Hi Gill! The link below has been my go-to site for weird things that come up in this forum. Usually, it is spot on, just based on the wealth of their experience. From the looks of your plant, it might be extreme boron deficiency.

I hope this helps. Boron! Sheesh.Who knew.

Pagan

Here is a link that might be useful: Boron deficiency

Gill,
When I look at then site that Pagan listed on Boron difficiency. It does look similar and speaks of how after pruning that there was very little growth.
I am not expert and would want to research and see what is the best way to treat and with what?
I have had a few branches (short ones) not produce much growth,where others grow well.
Al, is great for giving informative answers to the addition or application of extra micro-nutrients. Wonder if it might be an idea to ask him.
Early on, maybe someone here has had a similar issue. Wouldbe good to know.
Rick

Have also missed Karyn's input and hope all is well with she and her family.

Gill, I hope that plant puts out many smaller branches.
I miss Karyn too, I wonder if she is okay.
I emailed her without reply.
Marie

Hi Gill!!

That does look different, but I have seen this on one of mine.. I just let it grow and gave it the Foliage Pro with all of the essential nutrients that it has and it seems to have adjusted. Some of the multi tips dropped and it seemed to grow as what we would think as " normal.." Lol.. But that doesn't say that they know what " normal is.. Lol". The tree I can think of is a little Mini dwarf and it had stems like that. When I get home from my trip , I'll check to see what it is up to these days!!! It really reminds me of your tree!!

Good luck!! It looks healthy and really active tho...

I also have been wondering about Karyn for a while now... All spring and summer. I know I have emailed some of you all asking about her. The emails sent to her from me have gone unanswered and now I am concerned.

Karyn, or anyone who knows her or her hubby... Please try and find out if she is ok? We are concerned and would like to help if she needs it.

Sending love to you Karyn...

Thank you!!!

Laura

This must be the thread you mentioned. Is your plant on a healthy root system? What have you been doing for nutritional supplementation all summer? Are you using tap water and is it either heavy on particular elements of softened before it reaches your watering can?

Sometimes with a little input, something jumps out at you, but even in hands-on situations, trying to diagnose deficiencies of particular nutrients winds up being something of a guessing game. What DOES work in almost all situations, is to take inventory of your practices in order to determine that you're not asking the plant to grow at or beyond the limits it's genetically programmed to tolerate.

You need:
First, a good soil that supports a healthy root system. A good soil is one you can water freely at will without having to be concerned that root rot or diminished root function will come to play as a limiting factor. You need good light, favorable temperatures, and a good fertilizer supplementation program. If you can provide these conditions, your plant will respond favorably. Somewhere, on the short list of basics, something is very likely out of sync with what the plant wants, and it's the least favorable factor that is limiting the plant. If that factor doesn't jump out at you as apparent, go to the basics and make sure you have all the bases covered.

Al

Hello Al and thanks for replying directly on here to my email.
Before I answer any points you raise can I say that this is the only plant that is showing these signs. I have 2 others of exactly the same age, exactly the same seed batch that are in the same mix and get the same treatment so I am puzzled even more now!!! I have 20 seedlings in the same mix but with smaller particles, none of them are showing this problem.
It's caudex is as hard as a rock as are the above ground roots.
It's my version of your gritty mix, bark chips, gravel, vermiculite all of screened to a similar size plus a small amount of cactus mix. Obviously it's very porous and water runs out as soon as it goes in with hardly any being retained.
The fertiliser I have been using is one sold here in the UK for African Violets/Saintpaulia with a NPK ratio of 15.30.15 plus added copper, iron and manganese. The suggested dosage is given as 0.5mg/litre. Once they had broken dormancy I started off using it once a week as it suggests (plain water in between times if needed) and once a month I flush out with plain water.
Yes I do use tapwater and in our area is is slightly hard at 7 on our UK Clark scale of water softness. Maybe rainwater would be best as I cannot determine from the water board's site what softeners, if any, may be added to our supply.
As for light levels, natural sunlight can be hard to come by in the UK at times! That said, 2013 has been a sunnier summer and warmer too. But as already mentioned, my 2 other larger plants have exactly the same treatment and my 20 or so seedlings are all fine too.

So my first thought is that I do need to have a look at what's going on below soil level as all other possible influences are the same.
I appreciate your time and suggestions Al, hopefully I can come back with some further news.
Best regards, Gill UK

Where are your plants getting their Ca and Mg? You're also supplying about 6x more P than your plants need or can use. That much excess P affects the uptake of Fe, K, Mn, Ca, Cu, and Z. It also unnecessarily raises the EC/TDS of the soil solution and pH levels. I'd start by making sure you flush the soil at each watering and using a fertilizer with a more appropriate ratio - one that supplies all the nutrients essential to normal growth, and all in a favorable ratio. Look for something in a 3:1:2 ratio that contains Ca and Mg, as well as the other secondary macros and micros.

Best luck ....

Al

PS - I couldn't respond to your emails because of how you have the settings on your user page. I get: (PLEASE NOTE: The member responding to your post has chosen not to reveal his or her email address. Therefore, you cannot reply to this message via email.) with the return email addy being: gardenweb_user@gardenweb.com

Take care.

Al

Al, many thanks for your replies...I have updated my settings, thanks for that.
Seems like I really need to get some fertiliser that is more appropriate to good overall DR nutrition. I thought that this well known UK brand saintpaulia stuff would be OK as it says it promotes healthy growth and promotes flowering...maybe it does, for African Violets, but not for DR's obviously. Seems like it is lacking in some areas, but too strong in others. Hopefully when I get this fertiliser cracked, my plants will not just live, they may even thrive.

It's now clear to me that to grow them better I'll have to scour the shelves, read the labels and find some of the ratio you suggest and also carefully check the roots as well for any problems down below. Seems like a trip to the garden centre tomorrow to see what I can come up with. As you say, first is that flushing out. Mmmmh, I have noticed a crusty build up on the 5 in terracotta pots in particular...excess fertiliser salts ??
Thanks again Al, greatly appreciate you time/help.
Gill UK

Gill, I hope your plants are doing well. Were you able to find a fertilizer to use that might be lower in P? One thing I have found is too much fertilizer seems to do more harm than not using fertilizer at all. But your plants look so healthy. Good luck on clearing up your 'crispy tip' problem.

I wonder why Al suggests such a high number for Nitrogen?

Gill,
I am going to put together a few photo's of what I have for Arabicums (from seed). I have not kept many of them because I felt that even with their characteristicly wide base (way down the road) their flower type, color, etc. is limited. So if I have a few different forms then that is good.
I used 24-8-16 (Miracle Grow) and 20-20-20 (M. Dimmitt had listed) at 1/4 strength every watering.
One thing I have noticed with growing these Arabicums from seed. I thought that they would stay really fat and squat and start widening at the base as they grew taller? Could very well be my conditions for growing them?

Ladylotus,
I remember something that Al had mentioned about the "N" at the level suggested, but I will not quote as I am sure I will miss something.
There is a correlation between the three elements. We always think of the "N" pushing green growth, but I believe it also is necessary for the plants for more than just that.
Going to stop while I am hopefully ahead.
Need to dig out this info. and digest again. I quite enjoy ready his info.

I do not believe my seedlings to be huge and I would rather they didn't grow fast and grow low and thick, height can come later on.
Rick

Plants' nutritional needs vary considerably in the AMOUNT of nutrients they need, but don't vary much in the relationship between the nutrients - the ratio. You'll find that sequoias, snapdragons, and sedum, all use very close to a 10:1.5:6 ACTUAL ratio of NPK. Since the amount of P and K listed on fertilizer containers is actually the amount of P2O5 and K2O respectively, we need to multiply the %s listed by .43 and .83 respectively. When we do this, we can easily see that fertilizers with a RATIO of 3:1:2 (like 24-8-16, 12-4-8, 9-3-6) furnish nutrients in almost exactly the same ratio as that actually used by the average of all plants.

Keep in mind that when you fertilize, it's not the fertilizer NPK %s that control the amount of N delivered, it's the grower's hand. It's just as easy to oversupply N with a 1:1:1 ratio as it is a 3:1:2 ratio fertilizer. It sounds knowledgeable to suggest that this or that plant would do better with a lower N fertilizer like 20-20-20, but the fact is, most growers aren't skillful enough to actually grow their plants on the edge of a N deficiency. In almost all cases, we supply N based on plant appearance and growth rate - ALWAYS supplying enough N to ensure good color and good growth. In this case, if you're using a fertilizer with a 3:1:2 ratio and supplying adequate N, you're also providing an appropriate amount of P and K. If you're supplying adequate amts of N with a 20-20-20 or even a 7-7-7, you're OVER-supplying P by almost 3x, and K by 1.7x. The excess nutrients unnecessarily add to the EC/TDS of the soil solution and make it more difficult for the plant to take up water and nutrients. They might also limit the plants ability to take up specific nutrients (an antagonistic deficiency). The effects of using fertilizers with ratios that vary widely from actual usage become increasingly problematic as your ability to flush the soil regularly is limited.

It's very difficult to make a case for fertilizers that supply as much P as N for container culture, and almost impossible to make a case for any fertilizer that supplies more P than N. Saying 'it works for me' doesn't count toward making a case, btw. ;-)

Al

Al, thank you for the information. I have to read it several more times as I'm not quite certain I understand everything you state. However, I am experimenting with fertilizers, how often to fertilize and my watering techniques, so as of now I don't have the success to say "it works for me".

I was told to use beer, epsom salt and household amonia in small doses with my fertilizer. Have you hear of this and is it beneficial? I have noticed since using it my plants are looking much better and growing by leaps and bounds. I just started using it recently with very noticeable results.

I'm curious since you have the science background, if you think these items help at all or will I eventually see my plants crash.

p.s. I started using your potting mix this summer and am still trying to figure out how much I should be watering, but I have seen a huge improvement in the plants I potted up in this gritty mix.

The ammonia would be a source of N, and the Epsom salts a source of Mg and S (the S being sort of inconsequential because it's rarely deficient in container culture).

The best fertilizer program you can possibly hope for would be one that ensures all the nutrients plants normally get from the soil are in the soil and available, in the same ratio as that at which the plant uses those nutrients, and at a concentration high enough to ensure no deficiencies yet low enough that the plant has no problem absorbing water and the nutrients dissolved in water. The easiest and most effective way to do that is with one fertilizer that supplies all the nutrients at the right ratio.

If you're using the beer/ammonia/Epsom salts exclusively, your plants will indeed suffer from a lack of the other nutrients not included in the mixture. If you're using those ingredients in addition to your current fertilizer program, you're undoubtedly seeing an overlap of ingredients (like both your home mixture and fertilizer supplying N), and an excess of any one nutrient can be as limiting as a deficiency, so it can't be as good for your plants as a single fertilizer that appropriately covers all the bases. I use one fertilizer for every plant I grow - Foliage-Pro 9-3-6.

If you started with the home made fertilizer mixture about the same time you changed to a more porous soil, it might be the soil that made the difference in your plants. Not trying to be a glory hound about the soil thing, just keeping it real. It is a distinct possibility ;-)

If there is anything in my previous post you don't quite understand, and think understanding it might be helpful to you - don't hesitate to ask.

Al

Hi Gill,
I just came In from a trip and I checked the one that i was thinking of,,

Just a bit different tho... Mine has some strange ends but not like yours,, sorry.

I will chime In and say that I water all of my trees DR's and Bonsai with the Foliage Pro. This is the best fertilizer and I have been using it for two full seasons now. It has all of the essential nutrients and other elements needed to help our trees thrive.
I use it on all Plumeria, Adeniums, tropicals and anything else I have. I love it!!!!! This is the fertilizer I trust on everything ,,

Good luck to you... Im Sure you will find a proper fertilizer soon!! If not could I send you some? Just a thought... ;-)

Hi Al, you give great advise. Thank you !!! I love all of my trees in the gritty and using foliage pro. It is the best for each other,, it works!!!

Take care, Gill

Laura

LadyL...my plants seem good,thanks, even the one with the problem has glossy green leaves in parts, and the crusty tips are really trying their best to burst forth. The seedlings are still growing despite the shorter, cooler days as we slip further into auumn. I've not been able to find some better fertiliser just yet, I'm currently at work all day and have no such shops in our area, we are out in the country. Nearest decent garden centre is an 2hr round trip!

Al...thanks for the further info. As LadyL said, it takes a few reads for some of us to understand it...and I too need to re-read again...your help (and patience too!!) is appreciated by many.

Laura...so one of yours has strange ends, but different, wonder what that is all about? I'm going to try and either get the foliage pro over here or one very similar when I can get to the garden centre, but thanks you for your kind offer to mail me some. It appears to be for sale on ebay but the shipping cost more than doubles the price so I need to search a bit harder first!!!
Gill UK

Hi Al... Just read your last comment and I wanted to say " thank you.." That was very kind of you to say..

You have taught me well and I will always trust in the knowledge that I can share with others.. You have always helped me when I first started growing and I also like to help others as well. We do seem to be on The same page and I find that to be very comforting in the sense that I am on the same page as you... To see you comment on my growing abilities makes me very happy!! Thank You, my friend!!! You have taught me well... ;-)

Have a wonderful night!!!

Laura

ok after reading all this did you switch to something like Foliage-Pro 9-3-6. Did it help the browning and growth?

I like the fertilizer system from Al. So i will give it a try. Hoping that i bought the right stuf.

If you use that particular fertilizer, you'll need a source of micro-nutrients and the secondary macro-nutrients because all it supplies is N, P, K, and S. You'd be better served to purchase Miracle-Gro 12-4-8 liquid or even better - Foliage-Pro 9-3-6.

Al

I got the Foliage 9-3-6 but am confused about the micro's it seems a lot of people mix there own. I feed dry micro's to the fish tank plants but am not sure what to buy without having to fuss with different bottles. Our water is from our own Dam so it is not treated with a lot of extra's but not to hard 7

I substituted Growstone for Granite because I had it.

How much Turface should I buy? I have three lbs of everything else (sifted), But was not sure how much waste Turface has. I can buy it by the pound.

You will need to screen the Turface. It has a lot of fines in it.

Rick

what is the percentage of waste so I know what to buy. Get it by the lb

M - Foliage-Pro contains ALL the nutrients necessary for normal growth that plants normally get from the soil, so you don't need any other additives.

If you screen Turface MVP or Allsport through aluminum insect screen, about 1/3 or slightly less will pass through as fines and wouldn't be appropriate for use in the Gritty mix.

The particle size of the ingredients is important. If the growstones aren't in the size range from about 3/32 - 3/16", it's probably better if you look for something more appropriate. This is especially true if the bark fraction is also on the large side.

Al

Thank you Al. I only found these two smal packages. Can i mix these 2 with the big scotts package so that every npk, micro and macro nutrients are in one?

You have 2 different fertilizers - one is slow release (not 'controlled' release - they're different) the other is water soluble, so in view of that fact, it's probably not a good idea to mix them. Also, 3:1:2 ratio fertilizers are formulated to provide nutrients in the ratio that the average plant actually takes up the nutrients. That means that ALL nutrients are represented as a function of N. IOW - you need a specific amount of each nutrient to compliment each unit of N the plant uses. In this case, if you mix equal volumes of 24-8-16 with the 12-4-8, and could figure out how to apply them properly, the combined mixture would still only have 2/3 as much of the secondary macros and all micros as the plant would need.

If you want to use the slow release rose formula for containers, let me know how much you have and how much each bag weighs. I'll figure out how much Micromax is needed to "fill in the missing blanks' and send it to you - assuming you live in the US or a US Territory.

Al

The only Micromax I can find online are cell phones so I am now confused, Sorry

http://files.tlhort.com/labels/10497-osmo_micromax_micronutrients.pdf

I live in South America. Yes i want to use it. The scotts Rose & Bloom 12-4-8 is 3 lb and one Miracle-Grow 24-8-16 is 226 gr. Thank you in advance

Hi Al, i can not find micromax. I am using the rose bloom fertilizer once a month and the MG weakly weekly with good results. I will still searching for FP 9 3 6. Thanks for all the great info Al.