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brandyray

Improving sand?

19 years ago

Hi, everyone. I am getting conflicting info on how to improve my sand. I have read just add mulch and fertilizer (I use manure), but then I've been told to buy expensive soils and add them also. The sand here is acidic, so I know I will need to add some lime. This particular area is for roses mainly.

At this point, my biggest concern is to add organic matter so the water does not drain through so fast. Thanks for any recommendations you can give me. Brandy

Comments (17)

  • 19 years ago
    last modified: 11 years ago

    Organic matter so the water does not drain through so fast, eh?
    WWOMD? (what would old mainer do?)

    Sorry, I had too. Yes, organic matter is a great idea. Don't try to mix soil types. It's too difficult to get it right and more often than not it creates more problems than it solves.

    How acidic is acidic? 5.5 or greater = no sweat for roses (and most other stuff). Less than 5.5 and problems can start showing up.

    How sandy is your sand? Even soils containing some silt and clay are classified as sand if the ratio of sand to silt to clay falls within the parameters for sand. The less clay, the less lime you'll need to adjust the pH if adjustment is necessary. (Also consider lime content, which is probably low to none if you pH is less than 6.5 or so)
    If you're planning to use raw peat for organic amendment, that will drop the pH of the soil solution. (That's a quick and easy way to drop pH while adding organic to sand based athletic fields.) It would probably be best to use some sort of composted material if you're soil is already acidic. I personally am not a big fan of manures, composted or otherwise because of the salts that get added. Of course, if your soil is sandy enough, salts should leach pretty readily.

  • 19 years ago
    last modified: 11 years ago

    Thank you, squonnk. How sandy is my sand? Well, if I pick up a handful and open my fingers, it just pours through. That's pretty sandy.
    According to the soil report- the ph in the tomato garden is 6.2, in the bean/misc. garden (new this yr so not worked on much), it is 5.5. The recommendation for both areas was 8T (8 tons of lime per acre). My plan is to work on the new garden the next couple of mos., then get it tested late winter. Would you add lime now? I have the pellitized kind, and some of the other as well. Brandy

  • 19 years ago
    last modified: 11 years ago

    As far as the question of fertilizers, I don't like to use artificial fertilizers (and I don't like to buy them either); the well-rotted horse manure is free, and very dry, so not smelly. I have also been able to get some bamboo and have been running the mower over the leaves and adding it as well.

  • 19 years ago
    last modified: 11 years ago

    Try growing elbon rye for one year to grow enormous amount of root system as your source of organic matter. Just simply mow them down after a year or once they are done growing.

  • 19 years ago
    last modified: 11 years ago

    Thank you, Lou. I had never heard of elbon rye before, but after doing a google search, it really sounds good. I will see if the local farm store carries it. Brandy

  • 19 years ago
    last modified: 11 years ago

    What your sand needs is lots of organic matter, and in much of North Carolina the deciduous trees are dropping lots of organic matter now that can be used. Before you even think of adding lime, or any "fertilizer" contact your local office of the North Carolina State University USDA Cooperative Extension Service and inquire about having a good, reliable soil test done. That will help guide you in adding what you may need without spending money on "stuff" you do not need, which would waste your time and energy as well as cause pollution.
    Manure, by itself, in sandy soils will not stay long because without lots of vegetative waste in the sand to hold the manure there it will follow the water. Manures also should be composted with a goodly amount of vegetative waste before being applied to soil.

  • 19 years ago
    last modified: 11 years ago

    According to the soil test results that you received, I'd say that the pH is just fine for the vast majority of plants in the 'tomato garden' area. I wouldn't even touch a 6.2.
    In the 'bin/misc. garden' area you have a 5.5. Remember, there will always be variation throughout any site. In some spots it might be 5.7 and others it might be 5.2. You're straddling the point where some microbial activity might be inhibited and some micronutrients may be made less available by a lower pH. However, you've got some room to play with and still stay in the preferred slightly to moderately acidic range, so I'd go ahead and put in some lime. 8 tons per acre comes out to about 350 lbs. per 1000 sq. ft. That's going to be way too much, especially in a sandy soil. On the report, did they run actual particle sizes and give you a texture (i.e. sandy loam or loamy sand)? If not, did they give you anything like 'half saturation percentage' or 'cation exchange capacity (CEC)', or 'total exchangeable cations (TEC)'? Those are all things you could use to make a good guestimate for texture. Loamy sands and even some particularly coarse sandy loams can look and act a lot like sand when you pick it up but still have a fair bit of silt and/or clay. Clay will buffer against pH changes in either direction and ideally, liming rates should reflect that.
    Anyway, assuming it is a sand with low clay percentage, I'd probably start with something close to actual calcium carbonate lime (mined lime flour is about 97% calcium carbonate and oyster shell is somewhere in the 90-something% range as well) at just 50 - 75 lbs. per 1000 sq. ft down to a 6-inch depth (or about 1 to 1.5 tons per acre) to bump it up. Another option is dolomitic lime if your test showed magnesium being low, but the calcium carbonate equivalent will vary considerably depending on the source. Expect the change to happen slowly and re-test next year to see where you're at.
    You can apply the lime any time. Of course, it takes longer to react when the soil is cooler and we are going into winter, but it won't hurt to have it in while the weather's cool. Also consider the fact that the pellets of a pelletized product have to break down first before most of the product can start reacting. In other words, the pelletized stuff is excruciatingly slow, even in a sandy soil.
    If it were me, I would till lime in with about 5 to 6 cu. yds. of composted greenwaste per 1000 sq. ft. to a 6 inch depth in the 'bin/misc. garden' area and just the organic without the lime in the 'tomato garden' area. Yes, till it in. Microbes are much hardier and faster to rebound than some folks give them credit for. You won't be descending on the soil like a black death squad on a village innocent microbial babies and old ladies by tilling. Most of them will be just fine and their populations will rebound much faster than it would take for the organic matter to work its way down.
    In the future, I would avoid acidifiying fertilizers like ammonium sulfate (21-0-0) or any of the urea products, particularly sulfur coated urea.

  • 19 years ago
    last modified: 11 years ago

    Thank you, kimmsr and squonnk. I have a lot more pines here than deciduous trees. But I will look around and see what I can gather that will not leave any bare areas in the woods (don't want more briars, etc. popping up).
    The soil report is from the local extension office, so probably reasonably accurate.
    CEC is 7.9 in the tomato garden and 6.1 in the bean garden.
    The bean/misc. garden has been getting all of the veggie scraps and also some shredded paper from work. My tomato garden will be there next yr. so I am trying to get it ready. (The tomato garden is being divided into sunflowers and a new rose garden.)
    The magnesium is not low in either garden.
    For the bean garden the recommendations were
    N 80-100, Phosphate 10-30, and Potash 90-110.
    The tomato garden was N 90-120, Phosphate 0-20, Potash 30-50, and Boron 1.0
    I will add some lime to the bean garden. I hope to get some more bamboo leaves to shred and work in. I will see about other leaves. I usually use a shovel, but if you are telling me I should not disturb the soil too much then I could use a rake.
    Interestingly, I used pellitized lime after I got the report because I was told it would dissolve into the soil faster...
    I am looking into vermicomposting. No earthworms here except what I have brought in from various potted plants. I do occasionally see one now, and I am very happy about that.
    It is obvious, squonnk, that you are very knowledgeable about these matters, and I appreciate your assistance.
    On another subject, I have to report that I saw a honeybee yesterday! How wonderful! Brandy

  • 19 years ago
    last modified: 11 years ago

    -Happy to help out when I can.
    -The 7.9 in the tomato garden sounds like a coarse sandy loam. The 6.1 in the 'bean garden' is more what I would expect from a sand or loamy sand. With that CEC, I'd actually put the rate to about 30-35 lbs. per 1000 sq. ft. to a 6 inch depth. (If the CEC in that area where 7.9 I would have stuck with the 50-75 lb. rate)
    -The finer the texture of the liming material, the faster it reacts. It's a surface area thing.
    -Actually, I guess the point I was trying to make about tilling the stuff in was that I feel tilling the amendments in is better than throwing them on top and raking into the surface, in regards to pre-plant application. Once the plants are in the ground, sure...put everything on top, follow with a thorough irrigation and let it work down over time.
    -Those N, P, K numbers are kind of throwing me. Usually recommendations will come as "lbs. per acre" or "lbs. per 1000 sq. ft.". The numbers you have there sound a lot like parts per million (ppm) in dry soil. However, I'm not sure if that's a range they're telling you to shoot for (which would make the 0-20 phosphorus sound really weird aside from the fact that recommendations aren't generally give that way, and those nitrogen numbers would be a little high) or if those are supposed to be what was found in your soil (which would make the fact that they're reported as a range rather than an actual values sound really weird) Was there a unit attached to those numbers, and are you sure they are the recommendations?
    -I personally like to compost material first, but your leaves and such will eventually break down in the soil. Just watch your C/N ratio.

  • 19 years ago
    last modified: 11 years ago

    The recommendations were in pounds per acre.
    The results -I'm not sure which #'s you want-
    Tomato garden- BS% 86.0 Ac 1.1 P-1 99 K-1 93 Ca% 62.0 Mg% 18.0 Mn-I 192 Mn-Al (1) 118 Zn-1 225 Zn-A1 225 Cu-1 81 S-1 41
    Beans- Ac 1.7 P-1 85 K-1 58 Ca% 52.0 Mg% 16.0 Mn-1 114 Mn-A1 (1) 78 Zn-1 243 Zn-A1 243 Cu-1 66 S-1 26

    Does that make it clearer? (I think one has to be scientist to understand these reports!)
    I will shovel everything in then.
    I will get both areas tested again late winter.
    The soil where the rose garden is going is different because it is over the drain field, so there is some clay there which should make it easier for the new plants to hold on to their moisture. Thank you, Brandy

  • 19 years ago
    last modified: 11 years ago

    It takes some time for changes in your soil to occur so retesting later this winter will not show much difference and is pretty much a waste of your money as well as the time and energy neded to collect the samples. Apply the recommended rates of material and as much organic matter as you can and wait at least a full year before testing again, maybe even 5 years.
    These simple soil tests can help you see what is going on in your soil;
    1) Structure. From that soil sample put enough of the rest to make a 4 inch level in a clear 1 quart jar, with a tight fitting lid. Fill that jar with water and replace the lid, tightly. Shake the jar vigorously and then let it stand for 24 hours. Your soil will settle out according to soil particle size and weight. A good loam will have about 1-3/4 inch (about 45%) of sand on the bottom. about 1 inch (about 25%) of silt next, about 1 inch (25%) of clay above that, and about 1/4 inch (about 5%) of organic matter on the top.

    2) Drainage. Dig a hole 1 foot square and 1 foot deep and fill that with water. After that water drains away refill the hole with more water and time how long it takes that to drain away. Anything less than 2 hours and your soil drains too quickly and needs more organic matter to slow that drainage down. Anything over 6 hours and the soil drains too slowly and needs lots of organic matter to speed it up.

    3) Tilth. Take a handful of your slightly damp soil and squeeze it tightly. When the pressure is released the soil should hold together in that clump, but when poked with a finger that clump should fall apart.

    4) Smell. What does your soil smell like? A pleasant, rich earthy odor? Putrid, offensive, repugnant odor? The more organic matter in your soil the more active the soil bacteria will be and the nicer you soil will smell.

    5) Life. How many earthworms per shovel full were there? 5 or more indicates a pretty healthy soil. Fewer than 5, according to the Natural Resources Conservation Service, indicates a soil that is not healthy.

  • 19 years ago
    last modified: 11 years ago

    Thank you, kimmsr. I will try some of these experiments this wkend (w/ the time change I now get home after dark- bummer!). Very few earthworms here but more than when I arrived. I am looking into trying the vermicomposting.
    The soil smells normal to me, earthy, though I think the sand does not smell like much, but the areas where I have added mulch, etc, smell earthy. Brandy

  • 19 years ago
    last modified: 11 years ago

    I would recommend that you enjoy the many virtues of your beautiful sand and install a good drip irrigation system.

  • 19 years ago
    last modified: 11 years ago

    Kimmsr,

    I don't want you to think that I am picking on you all the time, but what you described under 'structure' above was actually 'texture' and is not really a very accurte test. You can squeeze soil between your fingers and make a better guess than settling stuff out in a jar.

  • 19 years ago
    last modified: 11 years ago

    Actually, I use soaker hoses, fertilizer salesman. Can't afford an irrigation system at this time. Soakers are fairly convenient-just wish they lasted longer. Brandy

  • 19 years ago
    last modified: 11 years ago

    I'm glad squonk picked up on the ridiculous recommendation for adding lime. Imagine pouring out seven 50-pound bags of lime per 1,000 square feet. Just based on that I would question the entire report. I have a feeling they never tested your soil/sand. Just to test a local company I sent in a sample of my home made compost. It had never had anything but banana peels and live oak leaves in it. The report came back saying it was limestone and needed acidifiers. It also reported that I needed to add organic materials. Since I live on a limestone quarry the report would have been correct if I had sent in real soil, but this pile had been above ground for years.

    I don't mean this to sound like I'm condemning you, but why did you test sand? I like sand and use it exclusively to fill and as a "topsoil" for my limestone base, but was there something obviously mixed in with yours to make you think it had some initial fertility? Is yours pretty white? If so then none of kimmsr's tests are going to tell you much. I llke kimmsr's tests, but for sand they really don't apply. One of his tests tells you to fill a 1-cubic-foot hole (almost 8 gallons) with water and watch how fast it drains. My expectation is that you will not be able to fill a hole without dumping 5-gallon bucket after 5-gallon bucket into the hole all at once. You'll get a good result on his tilth test but sand has no tilth. It just sticks together when damp. But try his tests and see what you get. You might have more in your soil than you (and I) suspect.

    If you have pure sand, the best thing you can do is grow something in it. Roots will start the organic processes. St Augustine grass will grow in sand as will sea grapes and all the dune grasses. Ask around locally and see which will be easy to mow off and kill in the spring when you want to put in your garden. Don't ever till or pull plants out by the roots. You need all the roots left in the ground as homes to the microbes that decompose the roots and feed the plants.

    Mulch is your friend. Use it heavily.

  • 19 years ago
    last modified: 11 years ago

    So, I'm to gather that the local extension office did not do a good job on testing my sand?
    And as for why I tested sand, that's what's in my yard! No point testing something that isn't in my yard. My sand is fairly white. Both soils tested were improved to some extent- the tomato garden the most, the bean garden was newer and had had less work.
    I don't hold out much hope for the above tests either, because I think the water is just going to drain right on through, and the only place where the soil will not just pour through my fingers is where the drain field is (clay in there). But I am working on the problem and will eventually get some decent soil that will hold moisture better.
    I am using lots of mulch. I like to put down newspaper around my tomatoes, then cover w/ mulch.
    I'm interested in the elbon rye- that sounds like a good idea. I will see how many leaves I can drag out of the woods to shovel in, and I will add manure for spring also.
    The soil test either sounds too technical or too inaccurate to be helpful. I am going to take a new sample and drop it off- it will be interesting to see what they tell me this time.
    As for what grows in my sand- weeds! I would like just gardens and bare sand surrounding it, since that isn't happening, it is going to be lots of beds w/ mulched paths.
    Thanks for the help. Brandy