What about spreading disease?

We've had some interesting discussions on that:

Urine as Fertilizer
http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/load/soil/msg0111440622126.html
Peeing in the Garden
http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/load/soil/msg0320513214020.html
Urine in Compost, P-U!
http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/load/soil/msg1011322819526.html

As for disease, urine is not where all the microbes end up!

Like all manures humanure does have the potential of spreading numerous disease unless it is properly composted before use. Where human waste flows freely things such as Cholera, Listeria, Salmonella, E-Coli, and some others are very common. Where uncomposted "night soil" was used to fertilize fields in Asia these diseases were very common, and may still be. However, when handled properly, like any other animal manure, humanure could be of benefit if we canjust get over the idea we need to flush it away.

I wonder, does humanure have a high concentration of salts too?

I will admit that I abdicate my "throne" and am not ready/willing to "go there" yet (sorry, all of the puns are just too tempting, I couldn't hold it). Urine is fine and I am working on using more gray water in the garden and will compost chicken droppings, and talk to the neighbors for the horse manure and honestly, that should prove adequate for my gardening N needs. Almost forgot the worms. I will also use my worm castings.

I don't think it would be any more salty than cow manure or that of other large animals. Urine is rather salty and shouldn't be put on the same place too often, especially in dry climates.

So are we going to start seeing %100 Organic Composted Vegetarian Humanure on the stores shelves soon? (Screened and de-peanuted)

tishtoshnm, are you making reference to things such as table salt or rock salt. Most everything chemists refer to is a "salt" which does not mean the same thing we use it for every day. If the product is of the Sodium family it is a salt.

Not just sodium, a salt is the result of a reaction between a base and an acid.

Proper composting can be as simple as letting time and animals of various sizes do their work. The only requirement is to prevent fresh feces from being unprotected to rain. When one takes a crap in the woods one has the common sense to cover up with a little dead leaves or whatever, right? It's mere common sense. Don't crap in bodies of water, don't crap in open holes that can fill with water (no matter what you have read about military campaigns), cover up. If it's going to be many deposits collected it all becomes more important, of course.

If you think you have cholera or dysentary, go to the hospital, a flush toilet won't save you. If you think someone else does, call an ambulance and get away from their house. Feces does not create those diseases.

The pathogens, disease causing organisms, may be present in any manure and if that manure is improperly handled could cause the disease to flourish, as has happened in Haiti since the earthquake and is very common in much of the third world where human as well as animal manure is not properly disposed of. Someone could be a carrier of a disease, such as Typhoid Mary was, and pass that on to others without being aware they are infected.
scientia potentia est

Kimm, please bother to read my posts instead of simply banging the rhetoric button.

Is Haiti in the temperate latitudes? Does one have to ingest another's feces to contract typhoid? Let's keep on topic. I'll define it again:

those of us in the temperate latitudes have no good reason to keep feces where it can do no benefit to agriculture and in many cases over-fertilizes ground water and ultimately bodies of surface water.

kimmsr, my question was based off the oft repeated "manures often have too much salt." Most of my gardening has been done either near Palm Springs, CA and now in the mountains of NM. In these places, due to the minimal rain fall, gardeners are often cautioned against using manures because of a concern for salt build up in the soil. I was just curious if the same caution would hold true for humanure. The question is really more academic than anything to me because I am not likely to pursue that method yet. Although, if water conditions severely deteriorated, I may have to consider a composting toilet.

tishtoshnm, in arid areas, little rainfall, many soils can develop "salt" buildup even if no manure is ever used. These are the Sodic soils that are sometimes referenced on these forums and for which the use of gypsum is often suggested, to aid in moving the Sodium out of the soil. Adding organic matter to such soils can change the moisture holding capabilities which can aid in moving those "salts" out of the soil also.
Mr Brown, you do not need to make contact with any feces to be exposed to the disease pathogens that cause Typhus, Cholera, Listeri, Salmonella, or EColi. These disease pathogens can be transmitted the same way the viruses that cause influenza, meningitis, mononucleosis, etc. are.

Senhor Kimm, I believe you made my point. Virulent diseases have various possible vectors. Water, flies, rodents, human hands, etc that come in contact with fresh feces of an infected individual are one of them.

In that light, putting fresh feces into flowing or sitting water seems rather stupid, like leaving it on the ground uncovered from flies and rodents is rather stupid. The hands issue is why hand-washing with soap prevents transmission of disease more than flush toilets. It is also why in India and the middle east one never touches food or other people with the left hand, which is reserved for a special task. An example of a wonderfully well-honed cultural response to feces-borne epidemics.

On the topic of salt, I'm just wondering if the typical bagged 'composted manure' product has a lot of cattle urine in it as well. That's where all the salt is, and if it's a feedlot or some other type of CAFO, it would make sense that urine and feces are mixed together.

There's not enough rainfall where sodic soils naturally exist, is it a sustainable idea in the first place to fight over the lizards out in the middle of nowhere and try to grow crop? Who pays the water bill? The native plants in sodic soils are salt tolerant, Kimmsr, the gypsum genie comes out of her hiding place once again...there is a difference between a natural sodic soil and what is a poorly treated, wasted, poop field that a farmer had to eventually abandon cause he poisoned her with too much salt and not enough rain to wash it away. Gypsum is a remediation amendment for past abuses, generally, for most sodic soils man doesn't live there for good reason. Have you been to the salt flats lately and checked out the prices of everything? Talk about a poor place to live...'less your a lizard...I do have my suspicions, Kimmsr..lol...

I think it could be sterilized by using the hot water method. You would collect it in pot and boil water and put the lid o the pot for hours. Urine would be collect separately, because that is sterile already. Urine could be poured on the soil as long as it is not burning the plants. I mentioned this on another thread but no one commented on my idea. It was about killing a bacteria that comes from cat poop. If you saw the movie trainspotting someone dies from it in the movie. So, I think it is a good thing over all if we can get the germs out. But, on the other hand I think about Mexico and the problems with the food and water. I would not want the US become like Mexico in this regard where you have to boil the water before you drink it. But it is better to treat waste naturally without toxic chemicals. I am all in flavor of saving the planet and reducing environmental damage.

Well, I am paying the water bill on my naturally occuring sodic soil, although when I have the dough for rain gutters, I will work on harvesting rainwater (our water is also hard, no-win). The lizards do not seem to mind me encroaching and growing out here as I have provided them shelter (most of my beds are lined with stone and they like the little gaps). They also are my organic pesticide, they help tremendously with squash bugs. Unfortunately, they invited their larger cousin, the skinks to move in and those give me the creeps but they eat bugs too! I just would not want to exacerbate the salt problem with humanure which would be something for those of us co-habitating with lizards.

pnbrown, clearly you have no grasp of history OR medicine.

Cholera used to be VERY common in temperate climates. So was dysentery. And typhoid.

Giardia? Hep A? Enteroviruses? Rotaviruses? E. coli? Cryptosporidiosis? Coliform bacteria? Listeria?

All of these things can easily be contracted through contaminated water. For some of these diseases, water contaminated with fecal matter is the ONLY method of transmission that results in a widespread outbreak.

Here is a link that might be useful: Really, now?

I didn't think anyone was unaware of the London cholera epidemics.

Where in this thread or on these forums have I said feces should be put in water? When you use your flush toilet, is your feces in water? Because you have made the irrational decision to float that turd, you then have to send the water to some kind of treatment process, to de-contaminate it.

Wouldn't it be much simpler to treat the feces and urine without having to deal with potentially contaminated water?

pnbrown, I found composting toilets by accident. I was looking at bins wishing I had just one more, and there is a new section on woodland direct. I did not really look into them, so I don't know if you put it outside in an outhouse or what you do with them.

I do think it is a good idea, but some people won't be responsible. We can't trust everyone to deal with it properly. I read a book about cholera in India around the turn of the century. It was awful, you know I don't know if the risk is worth the benefit, unless society breaks down completely in one of those survivalist scenarios.

Here is a link that might be useful: woodland direct link

BTW, cholera outbreaks certainly have happened in the temperate climes, but other than the episodes in european cities that had become far too crowded for the collection systems that had worked all through the middle ages to function properly, describing them as VERY common is hyperbole. Occasional very limited outbreaks was the reality. The extremely high mortality rate of cholera makes its spread in ways other than domestic water supply extremely limited.

Therefore, the deal is pretty easy to understand: never, ever, let feces get near water. Keep it covered and in a very organically active environment that can absorb heavy rains easily and there will never be a problem.