"What you described in your first paragraph infuriates me. Once a rose is out of patent, in my opinion, it should be allowed to survive."

Fine, be angry.....but the fact remains: these roses are David Austin's intellectual property and the company can do as it pleases with them. That includes eradicating a variety from commerce if they wish, its not your choice to make. This isn't about what you want, its about what David Austin Roses has legal rights to decide.

FYI I used to grow 'Pretty Jessica' and found it to be a runty plant that had no disease resistance, and compared to many other excellent roses of its style, it was unremarkable.

/me moves to stand beside Ingrid, awaiting the firing squad.

Oh, but it IS about what I want.
Please feel free to list these "many other excellent roses of its style" that you propose are far superior to 'Pretty Jessica'.

Randy

So if a rose is out of patent, can't a nursery just rename it and sell it? How about doing it like Prince? The "Rose Formerly Known as Pretty Jessica" or "Attractive Jessy" ;)

Is there a "generic" name for it like "AUSjes" or something like that?

Paul, are you saying that even if a rose is out of patent and is not being sold under the trademarked name, that it can still come under the original creator's control?

If so, that is a bit much. I know you are coming at this with the hybridizers' perspective. Could we theoretically have the descendants of George Lilley come after nurseries selling Pink Pet as Caldwell Pink?

Eric

Oh, forgot to add, when my rose gets big enough, I'll send cuttings to GW folks that want them. :)

Eric

If you want to make it your personal crusade to ensure the survival of 'Pretty Whats-her-name' then by all means make a hundred copies of it and give them to anyone who will take them. Just don't expect Austin to continue selling it cause obviously he feels its time to retire it in favor of better cultivars. You may not agree, and I encourage you to have your opinion, but its Austin's proprietary variety and he can do as he wants with it. That includes any and all attempts to stifle its commercial distribution.

"So if a rose is out of patent, can't a nursery just rename it and sell it? How about doing it like Prince? The "Rose Formerly Known as Pretty Jessica" or "Attractive Jessy" ;)"

That does happen to roses sometimes, but I think you will find the general consensus on the matter is that this is an unscrupulous practice and the industry frowns upon it. When I start patenting my roses (and yes, this is going to start happening very soon) I will take a very dim view of it should someone rename one of my roses just to circumvent the royalties and licensing process.

trospero - I am hoping you can educate me on this, as I am genuinely confused. Please excuse my ignorance - I am really trying to understand these issues.

"...should someone rename one of my roses just to circumvent the royalties and licensing process..."

I thought we were only talking here about roses that were "out of patent" - does the original patent holder still get royalties on these roses?

Assuming not, aren't we really just talking about the "trade mark" name issue on roses that are out of patent? I thought that was what all the discussion re "re-naming" was about, not royalties.

If you could please explain the "licensing" issue, I'd appreciate that, too. It is the nurseries that are licensed, not the rose? Would the creator of the rose "license" certain nurseries to sell them?

Thanks for your help - sorry to be so ignorant, but to follow this discussion I thought I would try & get some basic education.

Jackie

It's not my personal crusade Paul. You're getting kind of snippy in your replies. If that's what David Austin wants to do, fine. It will then be up to people who want this rose bad enough (I suspect few of those people aren't on this forum already) to get the rose as a passalong plant.

As far as the reason of retiring it in favor of better cultivars, whose to say it's a bad cultivar? (Well, I guess you.) It does great for me. One man's rose "dog" is another's star.

I think the real reason he's trying to "eradicate" it is that he has too many pink roses and he's trying to make make room for those he's currently pushing. Why else would he? He thinks it will cannibalize sales of his under-patent roses. As a businessman, of course he would want to do it, it's just a little sad that he's trying to squelch access to one of his own creations. You'd think he want to promote interest in his roses. Who knows? Maybe someone who bought Pretty Jessica and had a good experience would also buy some patented varieties and makes some coin for Dave.

So, can someone please explain, is the hybridizer legally entitled to any kind of money from the sale of their out-of-patent roses sold under a generic name? Why is there an expiration date on patents then? If it's a perfectly legal thing to do, why take a dim view of "circumventing" the process just because you (as a hybridizer) don't get paid and we (the consumer) pay less?

Please correct me if I'm wrong. I'll stick to my guns, but certainly don't want to argue a factually incorrect point.

Eric

If I'm getting "snippy" about this, its only because I am constantly amazed at the suggestion that nurserymen should simply rename roses in order to circumvent the wishes of the owner of said intellectual property: its unscrupulous and it will muddle the history of the rose in question. Just like so many other roses whose names are confused and lost to us now. There is no need to create more "Katy Road Pink"s. :-(

As I said, feel free to make as many copies of it as you want, just don't distribute it under its Trademarked name.

How is it unscrupulous if someone follows the letter of the law? It's not circumventing, it's following the law. The name is their intellectual property, but not the rose once it is out of patent.

Has the sale of all the other "AUS" generic-named Austins muddled their history? I think the rose scholars of the future will be able to connect "AUSjes" to Pretty Jessica with the established naming convention.

I could give a hoot about what it's called, but no, I wouldn't "distribute" it under its trademarked name if/when that violated the law.

Eric

As far as I know, using the name " AUSjess" is legal and also true to the identity of the plant. Right?
Linda

It may not make a difference but I did email David Austin US. The response I got suggested I look at Helpmefind to locate vendors. Maybe they don't have a clue there is a demand for this rose .

A few times Trader Joe's has discontinued items but brought them back when customers protested. Maybe these are not comparable companies or issues but there is one thing for sure: there is no chance of every effecting a company's policies when that company is not aware of it's customers preferences. Potential profits might be a consideration for them.

Eric, I like that ... the "Rose Formerly Known as Pretty Jessica" :-)
That's really thoughtful of you to offer cuttings to people when your rose is more mature. I plan on rooting cuttings of mine also when it's big enough.

Thanks, huttnem, I will email David Austin US too & share my thoughts with them.

Geez, trospero, you really have a short fuse, based upon the tone of your responses.
No one is trying to beat David Austin out of money that is rightly due him. I have great respect for him.
We are simply having a conversation about what a shame it is for a beautiful rose that does so well for some of us to be banished into extinction by its own creator.

I believe I'll begin referring to this rose simply as "Jessica" in double quotes, and drop the adjective David Austin attached to it. I don't think my friend David will mind. He doesn't like this rose anyway :-) Hope that's not disrespectful to you, trospero.

Randy

Well, well, well, it is certainly nice to see Paul (trospero) express his opinions. To clear things up, Paul is a Hybridizer of very beautiful roses, and there is where his sympathies lie.

I tend to sympathize with the consumers. The law is the law, and agricultural patent law states that someone like David Austin or Paul, has complete reproduction rights of their creations for twenty years. It used to be ten years, but the law got changed not too long ago in favor of people like David and Paul. Trademarking the name and then strong arming suppliers is simply a very obvious display of an effort to extend that control past the twenty year limit.

Lisa at Countryside tends to favor roses that are resistant to black spot disease. Yes, yes, she makes a few exceptions but for the most part she sticks only to vigorous, disease resistant, cultivars that grow well on their own roots and can handle prolonged heat and high humidity. That is what makes her collection so special. As much as I love PJ for its gloriously beautiful/fragrant cut flowers, I don't know how the rose's foliage will handle Countryside's Gulfside climate. On a positive note, Lisa does offer twelve proven varieties of English Roses with the AUSxxx names. I will Email her and ask if she will give AUSjess a try. PJ is also available own root from Vintage Gardens.

I should mention that I have a great deal of respect for David Austin. He is an innovator and changed the rose world for the better by in-my-opinion extending the Bourbon, Hybrid Perpetual, Noisette and Portland rose classes. I rank him right up there with Graham Stuart Thomas as one of the greatest rosarians. I just don't happen to agree with his actions on this particular matter.

I think I shall start referring to this rose among my rosarian friends as FREE JESSICA. Kind of catchy don't you agree?

Best wishes,

Patrick

Another thing I forgot to mention about AUSjess is the relatively low amount of thorns. Not completely thornless, like Reine des Violettes, but definitely a very gentle lady of a rose.

I've been following this discussion closely, but I don't really have anything to add of any significance other than I can see both sides of this clearly, which is that the inventors want their due and the rosers want their roses.

BTW, Pickering is offering PJ at the moment.

I prefer my Austins on 'Dr. Huey' though. Other breeds of roses do well for me on multiflora but the Austins are so sleepy on it. But that's beside the point.

Anyway best wishes to both sides.

I know I'll be requesting a cutting of "Free Jessica" from one of our friends who are offering on GW.

Thanks,
Rob
BC:)

I came home tonight to a box on the front box with 2 Pretty Jessica's nestled inside. They were 2-gallon roses, shipped wrapped in wet peat moss, and full of buds ready to burst into bloom. They're soaking and will be planted tomorrow next to France Info.

-Terry (doing doing the Happy Dance in the rainy Midwest and was inspired by everyone's photos to buy her)...thanks, everyone!

Patrick, that clears up a lot of things. Thanks for your input. By the way, I tried to get "Free Jessica" from Vintage, but they were out of them, and only offer them as "custom root", which apparently requires quite a long wait, perhaps up to 1 1/2 to 2 years. Good news though, a new "Free Jessica" arrived at my front door this afternoon from Rogue Valley Roses. So, now I have two of them, one growing in the garden and this new one for a patio pot. The band is a very small plant, but it looks healthy and I'm thrilled to have it. I'll post a pic of the new little band on the Antique Gallery, so people will know the rose is available but that it will arrive as a very small plant (I don't want anyone to be surprised that it's not larger).

Randy

Terry, I didn't see your post before I typed mine.
Whoo Hooo! Congratulations on your BIG new "Free Jessica" roses!

Randy

DUH AM!
Even though I usually get everything Randy recommends, and I love all of PJ's qualities, I was still on the fence about it. That is, before I read this thread. But after reading all the controversy, I just had to jump right in and get one. Just placed an order with RV. Hope the website is accurate and they still have some.

Great! PJ is also going to live in bellegallica's garden!
When I spoke to Rogue Valley on the phone, they said they had several PJ still in stock, so I hope you get one. Don't be surprised by the small size of the band you will get. Mine was very little, but also looks healthy, was packaged well, and their customer service was excellent. It shipped on time and arrived quickly. I posted a pic of the little PJ band on the Antique Rose Gallery ... I didn't want anyone to be surprised by its small size if they order one. I was just thrilled I got it and that it looked healthy. I can nurture it along.

Randy

Please note that "FREE JESSICA" will mature into a short plant of about 2-3 feet tall, so place her in front of something taller or in a big pot. Folks you are going to love this pretty little rose. BTW, speaking of little, the flowers aren't. Strangely, they are full sized, big-buxom-and globular on medium stems. This can look a little odd on such a petite plant but she does have great visual presence in the garden. Frankly, her charm factor is through the roof. The very first bloom will bewitch even the most jaded rosarian. And then there is THAT FRAGRANCE!!!

Please be aware that FREE JESSICA is a cool pink similar to many of the Old Garden pink roses. She will look incredible in cool garden schemes that features lots of whites, blues, purples, crimson and lilac hues.

Oh, and don't forget to spray about once every two to three weeks to prevent black spot. Folks in Texas and other arid areas where black spot isn't as much of a problem might wish to try her organic with just the Cornell Formula.

Lastly, if you are looking for a great warm pink English Rose then you really can't go wrong with RADIO TIMES, another excellent cultivar that seems to fallen by the wayside. Read Olga's comments above.

Enjoy,

Patrick

Patrick, you are really the worst "rose sales person" on this forum :-). When I read your descriptions I want to buy each and any rose you are talking about. Lucky me I got 'Pretty Jessica' as a band already!

Thanks for mentioning that her color is a cool pink. I was very happy to hear that, since I try to design part of my garden with cool colors exclusively and that is the area where 'Pretty Jessica' is supposed to find a permanent home.

For everyone, who wants to have her too: besides the sources already listed in this thread, Heirloom Roses seems to sell her still. I checked Heirlooms website yesterday and she was listed there. Please, be aware that their bands are tiny but healthy, at least the eight bands that I have received from them!

Put me in the firing line. There are a million nicer roses in the world than Pretty Jessica. My Wife of Bath is far more impressive, perhaps not in individual flowers, but the shrub is handsome and ccvered in bloom.
As far as the other stuff is concerned I'm not exactly sure what to think. I do respect Paul for his opinions as a hybridizer. There are so many roses that are out of patent being sold. To me it seems that if Austin is no longer interested in selling a rose and it's not patented that the AUSwhatever roses could be sold. It seems not right to sell something that he is still selling. Anyway I guess it's between what Austin wants and what is legal.

Pam, I'm glad you posted about your Wife of Bath since I received her as a substitute for Pretty Jessica. She's a little band with three pretty flowers on it and is charming but not spectacular. I'm happy to know that it will grow into a beautiful bush, since to me the bush is as important as the flowers.

Ingrid

Comparing FREE JESSICA to WIFE OF BATH is like comparing an Aston Martin to a Prius. The sports car comes with all the sports care woes: gas guzzling, high maintenance, etc., but it sure is beautiful. From the previous posts FREE JESSICA appears to require a little more work to look good, but you get those incredible flowers. WIFE OF BATH, the Prius, gives you better mileage but it's blooms aren't as spectacular, plus you have to put up with the myrrh fragrance, which I hate.

Oh I guess it's apples and oranges. I'm just not fond of tiny roses. Giving Jessica extra care brought her from 18 inches to 24.

To be honest, I've never felt drawn to DA roses. This will be my first. I think of them as "reproductions," and why buy a reproduction if you can get the original?

My recent favorite is a Vick's Caprice that reverted to the original Archiduchesse Elizabeth D'Autriche, a bonafide OGR. I don't think PJ can improve on that one.

But I'm always on the look out for a rose with great fragrance, form and pot-ability.

This whole situation reminds of the New Coke/Coke classic thing from years back. Remember that one?

I, too, can't understand why DA would want to prohibit nurseries from selling roses whose patents have run out. We live in a world where the vast millions will be known only to their families and be forgetten not long after death. To be so lucky as to have made a name and fortune bringing so much living beauty into an overpaved world ... If I were in his shoes, I don't think I'd need anything more.

"...the very first bloom will bewitch even the most jaded rosarian..."

That is definitely true for me, Patrick. When the first bloom opened on my "Jessica" rose, I immediately knew I'd have to have more than just one plant of her. And then my nose hovered near the bloom and it was love at first smell.
I want lots of china roses because they are so very fine here, but I also want some icing on the cake, and for me that finger-licking-good icing is "Jessica". If 'Souvenir de la Malmaison' grows well in a person's garden and they love her, they just might also fall for "Jessica". Those are both two of my favorites and for some reason Jess kind of makes me think of the grand old bourbon.

Organic, thank you for informing us that Heirloom is another potential source for this rose.

Pam, if you could visually compare my tiny suburban lot to your glorious, expansive property, you would understand how very important small rose plants with nicely scented, heart-melting blooms are to some of us. A rose like that in my little garden can kind of soften the reality that I probably will never live in a setting as beautiful as yours.

Bellegallica, you are correct. It would be hard for any rose to improve upon Archiduchesse Elizabeth D'Autriche. I've grown it for a few years myself and it's one of my very favorite OGR's. Pleasing in every way.

Randy

Randy and Patrick after I said what I did about small roses I thought about it for a while. You are completely right Randy. This place is huge and calls for large roses, besides all the emphasis on ramblers. I was thinking about Jessica in my friend Carolyn Sander's small garden where it would stand out beautifully. Also I remembered all the small roses I do have(and love!). Mostly they are in pots on the deck, but that is where they fit here.

I am tempted to try it, but I have my reservations. Some rose books say it is prone to rust and powdery mildew and I don't like roses prone to those problems. I don't spray. Also, they look tiny in Celeste's photo of the blooms. Three fit in her hand, just about and I tend to like big blooms. She is indeed "pretty" though and Molineux is quite enticing in his praise of her and makes me curious a bit.

le jardin of roses....
Don't judge by the size of my hands. Even though I am an adult, I don't have 'adult-sized' hands. I have tiny hands! (Maybe I should have had my hubby hold up the blooms...LOL). I would consider her blooms medium in size when fully-cupped. They will be larger as they open and expand. BTW, I do not spray my Jessica (I only spray roses that need it) and she has never had rust, powdery mildew or blackspot here. But all climates are different and apparently she likes mine....other places she may behave differently, of course. You are right,
she sure is pretty!

Celeste

'Pretty Jessica' has been an underperforming runt in my collection for 7 years now. It has yet to exceed 18" tall, and is always a two cane wonder. It will defoliate in as heartbeat from Blackspot, and if Blackspot doesn't do it in then Mildew and Rust certainly will. I can see no reason to get too excited about such a frail little wisp of a thing when cultivars like 'Mme. Caroline Testout' and some of the more recent Austin's are vastly better roses.

Other roses I find superior to 'Pretty Jessica'?

'Marchioness of Londonderry'
'Sharifa Asma' (the fragrance!)
'Climbing La France'
'Dame Edith Helen' (obscenely large, full blooms and great scent)
'Paul Ricault' (if only it rebloomed)
'Baronne Prevost'
'Duchesse de Rohan' with its incomparable fragrance.
'Marchesa Boccella', sturdy, reliable, excellent scent.

I could go on. So many superb pink, heavily scented roses with full blooms to choose from, and the plants are hardy, vigorous and generous of bloom. But if 'Pretty Jesica' does well for you, then by all means, treasure it.

le jardin of roses....I got to thinking about my reply and realized just now what an airhead I am! (I'm spending 24 hrs. a day caring for my mom who has Alzheimer's and I sometimes am not thinking clearly!). That photo showing the 3 blooms is NOT my hand! If it was my hand, one bloom would more than fill it up!
That's my son's friend's hand, who was admiring this rose.
I was taking the picture.

Sorry for sounding so dumb.

Celeste

Paul,

Perhaps the point of this thread is, or should be, that some roses are good or bad according to the climate they grow in. DA Ltd. is not familiar with how all their roses perform in every climate. Therefore it should be left to gardeners to decide which varieties are worth preserving in the places (if any) where they thrive.

People who try PJ want a small shrub. Being small can be a feature, not a bug. If you make a list of fragrant, very double, zone 5-hardy, fully repeating pink roses that stay at 24"-30", I doubt there would be a lot of competing varieties.

Celeste, thanks for clearing that up, because I thought they must be even smaller than I thought if she says her hand is tiny. I was starting to think Jessica must be a mini-rose if that was true, but if it's a child's hand holding them, then they are a decent size. I guess it would be a great container rose. I could see many pots on a patio looking charming with this Pretty Jessica. I live in an area where I have to avoid rust prone roses though and I'm not sure how healthy she would stay in zone 10.

le jardin....Actually my son is grown....the (adult) friend is tall and has large hands, so that is why 3 blooms look small in his hand. Just wanted to clarify. The blooms on PJ are not small at all but the size of the bush is. She is a very compact little shrub and would no doubt do nicely in a large pot on a patio.

michaelg....I agree with everything you said. And would like to add that in zone 4, almost all modern shrubs are
on the small side (except rugosas and Explorers) and we accept it. Being small is normal here. My well-fed Jessica is about 3 feet tall and fits right in. The only huge roses around here are the old European once-bloomers like the Albas. BTW, finding a modern rose to have all the attributes you described gets
even more difficult in zone 4. They are either very hardy but not fragrant, or fragrant and not hardy. We accept that we can't often have both in a REPEAT-blooming rose.

As I always state, I am in a cold zone, so I never presume that any rose I grow and love will always be the perfect rose somewhere else. And many roses won't cut it here that others rave about. But I certainly feel happy for them when their favorite rose brings them success and they want to share their positive experience with it, even if it was a dud here. There is a perfect rose for everybody. We just all have different needs and expectations. What we can all agree on is that growing roses brings us lots of pleasure and much to discuss!

Celeste

Celeste, your love and good-will for this petite beauty makes me have to give her a try. I don't know anyone who grows her around here. She is a rare one indeed, but what have I got to lose? What if she is a winner here too! I guess I'll never know if I don't let her grace my garden. I will find a frilly pot to put her in and see if she will fill my garden with her sweetness. Thank you for enabling me as well as many others with this little princess, Celeste!

My appreciation of Pretty Jessica is that it is a small rose and maintains a 2 ft tall bush that produces very fragrant decent sized blooms that don't need to lay in the mud. A compact bush thats not a miniature or a ground cover is a rare commodity.

le jardin, you will most likely love "Jessica". Her blooms are not small, they are medium sized, and luscious in every way. Can't say how her fungus resistance will be in your garden / climate, but she's healthy here, no spray.

Trospero, those are great, classic roses. No doubt about it.
They are also not even a little bit similar to Jessica:

'Marchioness of Londonderry' - its canes grow longer than is even typical for a hybrid perpetual. Not a frequent bloomer in most climates. Memorable blooms for sure though.

'Sharifa Asma' - foliage is really unusual-looking, not every one cares for it. Canes are much thornier than "Jessica", which is important for small spaces. The color of the bloom is no where near similar to "Jessica". Drop dead gorgeous, with scent as good as "Jessica", but otherwise, little similarity, other than it does bloom a lot and stays rather small.

'Climbing La France' - a climber? I don't even need to comment.

'Dame Edith Helen' - beautiful blooms, but they are often high pointed center in the hybrid-tea style. By comparison, "Jessica" looks like an old centifolia.

'Paul Ricault' - you said it ... if only it rebloomed. Excellent rose none the less.

'Baronne Prevost' - excellent blooms; again, those extra thorny canes.

'Duchesse de Rohan' - love this one; can't keep up with Jessica's frequent bloom cycles.

'Marchesa Boccella' - my favorite of the ones you mentioned. It's a larger plant than "Jessica".

I'm an huge fan of old roses, not nearly stupid enough to say Jessica is "better" than the old roses you listed. But to me, she's just as good, and is definitely vastly different from all of the ones you mentioned.

Randy

Question for Celeste:

Is that ONE plant in this picture? I count nearly 30 buds and blooms. I wouldn't be surprised, though, if it were only one plant. My "runty" SdlM bloomed more than it grew.

Here is a link that might be useful: Picture of Jessica by Celeste

bellegallica...
YES, that is ONE plant. I only have one Jessica. I would have more than one, but I have over 350 rosebushes and am sadly running out of room. Considering that the bush form is so compact, one would not expect so many blooms on such a small plant but mine is amazing. She is never without blooms and I can have as many as 40 at a time on her...
and she is only about 3 feet tall. Yet another reason why I love this rose.
And the bush is well-foliaged and healthy all summer...
more reasons.
Of course, I am known to 'spoil' my roses just a bit. LOL

Celeste

"Jessica" is a rock star in your garden, Celeste.
You are the reason why I bought my first Jessica.
And my first Jessica is the reason I bought my second.

Randy

Just have to give Celeste a standing ovation here on this thread. THANKS, Celeste, for enabling me about Pretty Jessica! I was fortunate enough to get five of these wonderful roses from Heirloom, and am looking forward to many years of enjoyment with them. I've already snipped a couple of little bouquets for friends...doing a little enabling myself! The compact size, health, color, rebloom and terrific fragrance are all things I appreciate, and the icing on the cake is the lack of thorns.

Another thing to consider is the petite size of the shrub. "FREE JESSICA" typically only grows 2-3 feet tall and the growth habit is upright. That means you can safety space the plants 18" apart. Three plants spaced into a triangle will yield a denser looking "bush". The non-stop repeat gives you a lot of bang for your buck.

I was interested in PJ, but never jumped on her until Heirloom had their free shipping sale a few weeks back. I received a tiny little 8 inch band, but I have it potted up and it is putting out new growth now. I'm anxiously waiting to see all my bands bloom at least once before winter just to get a taste. PJ, Sharifa Asma, and Evelyn are bands putting out new growth yet, but have yet to bloom. I'll be ecstatic once they do. I would also like to thank all of whom enabled me as well.

My tiny band of 'Pretty Jessica' from Rogue Valley Roses put out a bloom already. Even though it is so small, I wanted to let it produce a bloom, just to ensure that it was not a mis-labeled rose. Now that I know it's the real deal, I can let it get established. My older PJ that's planted in the garden is doing great. But I'm still not sure that only two PJ's are enough ... I feel another order coming on.

Randy

Because of Celeste I got Two last year from Hortico

I guess I have to collect 1 next year......a beautiful rose!

What happened to Michaelg? Anyone knows? I hope he is not sick, haven't seen his posts since last year Nov. He is an expert on roses.

Because of Celeste's Photos, I have been looking for Pretty Jessica. I ordered a couple from Hortico this spring, but it looks like they were mislabeled...