Fungal diseases here are annoying but not a serious problem, so I can't give you any practical advice. All I can say is, best wishes in figuring out how to grow a healthy, nontoxic garden!

Melissa

Sammy,

I refuse to spray my roses. I have to admit I must have a significantly high tolerance for blackspot/leafloss. But, my roses and my gardens in general bring me infinite joy. I'm a gardener, not a rose exhibitionist. I'm a gardener, not a landscaper. I love working in my gardens, and I appreciate the flaws in the roses as well.

Currently I'm trying over 500 different varieties of roses all grown completely NO SPRAY. Do I have BS?...yes... Do I have leaf loss?.... yes Do I have an enchanted garden that nearly defies description?...I believe so.

If a rose can survive and bloom in my garden situation and bring me joy...I'm happy to have it in my garden.

I disguise the roses' faults with plenty of catmint, clematis, honeysuckle, and a host of other companion plants.

More practically.... some of my roses will get hit by blackspot at this time of year (during or after their first flush), lose a lot of leaves, then grow new leaves that will be much more disease resistant. I think once the temperatures stay high enough, the BS, doesn't like it. So, there is a time when some of the roses don't look as good as they do at other times.

I don't grow many hybrid teas or floribundas. I also don't "try" roses that seem to be disease prone from the research I do.

I am also staying away from chemical fertilizers (10-10-10, Miracle Gro, etc.) and relying on manure, alfalfa, and compost. I believe that if I feed the soil, not the plant, we'll all be happier.

I've got loads of beneficial insects, hummingbirds, butterflies, lizards, geese, etc. throughout my yard, and each brings me much joy.

If you want the florist looking long stem roses, don't come to my yard.

I hope this helps some. Create the garden that makes you the happiest. I love mine...indigenous groundcover, BS, canker, and all..

Robert

Catsrose, thanks, but I hope to stop spraying. I proabaly was not that clear in my post.

Eibren, I appreciate your post. I was so tired last night, and was rather discouraged by my garden, that I had to come back and read your post to fully appreciate it. I agree with you completely. I really think that the power of industries that control us is out of hand. I have become very suspicious with every pill that I swallow. (I would follow this thread of thought more, but would lead myself and others into a political discussion that is not appropriate here.) I am not sure that most rugosas are grown well in our heat, but I might look into them more.

Ingrid, your garden is outstanding. Thank you.

Marlene, we have many warnings here about using any kind of oil. I have not used Neem oil, but horitcultural oil isn't usually recommended because of the heat. Even in early spring, we can suddenly have some hot days. Do the oils hurt the birds or beneficials in any way?

Thonotorose, thank you.

Melissa, I am so glad that you are posting from Italy. Your input gives us more of an international flair.

Robert, I always watch your posts. Are you still teaching? You teach Spanish too, don't you? I am now at the point where I have to develop a mind set that even though I work hard, I can accept diseased leaves. I don't know how to handle thrips, though. You say that you don't grow many hybrid teas and floribundas. What about the Buck roses? Those have been my most recent investment, and I hope they will be a success. The roses that are the most outstanding in my garden are my 5 Prairie Stars, and they may have to be replaced next year.

I would love to have some suggestions of other companion plants that would go well in my yard. I love Homestead Purple Verbena. My Dianthus are beautiful, and those two come back each year, as do the salvia. What are some others that you like in your yard? I also have some Rosemary and Lavender that I wanted to plant in with my roses for the sake of variety.

I would appreciate any suggestions that you have. Thanks for the posts.

Sammy

Last year was my first adventure into roses again after a long time. My idea of growing roses then as a working single mom with three small children was plant them and watch 'em grow (or die), don't even remember watering except a first app. Some did ok for years.

Now I do a lot more, feed, amend soil, water as needed, prune, deadhead, etc. Even my heirloom roses I rooted myself but a couple are subject to BS and mites. BS was terrible last year.

So I read up, weighed the pros and cons and went and got some Bayer Advanced last night. I just can't drag out sprayers, this stuff is easier to mix and apply and if it costs a little more, I don't care. If it seems to adversely impact the birds, bees or environment, I'll have to rethink things.

I read where people had tried the organic remedies you mentioned and others to no effect and went to moderate spraying. I don't want to choose my roses solely based on resistance to this or that. Maybe that is selfish, but there is no substitute for a rose like Veilchenblau, and it got BS even though they recover, it's nasty. Thrips and mites ruined some other ones and stunted their growth. I had enough of it and will at least try this but not on the first-year ones nor the very few that don't seem suseptible to whatever.

As to deliberately marketing things that make you have to buy more stuff, I accept that to a point, but I do not believe honest growers and hybridizers do it deliberately. Indeed, they would strive for resistance, but when you hybridize a rose it is up for grabs what its genetic makeup will bring on. It is more the law of supply and demand. If people want a certain rose, that is what drives the market. We wouldn't have some of the roses we do if it were strictly survival of the fittest.

I am going to review my meds my next appointment because I don't want any imported ones, at least from a certain country, because I trust our quality control more, but it's not infallible, and there is always an inherent risk in everything. It's like saying they create diseases so they can market a drug. I don't believe that, but the legal drug use in our country has skyrocketed which does make me wonder why we have so many pharmacies in proportion to the population increase which does not compute.

Dear Sammy,
I'm in my tenth year of no spray rose gardening. Two strategies that improve my success are as follows:
1) order from Countryside because she selects for BS resistance. Ashdown offers mostly BS resistant roses but there are some newer English roses mixed in that haven't been tested in a hot, BS ridden, red clay soil garden like mine.

2) Give away lots of roses. Roses make great teacher appreciation gifts, house warming gifts, etc. Casual gardeners don't care about 25% BS, they're thrilled to have an easy care rose that blooms a lot. There are so many roses I'd love to try and sunny space is at a premium in my yard so the spotty ones are potted and gifted.

Companion plants are also a joy, I'm currently enamored with columbines and reblooming bearded iris.

I'm in my third year of antique roses and haven't sprayed yet. I think it is as Robert said, you have to just embrace their "imperfections." Some of mine get quite a bit of blackspot, but it doesn't seem to hurt the plant's ultimate health. Perfectionists who can't stand a single black spot on a single leaf probably shouldn't try the no-spray method. Since I'm far from a perfectionist, I'm very happy with not doing it! Good luck!

I've been growing roses no-spray for 12 years and over time I have picked and chosen ones that are mostly resistant -- though there are a few that I've kept that will BS & defoliate but are vigorous enough to thrive and are so special in other ways I can't get rid of them. I grow a lot of old roses -- gallicas, albas, moss, damasks and portlands for this reason. I also have a lot of bourbons, hybrid perpetuals, and English roses which tend to be less resistant because of their china and tea rose hybrid blood but I have good varieties nevertheless, or I put up with some defoliation in the summer knowing that they will rebound in fall. As others have said, my garden isn't perfect especially in July/August. Many rambling roses are healthy with multiflora or wichuriana derivation, and some climbers as well.

Sammy, you're right, neem oil and perhaps any oil should not be applied on hot sunny days. Neem's not perfect - although considered not harmful to mammals and most beneficials I've read cautions about not spraying it where ladybug larvae or bees are present. I thought it was totally biodegradable and non-toxic but there are obviously some issues with it. I have a problem with thrips and botyris every late spring. Next year I plan to try some of the new products Ashdown is distributing. They have a horticultural oil that is not petroleum-based (and I don't think it's neem), plus they are selling a non-toxic insecticide. I understand the company that make the products Ashdown carries is working on a formula for thrips. Hopefully that will be available next year! Anything that might harm birds or beneficials, I will not use. Until you asked and I looked it up, I didn't think about Neem's possible impact if applied carelessly. But still it has much less of a negative environmental impact than its chemical, toxic equivalents. There are alot of harmless alternatives to poisons, but of course people complain they are not as effective. So what becomes a factor is how perfect you want your garden to be. In spring when everything is heathy, I am happy and grateful. I have come to expect less than stellar health and appearance in summer. But it is so horribly hot here I don't spend much time in my garden after June anyway!

Great goal, Sammy. My roses are all babies but I am going no spray also. If I have to be constantly messing w/ chemicals in order to have roses, then I will just not have roses. Too many other things to do, too little time.. I also don't want to kill off my garden spiders, lizards, and other garden visitors. I have found other garden webbers lists of really BS resistant roses very helpful, especially ceterum, robert, and carol and sandy- all in hot southern areas.
As for companion plants, spider wort. I decided since the spiderwort wanted to multiply that the rose garden would be a good place to plant them- cover up knees, provide some shade to the clematis and peonies. I also want to plant some herbs there, and I did stick some basil at the front. I hope by planting other types of plants to make the roses less of a target for Japanese beetles and other pests. Good luck w/ changing your garden over to healthier roses. Brandy

Many of the Buck varieties are BS resistant but so far of ALL the ones I've grown, Quietness is a standout. Totally healthy, so vigorous, and blooms its head off! Distant Drums isn't bad either. New in my garden are two roses that earned an ADR designation, the European equivalent of EarthKind-- Lavender Dream and Lions-Rose (aka Lion's Fairy Tale). So far so good on those two! Kordes website and Roses Unlimited's printed catalog both indicate which roses are ADR--

With all this rain we have been having this season, my yard might as well be renamed black spot central. I haven't sprayed since last season and it shows. In a weak moment, I just couldn't take the ugliness anymore and put down some of the Bayer 2-in-1 which is supposed to have fertilizer and stuff to prevent BS. It's probably as bad for the environment as spray, and I feel so guilty using it, but maybe it will help some. This thread had given me renewed strength, however, to stay strong. Thank you all!

I grow herbs with my roses too, they really seem to complement each other so nicely. Shasta daisy's look pretty too, and they are tall enough to cover nekked legs. I just throw everything together kinda cottage garden style.
Some other under-plantings that go nicely and didn't see mentioned already are : daylily, phlox, salvia, sweet william, coneflowers, zinnias, and dianthus.

Liz

Glad to hear that you are into a no spray garden. I think many rose hybridizers are beginning to breed for true disease resistance. Perhaps more will if the public demands it.

I live in the very hot, very humid coastal plain of North Carolina. Most hybrid teas here are blackspot waiting to happen! I have grown roses both ways. Eight years ago I decided to go "no spray." I have Eastern bluebirds nesting in the garden, many hummingbirds, other song birds and butterflies which I do not wish to harm---as well as me, the sprayer!

Most of the Hybrid Tea's I had then simply spent their time shedding spotted leaves and growing new one without energy left over to bloom. Now my garden consists of lovely old teas, a few Buck roses, Belinda's Dream and several others who are being tested for the EarthKind designation, and a few select Hybrid Teas. Naga Belle from India has performed well for two years; this year I am trying Milestone and Kordes' Buxom Beauty. These were recommended by Pat Henry of Roses Unlimited. I select roses that will be good cut and enjoy them inside.

Some of my roses do get a little black spot from time to time but it does not seem to slow them down. Enjoy the ease of no spray roses!

The biggest problem is California. Yes-yes it is a lovely state with lovely people but that is where the "rose industry" is located. The climate is Mediterranean with dry hot summers and cool wet winters. Perfect growing conditions for roses with minimal disease pressure. About the only fungal problem they face is powdery mildew and it is consistently more responsive to anti-fungal sprays. Then there is the much vaulted Hybrid Tea, which are breed specifically for exhibitors and florists. Large high centered flowers in bright colors on long straight stems, followed by extended vase life and quick repeat bloom are what hybridizers breed for. Things like disease resistance, good vigor, strong roots, and ease of progation (which is a sure sign of a strong rose) take a back seat. Is it any wonder that many modern roses are complete failures as garden plants.

Most damaging of all is the publics misconception of what a rose should look like. They have been so brainwashed by florists and like that they think a rose must have a bud resembling a sharpened pencil in order for it to be a "real rose". How many times I've tried to sell a newbie on a shrub rose like KNOCKOUT only to have them look at me like I'm crazy. They want roses like they see in florists or the cabbage type they see in my own yard. Roses that they neither have the knowledge or skill or patience to grow correctly. I'm always quick to point out that the English Roses they see in my yard require a good bit of work. Skip the spraying, careful pruning, soil amendment, fertilizer/watering time tables, and you are screwed.

Just my 2 cents worth,

Patrick

I have a no spray garden. I don't normally get blackspot on my roses here in California. The only times I would get them is from new roses that I purchased from the local nurseries. I found out that these roses were sprayed at the nurseries; thus, when I brought them home, they would mysteriously develop black spot from the lack of spraying on my part. I would just separate these plants in their containers from my other roses, let the leaves fall off, and prune the plants back. They always do fine and will eventually adjust to not being sprayed constantly.

I think that if we spray, we mask the problems and diseases, and the roses do not develop a resistance to diseases. I also dispose of roses that tend to develop diseases. I have a couple of Poulsen floribundas that are basically disease magnets; they will be going into the dumpster.

Jeff

I would answer much as Robert does. Use the roses as landscape plants, and avoid monoculture. A variety of plants encourage a diverse population of good and bad bugs. Meadows are full of bugs, but rarely eaten to the ground. For varieties, I would stick close to earthkind, ADR, and Buck roses initially, although that is hardly an exhaustive list. Species roses are also an under appreciated variety. For some reason we don't mind if an azealea blooms once a year, but a rose is somehow less in value if it only blooms once. In some ways its real easy- just stop spraying, and let nature take its course. The hard part is watching some roses have blackspot and bugs. Spend more time on soil replenishing, watering and other cultural needs. Own root is fine for many, but if you have one that needs the vigor of a rootstock, then go with one for your area: Dr Huey for alkaline soils, multiflora for acidic, and fortuniana for real sandy/acidic warm climates.

My garden is defintely a "survivor of the fittest " garden --- Many years ago I had a lot of HT's and had to spray to keep them alive---then one day it dawned on me that all I was smelling was a chemical smell---What is the first thing you do when you see a rose--"smell it"---then I found GW and learned a lot about the beauty of OGR's etc that have leaned to survive under adverse conditions.
I have roses that bring me great joy and if some lose their leaves ---so be it------they will come back if I'm patient.

Florence

Sammy-

I grow my roses as no spray. The only rose I will really break down and spray is Abe Darby. The rest of my roses must stick it out. A couple of things to keep in mind:

Some of my most disease resistant roses are low on fragrance. Its a trade I am willing to make.

Most of my roses do better with each year of age. I see the best resistance in roses over 3 yrs old. Its worth the wait.

I am willing to tolerate some BS and defoliation in my roses. I keep the roses which dont stay covered in BS or completely defoliate.

Try it but remember that you will need a bit of patience and tolerance at first.

I would disagree that a systemic like Bayer 3-in-1 is as harmful as spraying- not only does it stay in one spot and not waft all over the neighborhood, (and doesn't cover everything with that laboratory stink), but the insecticide component confines itself to the critters that are actually munching on your rose, not the many innocent (and beneficial) passers-by, especially bees. Moreover, a systemic is the only antidote I have found for thrips, which spray just doesn't reach (if you've never had a whole flush turned into brown blobs by these little buggers, I envy you).

Having said that, I don't overdo it. BS is such a virulent, even deadly threat here that I dose all my roses at the start of the season- but only repeat on an as-needed basis, which usually is only once more if at all.

I've simply adjusted my taste to make a no-spray garden a reality. The back third of my garden also gets shady mid day, double trouble here in coastal VA. Lyda Rose, The Fairy, Darlow's Enigma, Secret Garden Musk Climber, Wild Spice rugosa, Basye's Purple, Seafoam, Blush Noisette are all very healthy. Lyda Rose sheds a few leaves and Sombrueil (despite morning sun) sheds a LOT. To expand the range of color I've added two plants of Vanity-- clean so far but not sure how it'll handle the shade. Companions include penstemon, peach-leaved bellflower, purple oxalis, verbena, salvia, and thyme. Garden is new and going forward I'll be adding companions.

Sammy, for what it's worth, if I were selecting roses for my garden with only one thing in mind ... resistanct to blackspot ... I would grow only china roses. Cramoisi Superieur, Spice, Ducher, Mutabilis to name a few. That's just what is the best adapted for my climate/soil, and I think your's in Oklahoma would not be that different from here.

Randy

I need to respond more, but am terribly busy outside and in. I am so grateful for the encouragement and support. I love to think about the little hummingbird, and the cardinals that live in our yard. My Mother's Day present was two hummingbird feeders.

I know that I am not alone in finding this time of year overwhelming.

Thank you, everyone, and I am open to any responses.

Sammy

hi, Sammy,

A companion I really like is the Texas sage, "Wild Thing." It makes a nice clump with red blossoms; blooms all summer. I use a lot of salvias and veronicas, white and purple. Nepeta or catmint is great also, long blooming purple. I grow Walker's Low, but there are other kinds too.

Shasta daisies are great as is sweet alyssum. I grew both of those from seed. I am just learning about iris and lilies types and have only a few kinds. There are so many wonderful perennials.

Sammy, Do you have Morning Has Broken? I was just admiring mine today. It is in its third year and has the loveliest semi-double yellow blooms. I have never sprayed it in the three years it has been here. Good one for your no-spray garden.

Kate

I've been gardening with roses for only a few years, but I've already gone back and forth on this issue several times. It's also been a hotly debated topic here and on the regular rose forum, and the organic rose growing forum.

Here in southern Louisiana everything grows like a weed--including blackspot.

This year I'm thinking of going totally no-spray, for much the same reasons as have already been presented, and then some.

One analogy that has come to me recently was in thinking of how many times I've heard other people say--and I've probably thought and said it myself before--that if they ever became so ill that the only thing keeping them alive was artificial life support, they'd rather be taken off and allowed to pass on.

If the only thing keeping a hybrid tea (or any disease prone rose for that matter) alive is constant spraying of toxic chemicals....

That said, what is disease prone for one climate is not for another. If you decide to go no-spray, you're definitely not alone. Make contact with other no-spray growers with your climate and find out what is truly disease resistant for them.

You could also try out a small number of varieties each year. Keep the ones that work for you and get rid of the ones that don't, or let them die slow deaths--survival of the fittest. You'll be left with varieties that can truly make it in your garden without spraying. The money you lose on trying out disease prone plants would have been spent on chemicals anyway trying to keep them alive.

And as others have pointed out before, it amazes me that with so many other amazingly beautiful plants to fill our gardens with that we spend so much time, energy, and money on unworthy roses.

I don't know if that's going to help you. But it's my new attitude, for what it's worth.

Good luck!

What is wrong with using Round Up in a "No Spray" garden? I just read Wikepedia and their site, and see nothing wrong with it, but do not want to harm the birds and bees -- that means not to harm the worms.

We are still wrestling with the storm damage and trillions of little branches far in the back of our property that are covered with weeds and grass.

Sammy

I am so overwhelmed with work to do. Is there a way to get rid of ants that is not toxic to wildlife? We have areas where we put bags of mulch, and it gets loaded with ants.

Yesterday in one of my last beds before I go to the back of our property, there were two very large old roses that had new and old sections of the rose. A I broke off the old section, ants poured out of the dead part of the rose. In these cases the roses were old and could never survive a no spray program, and I dug them up. When ants are inside the rose, is the whole plant usually gone?

In paths or inside a bed is there anything that will kill ants and not harm wildlife?

I used to use Max Force. Do you know if it would be toxic? It is a bait. It is hard to tell if ant stuff is working since you always expect ants anyway.

Sammy

Sammy, best wishes to your on your conversion to a "no-spray" garden.

I think there are many unanswered questions about the safety of Roundup herbicide and its effects on human health.

As far as "soil health" the Wiki article included this:

"Roundup has been shown to increase the disease rate in the crop following a sprayed crop, suggesting damaged soil flora. [31]"

Well, the most important aspect of not spraying pesticides is to develop a healthy ecosystem. And a vital part of that is encouraging health soil flora. Without a "living" soil no garden is "healthy".

Ask your inner intelligence if spraying herbicides around your property really seems like a good idea.

Bill

I too have a no-spray garden, and I am evaluating the roses that will stay (and propagate) or go. So far Quietness is disease-free for me, a light pink with a nice fragrance. Heritage, Gertrude Jekyll, Fields of the Woods, Lamarque, Julia Child, New Dawn, Westerland, Clotilde Soupert, and Lover's Delite are pretty disease resistant so far.

I have yet to see a hummingbird sip the dew off a rose leaf in my garden, but I still can't bring myself to spray. With apologies to Joni Mitchell, give me spots on my roses but leave me the birds and the bees please.

Bill, thank you for the "heads up" about Round Up.
The back of our yard ends with a hill that goes down to a creek. We have so many weeds there that I was still hoping there would be a way to use something to get rid of them. The slope is too steep for a lawn mower, and my husband should not try to control a weed eater on that slope.

I called the number on the Round UP container, and got the full scoop on Round Up. It has not been tested on animals. It should not be sprayed on any forms of wildlife. (I asked if I should remove the earthworms first, but she didn't understand me.)

What I spray should not kill a bird, but if the bird dined on worms in that area more than once she did not know of it would kill them because it has not been tested on animals. I told her it was advertised as being used in zoos, so surely it is tested. She said it wasn't.

Last year I used Preen in some beds. Now in two beds there are none of my beautiful columbines, and also the larkspurs are gone.

The good part is that some roses that I thought had died are coming back.

My school is out this Friday --- it has taken forever because of our power outage and storm last winter. Once I have the time I want to show some pictures, and start a diary so I can find out exactly what I must lose, and what can remain.

I have two hummingbird feeders up, but the hummingbirds have not returned. I hope they did not eat someone else's Round Up.

Sammy

I have two hummingbird feeders up, but the hummingbirds have not returned.

*** Sammy, Hummers are migratory, so their numbers fluctuate with the seasons, and the weather.
The little ingrates sometimes stay away for a long period of time.
We've had as many as 35 at a time circling at our feeders, and as few as one or two.
Commonly, we lose our entire hummingbird community if we are gone for more than a couple of weeks.
They just move on to the next free meal, I guess. :-)
Eventually, tho, they do seem to find their way back.

Today in Southern California, the weather is cold, dank, and in many areas stormy,
but the Sparrows and Finches are very busy in the garden.

Jeri

Jeri, do you still keep the hummingbird feeders full or with some food all the time? I think the directions say to wash them and change the food each week. Do you do that? It seems silly to do it if there are no birds to eat it.
Sammy

Sammy, if it sits too long, it will get cloudy. And in fact, it can ferment, and that is very bad for the hummers.

Most of the time, they eat it before it goes bad -- and we reduce the number of feeders in winter, when our hummer population goes down. But yes, DH changes them off, and washes them well before adding new nectar.

You could fill the feeders only part way, while the birds are inactive. But FWIW, I think our population drops in very bad weather. And the Lord knows, OK has had some pretty bad weather just lately!

Jeri

Sammy, you can definitely go no-spray. It will take some trial and error, and perhaps some tolerance for a few blemishes here and there, as Randy does. A few yuckky leaves can be picked off. There is no such thing as a disease free rose, but there are certainly many of them that get very little to almost no disease. (In fact, all plants are living things, and none are "disease free". There is no such thing in any living organism).

Do some research as to what roses and other plants have few pest problems and thrive in your area. That is a good place to start. On the other hand, don't be afraid to experiment with a rose that others may have a little difficulty with if you really love it. I have 3 "older" hybrid teas. They are Tiffany, Mr. Lincoln, and Queen Elizabeth. I also have 2 Don Juan climbers. I do not spray those and they are very healthy and thriving. I feed the soil and I pick off the leaf or two that get a little blackspot. The majority of my other roses are antiques.

It is also important to site the rose correctly. They can usually tolerate some late afternoon shade, but they are sun lovers, and not planting them in enough sun will only lead to disappointment. They should also be properly spaced apart and not crowded.

I am also finding that as I mix in some native wildflowers, daylillies, etc. that there is more diversity and interest in my evolving garden, and way fewer pest problems. I hardly had any thrips this year, and the lady bugs have taken care of the aphids for me.

Since I quit spraying, I have a wonderful balance in my yard, and virtually no pest problems to complain about. Pests come and go, but do not become rampant in a balanced environment. Nature is wondrous.

By the way, I have no qualms whatsoever removing a rose or other plant that looks a mess ALL the time. Bushes that are continuously defoliated is not a pretty sight. I just figure it is not suited to my climate.

Sandy

i agree that hybridizers need to work on creating dummy proof roses. most people i know that garden will grow everything but roses , cause they are gun shy. if roses became as much fuss as a cedar tree, everyone would have one. they really aren't that mystical; i have forty roses, and only one HT. i just don't think that they are that nice, in comparison to other types. unless you are a florist, what is the point? grow roses that will survive armageddon.( there are some), not some prissy HT.

Has anyone else tried a 0.5% baking soda solution? (From Rodale's Chemical Free Yard & Garden.) We used to do it when we first started rose gardening and it helped with both BS and PM. Then we got lazy and noticed most of our roses didn't get much BS or PM anymore. We've moved and our new rose garden is in its second year, but we don't plan on spraying. I don't know what to do about thrips except a systemic -- perhaps one could prune the buds for a season :) and deprive them of habitat.

Mike

Have any of you successfully found a way to remove grass, and keep it out of your garden ----- and not used a chemical?

I have too many ants. Any suggestions? They are odorous ants, and little black ants. I am looking at getting some more bait. Should that hurt the ecosystem in the yard? What I used in the past was Max Force.

Sammy

Sammy, the best way I've found to get rid of grass is to dig out the sod (roots and all) and then compost the removed grass. This sod-busting is a lot of work, I will freely admit.

If you have an area that's not easily accessible (or if hard physical labor is not an option) you could "Solarize" the grass by first watering really well and then covering with black plastic sheets for a couple months and letting it bake in the hot sun. this method, from what I understand, is a little rough on soil flora too, but I'd rather have soil recover from being solarized that being sprayed with herbicides.

Good wishes with your garden!

Bill

Sammy, I'm not sure is there is a harmless way to get rid of ants. If there is, I would be interested in hearing about it. Most ants are beneficial, and I leave them alone, but last year I had some ants that were destroying potted roses, roses in the ground, and also lawn areas. They killed them outright. They were not fire ants. I finally had to break with my organic way of gardening and apply Amdro. That's how bad it got. This year there are ants, but not enough to damage anything.

As far as killing grass, I purchased a book titled "Lasagne Gardening". In it they have a method of layering newspaper, cardboard, and probably some other stuff, and then covering it with a good mulch layer, such as chipped bark. It takes a while,probably a few months, but it should kill the grass if you have normal grass. I know that method will not kill St. Augustine grass, so I finally had to use Roundup. St. Augustine is also almost impossible to dig out too. It only dies when you don't want it to (it actually is listed as a noxious weed in one of my Florida native plant books). Eventually, I will have a more Florida friendly "lawn" area, and am experimenting with some native ground covers. And yes, I am in agreement that Roundup is not a good thing. I had to weigh the lesser of two evils. I felt the black plastic thing in our heat was more harmful to the microbes and earthworms, but I certainly could be wrong about that.

Sandy

Sammy,
This is my first year as a no spray gardener as well. The oldest of my roses are three years and were picked either from advice here or from the earthkind rose list. Most are holding their own and bs has not been too much of a problem except on Hermosa, but that's another story.

About ants, I use diatomaceous earth. It's the ground up shells of diatoms, or hard shelled small organisms. It cuts the ants into pieces. I can even use it in my small vegetable plot because it's safe to use around food crops and isn't toxic. It's a white powder - no smell. I bought the Safer brand, but I am sure there are others too.

For indoors, I put small drops of liquid borax onto pieces of waxed paper in the areas where the trails lead into the house. You can find it in small bottles with a clear liquid labeled Terro Ant Killer. Borax is a mineral and Terro mixes that with a syrup that ants like. It's not toxic. I think you can use Terro outside too, but I like diatomaceous earth too. You can find Terro's website for more info. Neither of these are very expensive.

About roundup - we used it to kill the grass in our front yard and after awhile reseeded it with fescue grass seed. We were trying to get rid of the bermuda that was choking the fescue. We also spread horse manure and alfalfa at the same time on most of it; it grew like gangbusters. On one section we seeded w/o the manure and just alfalfa because we'd run out. It didn't grow at all until we spread the manure. I hesitate to make any proclamations, but the manure seemed to add back into the soil what it needed in terms of microbes in order to help the grass grow. For whatever that anecdote it worth...

I used the lasagne method for all my beds like Sandy. It really works; my grass is fescue, though, which is a lot different than working with bermuda grass or st. augustine. The fescue just decomposed without a problem and didn't come back.

I piled on the horse manure, leaves, grass clippings, bagged cheap soil and anything else I could find onto cardboard or thick layers of newspaper. Here's a picture of a flower bed that was made the lasagne way.

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There's one thing. I know I've said this before, but I'll say it again.
When you switch from a sprayed garden to a garden that is not sprayed,
there are going to be some ruts in the road.

A no-spray garden isn't going to be FULLY disease-free, EVER.
There will be small occasional outbreaks of disease to contend with.
And there is the fact that you don't have a colony of beneficials --
you have no balanced ecology.
That has to develop. And that takes time.

Figure, a good three years, to get pretty much where you want to go.
And you will have to steel your heart to accept some losses.
Some roses will NOT grow spray-free.
To have a "No-Spray" garden, you will probably, in the end,
have to get rid of those roses.
To us, it was worth it. But EVERYONE's mileage varies.

Jeri

Considering that the subject is "no spray", you might like a little refrain that I have had on a poster in my classroom for quite a few years. I teach Spanish, but will write out the English first.

The Land
is not an inheritance
from our fathers,
but a loan
from our children.

La Tierra
no es una herencia
de nuestros padres
sino un préstamo
de nuestros hijos.

(Antiguo refrán índio)

I love looking at the poster. It is of a little girl standing in a field of flowers. It is a huge poster, but has so much meaning to me. It is a shame that my students are 16 years old, and could care less. But maybe after an entire year in the room, some of them look at it, and wonder about it. Many do ask what it means since the English is not on the poster.

Jeri, you're so right. My garden went through an adjustment period, but now after two years, I have few problems to complain about. (Getting through the first year was tough....real tough). I'm sure during our rainy season this summer (if we get one, we've been awful dry may cause me to have a few issues to deal with, but not enough to bother me, and it will pass. The roses I have now will be able to handle that and still look good. I've been ruthless with the others. My hybrid teas Tiffany, Mr. Lincoln, and Queen Elizabeth have even adjusted. They got scared when they saw the others coming out. I got them from Malcolm Manners, so they're special anyway.

Duchesse nalabama, your gardens are beautiful. Thank you for mentioning the diatomaceous earth. I'll try that if I have an ant problem again. Fortunately, they haven't come in the house. I only had a problem a few years ago with that when my grandkids put some corn kernels, and/or various cookie crumbs on my window sill while visiting. Those darn ants learned there were goodies there and kept coming back long after the kids had left. They finally realized after awhile that there wouldn't be goodies there anymore. No more problems (inside anyway).

I also firmly believe that planting other types of plants among your roses both accents them, and greatly reduces pest and disease problems. Feeding the soil is the other must.

Oh, and I have to say it. No living thing will EVER be disease free, no matter what you do. Disease resistant, but never disease free. You can spray poison until the cows come home, but something will still get sick. The key is to have healthy plants that can get better on their own, like we do when we get a cold or flu. Plants have immune systems, which can learn to fight the nasties on their own, IF they are the correct plants for your climate, and IF they are sited in an area that they will thrive in. A shade plant needs to be in shade, and a sun lover like a rose needs to be in the sun.

It's such a relief to not spray anymore. I feel like a huge burden has been lifted.

Sandy

I'd be very cautious and do some research before using Diatomaceous earth. From what I understand, the same tiny sharp edges of this material that makes it effective against ants, can evidently cut and scar human lungs if breathed and cause very serious health problems.

I'm no expert here, but I've been warned by people I trust that Diatomaceous earth is an extremely hazardous material to use. Proceed with caution.

Bill (who's starting to feel like he's Debbie Downer)

You know, tho, Bill -- now that you mention it, I think I've heard that before.

Jeri

We have tons of Bermuda grass, and all I can say is, if you weed it and weed it and keep a heavy mulch on your beds, you can considerably weaken it. My idea is that since Bermuda grass doesn't grow everywhere even in its territory, there are places where it's outcompeted by other plants. So my job is to create conditions that are more favorable to the plants I want to grow than to the Bermuda grass. It is a slow job, and we have so much garden I'm not sure who's going to win. But we have certainly weakened it in zones where it used to grow thickly.

I've used the method of covering turf with several (eight) layers of newspaper and covering that with 4"-6" of mulch and leaving it for several weeks, and it works: it kills the grass and you can dig everything together afterwards and make it into a garden bed. I've also done the lifting turf method, and it's much harder and actually less effective.

This time of year we get ant nests. I don't like them, but I figure they're probably there for a reason, and I leave them alone if they're not in some really critical spot. I have poured boiling water over a nest that was in the middle of a much-used path, for example (obviously not a nest that was among the roots of a desirable plant). The last couple of years I haven't bothered the ants, nor they me. If the ants did become a problem, I would start looking into what attracts ants, and try to get rid of the attraction.

It's not just on account of disease that gardens don't look great absolutely all the time. Come on, are we ourselves necessarily at our most ravishing when we stagger out of bed in the morning to get ready to go to work, or after a bout of flu? Roses are living things; gardens are assemblages of living things. Roses come out of bloom; they get beaten down by a deluge of rain (it happened here this afternoon); they shed their leaves in March to make room for new growth, looking extremely ratty as they do so; they get disease; their flowers are gobbled by beetles; bindweed and Bermuda grass rise through the mulch around their feet. To be alive is to be imperfect. We all try hard to make our gardens as lovely as our knowledge and time and energy will permit, but beauty, real beauty, is still intermittent, always a gift, always a surprise, always a blessing. Serendipity is a garden.

Melissa

To spray: for me it meant to coordinate with my husband who has begun carrying the tank. We would both find a time when it is usually well over 95 degrees outside. We would put on the rubber respirator, goggles, rubber gloves, and rubber boots. We would prepare and fill the tank, and proceed.

I have under 300 roses, but all are large. I would usually have to refill the tank once, and we would stop to drink. Once we were through, we needed to thoroughly rinse the tank, and put everything away, then wash out the respirator, boots, and gloves. We would drink again, shower, put clothes in the washer, and rest for at least a couple of hours.

Even though I would only spray every 2 weeks, this ritual has gotten old. Very old!

What a way to spend my time!

I am not sure what the no spray will do to my garden eventually, but I do know that I have some beautiful roses that do not demand the spray. I look forward to my trials with new perennials and a few annuals.

I also look forward to being able to go anywhere without protection, and also being able to take my dogs anywhere on our property without protection.

Sammy

I've been growing roses for twenty years, in four different gardens, always, I must say, in areas with low disease pressure. Currently we have about 380 roses and hundreds--thousands?--of other plants, and all we can do to keep them weeded and mulched, the grass mowed, succulents and such repotted, cuttings taken at the appropriate season, and so on, and on. I can't imagine adding such a hellishly unpleasant task as spraying to our other chores. I wouldn't dream of it even if I had some free time. Sammy, you are well out of it. I hope you stick with your no-spray garden. I think you can have a beautiful one even if it does have some bugs and some blackspot, but think how good it will smell, and how safe your dogs and the wildlife will be, and how visiting small children will be able to chew on the flowers.

Melissa

Just saw this series of postings on no spray roses. I still do spray a few times a year, but have significantly reduced BS by a few time consuming but effective practices. I have found that rose petals sitting on leaves result in black spot so I remove the blossoms as they begin to fade and I also remove any fallen petals or leaves from under the roses at least every few weeks. I also go through all my roses (about 30) once a week and cut off any leaves that are diseased, throwing these cuttings in the garbage. Finally I thin out the center of the roses (especially dense ones like my Graham Thomas Heritage roses) to allow for better air circulation. It is all time consuming but is much more relaxing than the process of spraying!

Melissa, you really must have your hands full. I agree completely with your reasoning. Fortunately I have been very careful with insecticides for many years. I used one chemical - Conserve, and seldom used it. It has been more than a year now for the fungicide use.

When I see my cardinals and other beautiful birds, I realize that the spray program is not for me.

I have listened to every suggestion here, and feel the pain of so many of you watching your roses deteriorate. That is not for me either. We are still watching one Veterans' Honor, but 4 Europeanas and 2 Olympiads are gone.

I am now at the point that I will be searching for roses that I really like to replace what is gone. I also have an opportunity to rethink the design of a few of the beds. Some of them have been impossible to get into and weed. I can also rethink the size of the rose I want and where I want it. This part is good since I would never have removed some of these roses had I not made this decision.

Actually I am happy to have a reason to have removed the 12 Simplicity roses between my yard and our neighbor's. (It is a stretch to look at the good, but it is here.)

Sammy

Sammy,
Things get worse, and then they get better. It sounds like you're going through that in your garden. In 2000 I left behind my garden of eight years in Olympia, by then flourishing and satisfactory, not to say occasionally downright ravishing, and moved to Italy. I had a garden on loan for two years, then moved to the farm, where we had not one square meter of land suitable for gardening. There were no roses, no evergreen foliage, no grass, no nice trees, no flowers, nothing but gravel and weeds, rubble and trash, dust or mud as the weather went. I missed my Olympia garden for three or four years, until we got our garden well under way, and then I didn't miss it any more. I think that you're going through the painful period of losing what you had before while working hard for what you'll enjoy, and love, in the future. Congratulations on going no spray, and good luck! Your garden will be beautiful again.
Melissa