boy .. starting big huh???

replacing 2 feet of soil over a 52 Ft. by 24 Ft. garden.. wow .... hope you have some equipment other than your back ...

you go girl ..

anyway .... i like to grow things under trees .... my most hated tree is any and all maples IN THE GARDEN .... shallow rooted... fibrous rooted .... and a super competitor for all resources ... i would tell you ANYTHING other than a maple ...

here is a pic of a maple in pure sand .. a big maple ...
{{gwi:208954}}

what i want you to contemplate.. is when if ever any tree will grow out of that prime soil you are planning on ... and therein lays your primary problem ...

is there any reason your trees have to be in the bed???? they would be better off placed in the adjoining lawn.. without soil amendments ...

in my experience.. apple and crabapple is not much better ...

i googled the lilac.. and the top references are for arbor day ... i hope you have a better source than arbor day .... wonderful place to make donations.. but i would NOT rely on stock from them ... good luck with that ... i mean if you get it for the donation.. go for it.. but dont RELY on them ....

cheap is cheap.. and i am the king.. but you should be able to get better quality stock for not all that much more ...

finally with 30 years of experience.. i have no clue how potting them will make your life any easier .... why cant they just be planted in the ground??? growing things in pots is one of the hardest challenges garden related i ever tried .... you can still move them.. or remove them.. you just avoid all the pot problems ....

so.. are you relying on this selection because of an arborday order????

you can do much better in my estimate.. for what that is worth ...

i hope you understand this is a challenge .. not a blasting .... i almost didnt reply since you make the presumption that any given reply will be some evil blast .... [but in the end.. i presumed it was humor on your part .. and sucked it up and said to myself.. boy midwinter blues have you a bit paranoid.. lol] ......

good luck

ken

ps: potting variables include: media, watering, fertilization, winter care, sun, humidity etc.. etc..

my biggest problem was remembering to water them every few days for 2 or 3 years running.. life ALWAYS gets in the way.. and they are found a month later, dry as a bone ... and near death ....

Pots in zone 3/4?
Is this even possible?

I think your best bet, if you want to start small to save money is to plant them in the ground, somewhere you can dig them up later if you want to transplant. I think you will be fighting an uphill battle keeping anything alive in your winters in a container unless you literally plant the container.
And if you keep graduating to larger containers you are not going to get as rapid growth or healthy root system as if it was in the ground, and it defeats the purpose of starting small.

And not to be a tree snob but the selections you listed are nothing exceptional or out of the ordinary. You can probably find those fairly easily at garden centers. If you are going to start with what I call "mail order sizes," why not try out some less common, less problematic trees?

I have no experience in North Dakota so I won't comment on the plants but I will make one comment on the fence. Make sure it is not a solid fence. Have gaps between the pickets otherwise only the plants right up against the fence will be protected and plants further away will suffer worse than if there was no fence. Gaps cause eddies that slow the wind down as it goes through it, a solid fence will increase wind speed as it goes over and down the other side.

tj

garden will be 52 Ft. by 24 Ft. I plan on replacing the soil two feet deep through out because it is clay.

Wow. Hopefully you can get drainage installed to obviate any perching issues.

It will be fenced in with a cedar 6 Ft high all the way around because of wind.

This will cut the wind a little. Not much overall. In the lee of the windward fence you'll get some protection. You'll get more turbulent winds and some swirling in corners from the fence.

so I am looking for something I can prune almost like a bonsai to fit my small garden.

Zero of the trees you have listed tolerate that treatment nor, as indicated above, have any sort of distinction; much better is to plant something of appropriate size in any case. You may want to: 1) Visit a decent nursery to look around for ideas, not the gray bigbox hastily plopped down in the midst of a sea of 4000 acres of parking, 2) purchase a garden plant book recommended by someone knowledgeable that is appropriate for your area, 3) join a club or something to gain some knowledge of your area and to visit other yards to see what they have.

I plan on buying the trees this spring bare root and small and potting them up till my garden is ready for them which could be as long a 1-2 years.

I can't imagine why one would do that.

You have plenty of time. Do the work to gain local knowledge, get your plans set, and patience.

Dan

Wow. That's pretty big garden. I don't understand why you'd have to replace clay soil with something else. If it's a flat area, you could add extra topsoil to create a small mound like 8 inches taller in the middle and slope down to the outer to prevent excessive pooling of water. There are plenty of plants that can tolerate clay soil with no problem. In fact, over time, you will turn clay into nice stuff. All it needs is a lot of organic matter.

By the way, don't listen to Ken when it comes to maple. He thinks all of them are same but in fact, not the same. Generally large American maples such as silver,norway, red and sugar have aggressive surface root system compared to Asian maples such as shantung, Japanese, Paperbark, Trident. I've seen a lot of Asian maples in gardens with a lot of shrubs around them growing fine. He's not really a maple expert. Just conifer...

You should have your county extension to provide you on plants, etc for clay soil.

Here is a link that might be useful: proof you can plant under certain maples..

I don't know...I have Geraniums, Fothergilla, Lilac, Rose of Sharon, Spirea and Hosta under my freemanii maples, no problems...now I didn't plant all of those, but none the less there aren't at issues at this point. The oldest freemanii is 16 years old.

I'd consider freemanii a moderate agressor for maples.

Ah. Lou has a different take on the clay removal. I thought it was for a veggie garden. If I'm incorrect, then yes, do mounds and save several thousand dollars construction labor and material, and maybe a hundred in water due the superior water holding capacity of clay. Incorporate the new soil into the native soil to get better drainage. The south-facing side of the mounds should get dark rocks on them as well and those areas will be two weeks sooner in the spring. Shantung, Amur, Tatarian maples naturally grow in that sort of climate (well, maybe not Shantung, but it will take it). Lou has some nice pix of Shantung, IIRC.

Dan

"hope you have some equipment other than your back" I do. Your right that would be a crazy idea with out a father in law in the dirt moving business!

"why cant they just be planted in the ground?" They can be and that is a perfectly good idea but I don't own ground in ND yet so I did not think of it but I could plant on the rental land maybe.

"i almost didn't reply since you make the presumption that any given reply will be some evil blast" I am glad you did, : ).

"you should be able to get better quality stock for not all that much more" What is your personal favorite?

"why not try out some less common, less problematic trees?" Good! That is what I wanted to hear! What trees would you recommend for what I am after?

"Gaps cause eddies that slow the wind down as it goes through it" Thank you so much for explaining that to me, I did wonder why they did it that way around here!

"Hopefully you can get drainage installed to obviate any perching issues." Could you explain this further? I guess I don't really understand what you mean. I have never worked with clay before.

"Join a club or something." Don't I wish I could but I live out in the middle of nowhere! An hour from a town with a little mall and as far as I can tell by to TWO closed up Nursery's I have seen around town that went out of business they are not really into plants around here. There is not anything online here for plant clubs or in the paper. They do plant trees here as wind brakes but having come from Brainerd MN being able to see for miles is hard on me.

Thank you all for your thoughtful responses, please keep the good info. coming!

Thanks Again, Moon Garden Girl