Thank you, Niels, for that link. I love grandifloras - they are tall enough for me to sniff, rather than being so short in zone 5a. Jean Marion in Iowa posted photos of 777 in HMF. Her soil is alkaline, pH of 8. William Shakespeare 2000 doesn't like my alkaline clay, and I am looking for something more productive. Many thanks.

At the momemt it is probably only availble as custom root from Vintage Gardens. I am not sure how well it does own root - I could not get my cuttings I brought home to root ...they died :-) It did well in a big urban zone 6b rose garden in Salt Lake City (93F and stood up well to the heat) - Can't comment on rebloom - but the shrub looked very robust and had many flowers on it and I was so taken by their beauty and fragrance. It may have a little better cane survival in colder zones than pure hybrid teas - as Grandiflora often have. But I don't estimate may grow it in USA - since most have been sold on the US West Coast.

It was introduced in 2001 so will be under patent protection for a while yet. You had best plan on keeping yours alive.

Heirloom Roses recently rescued Rose Rhapsody from oblivion; maybe they would do the same for this one, if they could be persuaded that a sufficient market exists for it. I imagine there are significant costs associated with securing right to propagate and sell from the current owner of the variety.

what exactly is a grandiflora - a big floribunda? Have come across this term a few times (mostly in reference to Quenn Elizabeth) but it is not in use in the UK. Not sure it sounds like my cup of tea anyway but just in case?

I've read that Grandiflora is a class that was invented in America and that most rosarians around the world just call them Floribundas. Technically Grandifloras are supposed to be larger than Floribundas and their clusters of blossoms are supposed to open all at once, instead of the primary flower followed by the rest. Honestly, I can't really tell the difference.

I can not be sure how well this rose will perform in IA or IL Strawberrryhill - or that it will repeat flower as well as William Shakespeare 2000 does for me. But I guess it will be more vigorous. Jean Marion may be able to enlighten us and share her experiences growing this rose, if she reads this.

I first saw this rose in Bob Bauers garden in Salt Lake City in 2008 - and it was remarkable - I see that he on HMF writes in the comments:

"I have grown this rose for three years now and I love it. The blooms are always strikingly beautiful and fragrant. Dark reddish purple blooms with loads of petals appear in clusters on this upright bush which can easly attain 6 or 7 feet tall in a season after having been pruned down to 3 feet.

This is a rose that needs larger distribution! It is truly a great one, and I don't say that lightly.

I am here rooting for this rose. I am curious as to its ancestry and who hybridized it.

Bob Bauer"

In a press release from 2004 Jean Marion describe the rose:

The 777 Rose�s ancestry is well known to rose collectors as having some of the finest purple genes in the rose world. As expected, the 777 Rose color is rich and striking. Buds open from a velvety purple to a soft medium purple-red with a bright golden eye. It has deep green foliage, few thorns and is more pest and disease resistant than other roses.

As a Grandiflora, this strong vigorous plant supports up to ten stunning flowers on each long stem. It is an excellent long lasting cut flower with magnificent fragrance likened to the deep citrus like fragrance of a southern Magnolia.

And another HMF guest comments:

I have been growing 777 for two years now. The plant is vigorous and blooms throughout the season. The blooms were initially deep purple velvet, but are now just a disappointing crimson. The blooms are also more of a cupped rosette shape than the anticipated classic hybrid tea urn shape. However, the fragrance is as advertised - an exquisite, rich, old rose perfume.

(He he - hard to be dissapointed that a rose look too little like HT - but granted - the Rose on HMF is classified as a HT - this user too agree on the fragrance though!

I wish we could get a clear definition of the class "Grandiflora" - I also think of them as bigger, floribundas :-) and yes Queen Elizabeth is a grandiflora (Even though I much prefer Poulsens Astrid Lindgren - A truly great, healthy rose that becomes quite large (4-6 feet even in colder zones).

CORRECTION: Jean Marion (Decobug) is from Idaho, not Iowa (I don't think when I type fast!) I looked at the pics of 777 and saw its GLOSSY dark green foliage.

Hi Suzy (Campanula): Grandiflora are MUST-HAVES in zone 5a, since they are tall enough to sniff - while some Hybrid teas and floribundas are REALLY SHORT from winter-die back. Queen Elizabeth is perfect here - she's 3 feet tall in the spring, while others look like mini-roses.

3 foot tall - grief, it grows twice that and more in the UK. I used to have it along with a nasty Blue Moon but the bare legs and few blooms somewhere in the stratosphere guaranteed an early trip to the compost heap. Still unaccountably popular in the UK despite the anodyne meh sort of pink, no scent and mean with its blooms when it bothers. Still, it seems to live forever (unfortunately).
Niels, how many flushes do you get over a season? We only really get 2 good repeats, at least in my part of the UK.
So, would it be fair to say that grandifloras grow in clusters like floribundas, but overall, have blooms which are as large or larger than hybrid teas?

Campanula.....

You are looking at QE through modern eyes. At it's time, it was a break-through rose. It is rudely healthy in many climates and I think that is why it is still very popular.

Looking at the descendants list on HMF in the linage reports, there are over 1200 roses listed where Queen Elizabeth played a role in their parentage. If you see flaws in QE today, you can see that breeders have worked to improve the rose and bring forward its good qualities. Many of those roses have stood the test of time, too.

The term 'grandiflora' was invented for QE and accepted in the US because it's habit was nothing like a hybrid tea or a floribunda. (Of course, many roses don't fit any particular class perfectly.) In England and, I believe, the rest of the world, this term was not adopted as the roses were cluster blooming and therefore, floribundas. No need to create a special class. Just one of those things.

If a rose is classified as a 'grandiflora' in the US, it tells me a lot about the habit of the rose and how to site it. I don't have room for many roses of that particular class and I don't like the really tall roses because they are horrid to disbud in the spring to deter the rose curculios, but I do think I would like to find a source other than the one listed on HMF to grow '777'. I'd like to give the rose a try.

Smiles,
Lyn

The term 'Grandiflora' was created specifically for 'Queen Elizabeth' (in reality, a Hybrid Tea) because the American introducers of that rose were convinced that QE was going to be a huge success (which it was), and that it was to be the first of a new family of roses that would grow very tall and consistently produce candlelabra of large, Hybid Tea-like bloom. The rest of the rose world saw the new term as the ill-conceived contrivance that it is and never adopted it.

The term has served only to muddle things up. Some hybridizers of good roses that meet the criteria for a Grandiflora classification have opted not to register the roses as such because that designation tends to have an adverse impact on sales. Case in point: Tom Carruth's 'Crystalline'. In my garden that HT out-Grandifloras QE by a mile!

Speaking of QE, here's a bit of rose trivia . . . Contrary to almost every published source of rose info, QE was NOT named for Elizabeth II, but for Elizabeth, the Queen Mother. The rose was in pre-production for several years. The introducers lucked-out on 2 scores: (1) Elizabeth II ascended to the throne just before the rose was marketed, and (2) it was something of a fluke that the new queen and her mother shared the same name.

Wow, I remember all of the discussion about this rose on this forum back in 2001-2002. I used to make yearly rose road trips up to the Bay Area (and sometimes Mendocino County) back then. I remember being very close to buying one in a 5 gallon pot from Regan in either '02 or '03, but I didn't have room in my back seat for it. What a blast from the past :-D