Ingrid, in another few years, you'll be able to write the primer on how to grow roses in hot, dry, water-restricted Southern California.

If it's any comfort, we, too, will have fewer roses over the coming years. Hopefully with more bloom and less water use.

Dreaming? Welllllll . . . maybe.
But it's a worth goal.

Jeri

Brava, Ingrid!
I think you're doing really well in your development as a gardener: you've realized that you have to adapt yourself and your plant choices to your environment, rather than the other way around. This is a critical step. In your shoes I would be researching native and other highly drought tolerant plants that will complement your roses; and you might also think about shrubs that will provide shelter to you and your plants from sun and wind, if the latter is a problem where you live. And yes, if you haven't been mulching seriously, now is the time to begin.
I can't say what will work for you as your conditions are different from mine, but you'll figure it out yourself. Good luck!!
Melissa

So-Riku, what did you pick out? I'm about to give up on climbers. They always live, you know, but end up back to the ground. I figure I could box them up and cover them with leaves, but I never get to it.
It is the dry air that kills the canes, not the temperature.
I tried Bleu Magenta(rosa multiflora) because it lives to zone 2. I tried Alchemist( rosa eglanteria), same outcome. I've tried Paul's Scarlet, Dr. Van Fleet, American Pillar, and Zephirine Drouhin.
I was noticing the cane on my baby Errinerung von Brod made it(rosa setigera, native to Michigan) so I got to wondering about Baltimore Belle.
My husband is promoting clematis. Honey, it would look so good blooming AFTER all my once bloomers.
Well, I have to say, all these climbers bloom AFTER my once bloomers and that was the idea.

"Kaylah" I think all of them are strangers in gardens south of the border. I went back to my adopted Canadian prairie roots and went for prairie privately hybridized roses plus some semi wild and woolly fellows this year and last.

Here is a sample of Canadian prairie ones I put in this year and last as I move towards them more.

Suzanne
Prairie Peace
Madeline's Choice
Halzedean
Beauty of Leafland
Carlos red
Kakwa
Butterball - Dr. Skinners not Austins
Louis Riel
Metis
Dr Merkeley
Wasagaming -2nd one
Will Alderman
Eos (Canadian west coast origins I think but a moyessi which is okay for hardiness but not to zone 2 to me)

Ahhh shoot forgot

Mrs John McNabb
Haidee

There are others but they have been gradually over the years put in ... however may I suggest you look at R. primula if you want complete hardiness and height and availability - yellow species but I would not hold it against it.

How hot does it get where you are, Ingrid?

Ingrid, I think all of us have gone through an adjustment period between expectations and reality -- it is just part of the process. One of the things that I have learned is to be patient and give the bushes more than three years if they are not overly diseased. And perhaps you need to work out a better understanding of watering in your area. Water deep and well and see what happens.

Personally, I think you should talk with Greg at Vintage and see what he suggests. He may have some ideas for you.

I always look forward to your progress.

Carol

Ingrid, we're in the same boat making different adjustments. Two and three years down the road we have a better vantage point of our realities and what is working and what is not. It bothers me, too, to take out unhappy roses but to do otherwise would be worse than silly. This is not our fault or the roses' fault for that matter. If we were in a "middle of the road" climate, this would be easy, but, alas, we're not so some experimentation is required.

Talking to Greg is a good idea even though his climate is not like yours. You have some shadier areas that might be worth a try with roses that aren't recommended for shade. I have been amazed at 'Arcadia Louisiana Tea'. She's in constant light shade until late afternoon right at the bottom of a tree obviously with competition from tree roots for food and water. Granted, she's not as big as others but she's green - no BS - and she's blooming albeit lightly at this point. The fortuitous thing about it is that I don't want a huge bush right there anyway. Though I know you took out your GaA, as an example some of mine are only getting 3 - 4 hours of sun and doing better in their 2nd year with the shade of a nearby tree rapidly encroaching even closer.

If you have clay, that's a great thing for deep watering. With my sand I'm trying other things. This week I'm putting down newspaper and mulch (pine straw) in my full sun areas. With your infrequent rains something like newspaper is supposed to keep the soil moist longer. Also, I'm using soakers which put the water under the newspaper and mulch. Hopefully, the newspaper won't be a negative when the rains start (at least I HOPE they'll start.)

In my case I'm going more with what's working. I've ordered 4 teas - Cochet relatives and Gen Gallieni, and Maggie and Prosperity are leaving, maybe Iceberg, maybe Pierre Gagnaire. As to Mons Tillier, maybe a move would be appropriate for him where there's a little more shade. And if I find a rose is doing wonderfully, I wouldn't mind having more than one - or several of it.

I also would not be averse to shade cloth in your situation. I'm sure you could make it look lovely. In fact, I would definitely investigate it. I know they make several degrees of sunblock-ability. It would also be benefical to humans who are in the garden and would conserve water. Also, I have found that moving them out of late afternoon sun helps - at least here. Already, the sun is excruciatingly hot, but Felicia and Francesca don't seem to mind it all day from 10:00 until 4:00. They really suffered in the sun all day until sundown. Their new situation is on the east side 6' from the house - that's because my property line is 8.5' from the house. But it's a good situation not too shaded with good hot sun for a shorter time.

I guess we all have to back up and regroup sometimes. It's called 'live and learn'. Keep up the good work, Ingrid. You'll find a way - one way or the other.

Sherry

Ingrid, I just looked at your garden photos (really pretty!) and noticed your "soil situation." Consider the source on this question (a know-nothing who especially knows nothing about So Cal), would it be allowed with your water restrictions and would it work to keep a really slow drip going on each plant? I don't use a drip system so again I'm ignorant. And also do you use those water retaining crystals? After I put down the newspapers the other day (naturally, after) I thought I could have put some of those crystals down around the rootzone to keep them from drying out between waterings. I'm also wondering if tall plantings on your west side would cool your garden in late afternoon - something that would shoot up quickly?

Sherry

Thank you most kindly for your wonderful support and comments. It really is heart-warming. In the past I've tried newspapers (they blow away in the wind and never stay covered up), drip watering (clogs up and didn't really help) and shade cloths for individual roses while they were small (that did help) but the reality is that I'm in a hot climate at about 2000 feet with boulders everywhere, even close to the house, and slopes that radiate heat, and very little humidity to keep the roses hydrated. Given those parameters, I think being very selective about the roses and mulching all I can are the best solutions. My soil is very porous so that doesn't help either. I probably should be grateful I can grow roses at all.

Gail, it's not so much the air temperature at the solar radiation at this elevation and the sun bouncing off boulders and hills that causes problems. It's not like living in suburbia which is a much more controllable environment. On the other hand I wouldn't trade the wildness and freedom of this place for anything. Moving Monsieur Tillier is an idea I hadn't thought of. I'm not sure I love it enough to keep it but will consider it. I feel very comfortable with the idea of keeping only the choicest roses and letting the rest go.

riku, I was stunned when I saw Suzanne at the top of your list. I had this rose briefly years ago (it didn't seem to like my climate) but I still remember the fragrance which was very evocative.

Thank you again, I so appreciate you all.

Ingrid

Reality check is right, quite a shock and money wasted. I was tempted to put most of it back in grass but will give it one more year.

I got 12 of those carrot thingies from Harriet Carter to screw on a 2 liter bottle for deep watering, on my to do list to cut out the bottoms so I can fill them easily either with the hose or otherwise. May pick up some more depending on how that goes this year, might not look very aesthetic.

Climate, I'm moving to hardier roses even if they aren't as showy. The others can stay if I don't have to mess with them too much.

You'd think with the mighty Mississippi one mile from me, water would be no problem because there is little fear of shortage in the foreseeable future, even drought years. Wrong although I doubt we'll ever need to ration. The water company has jacked up our charges through the roof. So it's not about shortage but price gouging or the treatment costs. So now slowly people are starting to get rain barrels here. I sure would if I had my gutters working right, already use some collected in buckets from a bad spot but it's unsightly, can't help it until I can get them fixed, if ever.

We have a few Californians moving here because of different things, not all job transfers. It's really odd, but people who have their last assignment in the area, tend to retire here if they don't go south. They like the lower cost of living, housing prices, the relative ease of getting around even in winter, the river, community events, plenty of things to do and see in spite of the winters. At the same time, some especially young are moving away because of better job opportunities.

Ingrid I understand how discouraging it can be to try and grow roses that really don't like a certain place.

My garden is a "survival of the fittest" and I've grown to love the roses that are happy here----

There are so many lovely "Teas" that I would love to have but they just don't do well here.

I hope you find the roses that can tolerate your conditions--

How about the old cemetary roses----they seem to survive under adverse conditions---

Wishing you the best-----

Florence

Ingrid, I am wishing you, that you find the roses that will do well in your garden. I certainly understand that this is a challenge, but well worth trying.

Almost for sure, I have the same reality check ahead of me when we really get water rationings here in July! Talking about that, how do you water your roses? Since you said that drip irrigation doesn't work, do you do it with sprinklers or by hand with a hose?

I water with a hose because sprinklers waste way too much water and encourage weeds. My hope is that with heavy mulching I can cut down on the number of times I water. Theoretically it makes sense and I should find out this week since we're supposed to have 100+ temps by Sunday. I'm sure that many of my roses will do fine; I just have to find out which ones they are.

Ingrid

Ingrid, this is going to sound silly or maybe not. In my back garden I had a few beds that blended off into the gravel with no edging, and invariably the wind/rain/watering moved the mulch away from the outside several inches of bed exposing the soil which dried out terribly. Well, I had some extra bricks so I laid them around one bed (just laid flat) and filled in the bed with mulch (oak leaves in this case). That gave the plant 2 inches of mulch protection it didn't have, and it's not too likely the leaves will blow out. I did the other bed yesterday with cobbled bricks that I had to put on edge. They don't match the other bricks but so what. At least now DdB will have her toes covered with mulch to stay nice and cool.

Sherry

I, too, sometimes feel that I am trying to grow plants that don't naturally do well here - roses - because of the heat and humidity. There are definitely ones that do well, of course, the Earthkind varieties, chinas, teas, knockouts........but even of those, most will develop disease at some level. There are very few that remain "disease free" and since I tend to like plants that look well in the landscape, it is a problem for me to have bushes that have lost a lot of leaves or are covered in the bottom with yellow BSed leaves or look scraggly. I'm talking about when there is over 1/3 of the bush to be affected, not when just a few leaves lost.

So I've started spraying again. *sigh*

Lynn

Lynn, I pick off those bottom yellow leaves. About a foot of clear space seems to discourage the growth of fungus. A really good mulch and deep watering seem to alleviate most problems. I have a water wand with a lever that flips the flow off or on. I plunge it into the soil a couple of inches and let it stream deep into the plant from around the dripline or a few inches away from the center. They seem to do much better for me than with squirting from 6 feet away. I plant the more delicate or fryable roses in the shade of large teas.
la

Sherry, your idea about the bricks is definitely a good one and I'm going to give it some thought. In my case it will probably be individual roses, because certain roses have that problem continuously while others aren't affected. It's really annoying when your laboriously applied mulch heads off to the next county when there's a high wind. Thank you for the tip.

Lynn, after reading your post I felt pretty fortunate since I don't have the humidity and disease issues you're faced with. If there were no roses I could grow without spray I would reluctantly give up roses altogether, but surely there must be a few. Best of luck to you.

Ingrid

The local paper says we've had .46" of rain in May (that would all be in the last 3 days.) Not much but I'll take it. I was VERY surprised yesterday when I moved the pine straw that I put down on Tuesday to plant some annuals to find the soil moist (this was before half the total rain had fallen) AND zillions (well, several dozens) of tiny (1/4 inch long) worms sitting under the mulch on top of the soil. (I can't find anything about what these might be; hopefully, they're good worms. They're not moving much.)

I fully expect my roses to "slow down" in August, but I'm hoping they won't "shut down" like last year and go leafless. I'm hoping the pine straw will help a lot along with resituating the soakers earlier this spring. Like others have said, it's hard to bear bushes in my front yard that are ugly and bare, but people up north do it all winter long so if I have to sit tight for a month or so with naked Teas and Chinas then so be it. The rest of the year they're mostly beautiful. The trick is getting them mature and building the soil to support them. Hopefully, I'm on the right road. At this point I can't see myself taking them out. I will take out individuals that don't like it here, but to stop rose gardening at this point would be a defeat of huge magnitude.

A local Rosarian with 400 bushes (moderns & OGRs) wrote in this month's Society newsletter that 2 years ago he stopped spraying from mid-May until just after Labor Day (due to the strain of doing it in the heat & humidity of our summer). He listed several (mostly OGRs but also Polyanthas & Shrubs) that defoliated only 25% or less and also those that defoliated 75% or more. So certain roses can be grown well without spraying even in hot, humid Central Florida. We simply have to be smart in our choices and not expect unreasonable results from the wrong roses. And from personal experience Earthkind may or may not be a smart choice in Florida with our different climate from Texas.

For example, Rosette Delizy last year (1st year) seemed to keep a lot of yellow leaves. This spring not so. She is green - and growing just as much if not more. So age definitely is a factor. And I'm seeing a lot of Knock-Outs in other landscapes now with a lot of yellow on them - a lot more than my OGRs.

So, Ingrid, we do have two challenging things in common - porous soil and hot sun. All I know to do is to amend the soil - so that it is less sand and more organics & topsoil - and keep it as cool as possible. Rose roots don't do well in hot soil (I think somewhere around 80 degrees, I forget though). I see a lot of rocks in your photos. Can you anchor newspaper down with rocks or with the bricks that you may get? It may give your garden an unusual look to have rocks scattered all over it but it may be an answer.

La, when I handwater, I'll try to use you method with wand where I don't have soakers. But (and I don't know if I'm right on this) I think it also makes sense to "cool" the mulch a little by dampening it some, but I may have the luxury of being that extravagant since I'm not on water rationing.

Sherry

Sherry, it would be a terrible shame to even consider removing the beautiful rose garden in front of your house. I think it's going to be absolutely beautiful as it matures. If a certain rose doesn't do well you can always research what a good replacement might be. I also hope your rose garden will act as a kind of inspiration for your neighbors, and encourage them to grow antique roses. I'm also trying to amend the soil and I think it definitely makes a difference, as does the alfalfa meal. We just have to be smarter gardeners, and we well succeed.

Ingrid