be of much or any use, but it can't hurt.

From what I have read....the Eastern part of the country which has been farmed longer and receives heavier rainfall tends to have used up and leached many minerals out of the original soil while western soils with light rainfall might be mineral rich and even toxic in a few spots. Sandy soils may tend to be poorly fortified with about anything.

Even though there might be some minerals left in a low fertility soil, these minerals might remain unavailable in the soil synergy they have.

Novascapes, pnbrown and wayne_5, Excellent responses and thanks to ya. Novascapes, I have an excellent presentation on anions and cations on my site done by Michael Melendrez on the "Soil Building page". Please take a look and tell me what you think. He says it better than I ever could. Roger on the confusing part of my posts. It is a very complex subject. I have used some rock powders in the past and I am in agreement. Basically they can't hurt because the Soil Food Web has to break them down, I just wish for the analysis of them so I don't create an imbalance. Thanks again and blessings to us all.

Regarding rock powders and such, Eliot Coleman tells a story about when he was first building his farm in Maine. His soils lacked calcium and had high acidity, so he decided to add oyster shells. He found an old cannery where the where piled up, filled a few barrels, and brought them back to the farm. He didn't have a way to crush them, so he just tossed them whole around his fields and figured the rototiller would take care of it. A more experienced farmer came to visit him a little later, saw all the shells out there and said "Damn it, Eliot, those shells will still be breaking down a hundred years from now!" Eliot looked back at the farmer and said "That's about what I figured. Prob'ly the only job on this whole farm I finally got done."

And he was right. Over 40 years later you can still walk around his fields and see bright white broken shell pieces all through his soil.

Here is a link that might be useful: Four Season Farm, Harborside, Maine

Organic Popeye,

Thanks for posting the address of your website and thanks for providing so much wonderful information there. As a lifetime learner in the joys of gardening, I found your site to be extremely useful. I now have another good source of educational material to read each morning waiting for spring to arrive.

Also, my guess is that you took the name Popeye from your many years in the navy. Thank you for your service to this country.

Some assumptions were made by some people some time back that later research proved wrong. More research found that soils with low levels of organic matter had, in tssts, low levels of micronutrients. However, soils with adequate levels of organic matter had adequate levels of micro nutrients.
Soils in Maine, and all over the northeast, are known to be acidic, mostly because of the amount of rainfall thyey receive. Maybe, if you have access to them, oyster shells might help correct that, but a good reliable soil test for soil pH is always a good idea before adding even those and whether oyster shells will help will depend on how much organic matter is in your soil.

Here is a link that might be useful: about soil micro nutrients

The work is just never done [finished]
kimm, that is a good site as far as it goes [4 micros]. Research is finding that many other micros have a favorable catylist type action in plant growth.

But we don't just stop with plant health unless it is flowers to admire. We humans need micro nutrients and it is amazing how complicated it is since new discoveries are being found for more and more micros. Elements like scandium, yttrium, chromium, vanadium, cobalt, strontium, molybdenum, cesium, and probably many more are cropping up as needed for optimum health.
kimm, as you keep preaching, OM is a key part of the nutrients being able to find a full synergy to be absorbed by the soil. Good.

Doctors are not trained in nutrition and tend to diagnose symtoms and treat those symtoms rather than seeing the body as a whole holistic unit rather than a collection of parts like a lawn mower.

I gotta tell you a story. 1977-1980 I was stationed at the Naval Test Center, Patuxent River, Md. I tested my soils there and came up with severe shortages of Calcium, Magnesium and Potassium. Soil ph was 6.1, acidic. I was talking to one of the old timers and he told me that when he was young the farmers used to pile up huge piles of wood, oyster shells and some crab shells if they had them. That part of Maryland was on the Chesapeake Bay and one of the major industries was oystering and crabbing. The pile was then set on fire and allowed to burn and smolder for days. The oyster shells and crab shells supplied Calcium, Magnesium, phosphorous and a broad spectrum of traces. The wood ashes supplied potassium and Calcium. They didn't soil test but from experience they knew that this combination helped their soils. It worked...

Vermontkingdom, Thanks for taking a look at my site and thanks for your kind comment. You're right. I was tagged with Popeye and I like that little dude. Always have since my childhood.

Correction - I was stationed at the Naval Air Test Center.

So I am reading Albrecht's presentation on the effect of historical climate and geology on soils of the US (which also applies to Canada). It can be read at soil and health dot org.

Basically he says that the fortunate confluence of geological and meteorological forces occurs only in the central plains, that region that historically supported the bison. It is there that food crops produce the highest rate of all nutrients and it is much higher than other regions. For example, just from the wetter eastern kansas to the drier western part protein in wheat was almost double in the 1940 harvest. Western kansas is in that zone that gets just enough rainfall but not too much (though global warming is likely changing that picture rapidly).

Regions that currently or formerly support hardwood forests necessarily have less ideal soils and areas that support coniferous forest are the worst. That goes along with local observation here that fields growing jack-pine are very poor indeed, those places that grow the leguminous locust tree are much better.