What sort of lime did you use? Regular Ag Lime, Dolomitic Lime, or another type? Was it straight calcium or did it contain magnesium as well? What were the ingredients?

Just curious, what were your thoughts on using the ammonium sulfate to correct the lime problem? How would it correct it?

Look forward to hearing from you.

Dave

If you type "buy 21-0-0" without the quotes into google, a bunch of stuff pops up.
Ammonium sulfate and sulfur coated urea work at roughly the same speed to neutralize lime and push the pH down and it's pretty slow. Ammonium sulfate is a quicker release product than sulfur coated urea so you would be putting down less actual nitrogen per application (I hope) but more frequently.
What was your starting pH when you limed? How much did you apply, what type did you apply and when did you apply it? Did you apply it to the surface only or did you till it in? What type of lime did you use? Would you happen to know they clay content of your soil? What kind of plants are we talking about? Can you till anything into the soil or are there established plants that would be severely damaged by that sort of thing?

As far as, what happened to all the fertilizers....
They're still out there and they still have the numbers on the bag. They just throw in a little more marketing now than they used to. Everything says stuff like:
"Aunt Millie's Branch Bustin' - Root Satisfyin' - Magical Mystery Citrus Chow!
(16-8-2)"
You just have to look for it. The brand name doesn't matter and the plant that they say it's for doesn't matter. Just figure out what you need nutrient wise and buy the material that best meets your needs based on what it contains.

Fertilizer formulations like 10-10-10 are still available. They are often termed "all-purpose" fertilizers, as they deliver a balanced dose of primary nutrients, suitable for many planting purposes. But excessive liming should only require something to offset or neutralize the raised pH.....not sure why you think you need a fertilizer, specifically. Ag sulfur alone should work, although not immediately. And likely less expensive than a fertilizer. If you feel you need to fertilize for other reasons, try the azalea fertilizer - it will have a nitrogen component as well as an acidifying agent like the sulfur.

Ammonium sulfate is now difficult to obtain because a bunch of yo-yos of certain political persuasions like to make bombs out of it.

ddave
what were your thoughts on using the ammonium sulfate to correct the lime problem? How would it correct it?

gardengal48
But excessive liming should only require something to offset or neutralize the raised pH.....not sure why you think you need a fertilizer,

Ammonium sulfate and sulfur coated urea are acidifying fertilizers and will adjust the soil pH downward over time with regular use. Since they are more soluble than other materials often used to acidify the soil, such as soil sulfur and iron sulfate, they are often a slower but more effective way to adjust the soil pH downward throughout the entire active root zone because they will go into solution and can be watered in to a deeper depth before the acidifying reactions occur. Soil sulfur will only adjust the soil pH downward as deeply in the soil as it is incorporated (or maybe another centimeter or two more) and is a tough way to address an alkalinity situation in existing plantings. Sulfur in the sulfate form is a much smaller contributor to of the acidifying nature of ammonium sulfate than the ammonium component. If you really need me to, I could go through the acidifying chemistry of ammonium sulfate and sulfur coated urea for you but I'd rather not. I'm trying to learn to be less wordy.

Ammonium sulfate is now difficult to obtain because a bunch of yo-yos of certain political persuasions like to make bombs out of it.

You're thinking of ammonium nitrate.

Just to expand a bit on what the above answer said: ammonium sulfate's acidifying action arises from the bacterial oxidation of the ammonium ion to nitric acid. This is in addition to the sulfate ion that hydrolyzes to sulfuric acid. Pound for pound, it eventually has 6 times the neutralizing capacity of iron sulfate (measured as CaCO3).
However, it really depends on how much you over-limed and how rich in N your soil already is. If it was a significant amount of lime, I think you may be better off using iron sulfate than using large amounts of fertilizer salts. The extra iron is going to be locked up anyway, whereas excess N is readily available at neutral pH.

I used pelletized lime, calcium carbonate, made by a company in Canaan, CT. And the amount was a based on that recommended from an old soil analysis done by Cornell. The pH for that sample was 6.2 and an earlier one was 5 something. Unfortunately being a poor record keeper with a shot memory I'm not sure of where the samples were taken. Just assumed the soil in my yard was more or less the same. One I'm pretty sure of was from an area near our present vegetable garden.

I don't know what the pH of my rose garden is. An old cheap pH tester doesn't work anymore although by vigorously cleaning the probe it worked briefly and showed over 10. My new one doesn't work at all and a "kit" for testing pH doesn't seem to work either. So I'm flying by the seat of my pants except I have rose flowers that are malformed and small. Its' still early here so I've yet to see how some of my OGR's do.

One of my oldest roses, Robusta, has always been reliable with large perfectly formed brilliant red singles, not a complicated flower form so it shouldn't be that hard to form. And they are small and few in number. An early bloomer, Karl Forster, that produces probably several hundred flowers none of which is like they were last year. Some don't open at all.

So what else could affect them other than pH?

Dont try to acidify your soil unless you are certain that it is necessary, otherwise you risk causing serious damage to your plants and soil.

That being said, ammonium sulfate can be purchased at Walmart (21-0-0). See the link for a picture of the bag I bought there. I use this product regularly since my native soil is dense saline clay with a pH of about 8.4. I also use pure sulfuric acid, and micronized elemental sulfur manufactured locally for farmers.

Here is a link that might be useful: ammonium sulfate

Oh, okay. So we may or may not be dealing with a pH problem.
I'm not a rose expert but I can say this. They don't like alkaline soil too much but a high pH isn't going to cause deformation of the flowers. The only deformation I can think of that could be caused by over liming is a potential boron deficiency that could result in stunted new growth and "tight" internodes. Maybe someone more knowledgeable about roses can chime in.
Other things that can deform flowers in include insect damage, plant disease, herbicide overspray, mechanical damage... anything that affects the bud during flower formation.
Stunting of growth can happen for a whole truck load of reasons. Over watering, under watering, soil compaction, competition with other plants for resources, very high or very low pH, elevated salinity, overspray, nematodes, very low fertility and on and on.
Reduced flowering can happen when the plants are stressed by any one or combination of a bajillion things.

I've been growing roses for over 40 years, 25 in CA and 15 in Upstate NY. I've never seen this happen before. And the only apparent change is my liming of my rose beds. Now it is possible that Climate Change could be the cause as our weather has been very unusual. And I'll try to get a better reading on what my pH is. I'll try litmus paper and if that doesn't work explore high end pH testers.

So I'm just going to try adding acid producing fertilizers just to see what happens.

Thanks for the mention of that Walmart product which is really Ammonium Sulfate.

You can certainly explore that angle and it is possible that the reaction of your soil has something to do with the stunting and decreased flowering but..... We still don't know how much lime you applied or what the pH is now.
Also, I mentioned that I'm not a rose expert but I do know that the first symptom you will see with roses when the pH is higher than they prefer is intervienal yellowing of the foliage, beginning on the youngest growth, which may progress to the older foliage over time depending on the pH and availability of micronutrients. If you are seeing those symptoms in conjunction with poor flowering and vigor, then there may be something to it. If the pH isn't high enough to cause intervienal yellowing, then I guarantee it's not high enough to stunt the plants and reduce flowering so take a look and see if that's what you have going on.

I still think you may be chasing a red herring if you're trying to address flower deformation by adjusting the pH (which may or may not be too high). The fact that you applied lime and then your flowers were deformed does not mean that the lime caused the deformation. That's highly unlikely. If environmental conditions and/or vectors favored a certain pathogens for a time, then that could have damaged the buds (different pathogens require different conditions). If you had a couple of cold spring nights, cold could have damaged the buds. If you had a flare up of thrips, that could have damaged the buds. In all three of those cases, if conditions change, your next crop of flowers could come out okay. That doesn't mean that an application of ammonium sulfate cured them. Or if conditions still favor the pathogen or disease responsible, the next crop of flowers may also be deformed (and those are only a few of the possibilities). If you really want to get to the bottom of things consider sending a soil sample, collected from a depth of 1 to 12 inches, to a lab and have them test pH (nutrients and salinity values wouldn't hurt either since those could be significant factors). Also carefully inspect the plants for pest and disease issues especially in the buds. You may have to open a few and use a hand lens or magnifying glass.
Or you can just apply ammonium sulfate and call it a day. I ain't the plant cops.

I would lean toward the unusual weather patterns as the cause since you havent mentioned foliar deformation (herbicide) or color changes (nutrient uptake/pests). Good luck and let us know how it works out.
Dan

Just now I took a walk through my rose garden which by the was has over 100 roses. Hippolyte, a wonderful deep red very fragrant old Gallica is opening with a deformed blossom. William Baffin same. But on the other hand a rose from a amateur hybridizer, a cross between The Fairy and Therese Bugnet, is in full bloom. It is one I remember I forgot to apply lime to. And then there is another rose that is about normal one that I applied Ammonium Sulfate, Sulfur and Iron, to fix some yellow leaves So why if it had something to do with weather or other conditions such ad disease, insects, etc., wasn't TFTB affected? No it stick to my theory that is pH as it is a fundamental condition controlling the growth of plants.

It is very frustrating as I can't find the test results from the two soil samples as well as my notes on calculations of how much lime to apply. It is also frustrating not to have a reliable method to test for pH. I'll try litmus paper if I can find any in my local stores. Probably have to order it on line.

Not to mention a spoiled season on my rose garden!

I hope it works out. Since the litmus paper and other do it yourself tests aren't super reliable, and conditions have probably changed since your last tests, you might want to consider shipping off another sample to Cornell just for peace of mind.
I just looked at their site and $15.00 gets you: pH, exchange acidity (lime requirement), organic matter, and Morgan extractable phosphorus, potassium, calcium, magnesium, aluminum, iron, zinc, and manganese.

I have used calcium sulfate to loosen (flocculate) my clay soil. A friend uses magnesium sulfate to flocculate her clay for her pottery business. So, if I put ammonium sulfate on my clay soil, will it also flocculate the clay?
I'm using it because it will lower ph for my potatoes and also combat scab on them.

One of the roses that has been affected, Karl Forster, had very poor looking flowers, compared to last year. All except one which bloomed lately. That flower is exceptional as the petals edges curve inward rather than turning over as in most rose flowers. It also is very white. Both trais produce a flower that you can't take your eyes off from. KF is an early bloomer being a spinossissima hybrid. It is unusually prolific when it blooms as it blooms up and down the canes producing several hundred flowers as it is a big shrub. Anyway pondering this unusual performance I wonder if all this had something to do with our rainfall. Lately is has been normal with regular rain sometimes heavy. In early Spring it was very hot and dry. Roses suffered.

Srill there is another rose that has done the opposite of most of my others, Fritz Nobis. One that I applied NH4SO4 alond with iron and sulfur when early growth was yellow. It recovered and has had the best season every. Truly remarkable. There seems to be no pattern as some have produced poor flowers while others haven't. William Baffin for example an old rose, big and a wonderful shaped bush which is covered with flowers, had flowers with frittered petals.

Sorry I can't seem to find my former test results. Talk about frustrating.

But I have located a lab supply place in Albany with extensive types of litmus paper and hopefully the Walmart super store in A will have that version of fertilizer that is Ammonium Sulfate.

And thanks for all the kind words and suggestions. I'll report in after more experiments!

I have to test our soil for pH, routinely, every summer. We grow blueberries, and our soil is calciferous, with a pH around 7.6. It gets amended with compost made from shredded leaves and agricultural sulfur. Sometimes I have to lower the pH of our tap water with vinegar, before watering the blueberry shrubs. But you can kill a blueberry shrub with too much acid, so getting the pH right is essential. I used to use a small pH meter, carefully calibrated with solutions of known pH, to test soil samples. Now I am using indicator dye solutions, which are inexpensive, and don't require calibration. Bromothymol-blue will turn blue at pH=7.6, and yellow at pH=6.0. Bromocresol-purple is purple at pH=6.8, and yellow at pH=5.2. Bromocresol-green is blue at pH=5.4, and yellow at pH=3.8. You dig up a small sample of soil, about one tablespoon, and drench the sample with distilled water. The excess water is poured off, and filtered through a coffee filter or something similar, and the filtrate is what gets tested for pH. Each indicator dye costs around 2 dollars, for one fluid ounce, enough to do about 100 soil tests. There are several scientific supply houses that sell the appropriate dye solutions, through the mail. Elemental Scientific and HMS Beagle are two that I know of.

Sounds interesting. But it will take a little time to get organized to do those tests. Meanwhile I lately discovered that my old cheap pH meter (RapiTest) still had some life in it. I cleaned the probe with steel wool and now it responds. I know that is probably a too severe way to clean it so the other day I tried Wright's Silver cream that also worked. Then I read just now that hydrochloric acid is the way to go. And then use something called Kemwipes. I can see why the solutions would be better as pushing the meter probe into the ground, the needle jumps all over the place so it is probably necessary take a sample of soil, stir it up, moisten it then run the test. Will try that.

Hey I grew up in Dane County, little town of Sun Prairie. Now probably not so little. This was 50 years ago.

My RapiTest pH meter is working. I checked it by putting the probe in Sulfuric Acid and caustic soda which flipped the needle to each end. Now in trying it in different areas of my rose beds I found that indeed the pH was high around 8 in most places. So now at least I have a better idea of what to do. And why using ammonium sulfate is probably a good idea.

But I'm going to back off on my theory that the high pH caused malformed flowers. That's because after a number of more normal rain flowers have also returned to normal. That's good!

Oh by the way cleaning the probe did it. First I used steel wool but I've since learned that hydrochloric acid also does it. And then regularly cleaning the probe after each use is also necessary.

The very strong acid and base tell you your meter has a pulse, but since those are both far outside the range normally seen in soil, you don't really know if your meter is calibrated very well in that range.

I would suggest a baking soda solution (doesn't take much - half a teaspoon in a cup of water) which will buffer at around pH 8.3 and would not vary much with the concentration of baking soda.

For the lower end, most store-bought vinegar would be around 3.0 +/- 0.5.

I found Ammonium Sulfate locally! A 50 pound bad for $20!

An old really well established old fashioned hardware/garden supply store had it. They got it also nearby from a farm supply place that most likely bought bulk NH4S04 from a manufacturer and repackaged it. It came in a plastic bag written with a felt marker AS. On the back was a printed listing of analysis but no entries of amounts. One list covers all!

Now to the test as to whether it shows any difference.

Maxxam

It's not the sulfate in calcium sulfate (gypsum) or magnesium sulfate that floculates the soil, it's the calcium and magnesium.
Be sure to water your fertilizer in right away since you'll lose a bunch of nitrogen to volitilization if ammonium sulfate is left on the surface.
Ammonium sulfate is a great quick-release source of nitrogen (I wouldn't use it at a rate any higher than 5 lbs. per 1000 sq. ft. for your situation) but to make a significant change in the soil pH will require repeated use and happen over the course of years, especially if there is a bunch of lime to neutralize.

"I found Ammonium Sulfate locally! A 50 pound bad for $20! "

Wow. I didn't realize how much prices had gone up. I used to buy 20 (maybe 25) lb bags for around $3. I switched to UCG (free), then planted native grasses and switched to nothing so I haven't bought any in about 5 years, but $20 for 50 lb means that it has tripled in price in 5 years.

This is not part of the world were AS is used much as soils are naturally acid. I had a hard time finding any here. And about price, many of the the sources that came up on Google were $8.95 for 4 pounds!

Then my AS was at least two steps removed from the manufacturer not like in the West were it is more common.