brdldystlu, whether unfinished compost is good or bad for your soil depends on how it is applied and when. Any undigested organic matter worked into the soil can cause the soil bacteria to get to work on that material and cause a short term Nitrogen loss, but organic matter applied to the surface as mulch will not be as rapidly digested and will not cause the same Nitrogen loss, or any really noticeable Nitrogen loss.
So both sides of this argument are somewhat correct while also somewhat wrong unless all the various qualifiers are known.

As Kimmsr stated, it depends. Not only that, but we each seem to have a slightly different interpretation of just what "finished" is. For the compost that I show and give away, I like to have it very mature, especially if the people are newbies to the process. They like to see the different stages and can readily grasp the concept of...

Raw Materials

Curing

Mature

For those not familiar with flickr, you can select "all sizes" just above the photo to enlarge. I try not to overwhelm my visitors with techno babble about the process (good thing as I don't really know it by heart). I try to keep it simple with mix, moisten, cook, stir and cure. I have shown that heat isn't always necessary, but without exception, when they feel the heat in the hot compost they are always amazed. As was I.

Lloyd

Here is a link that might be useful: One explanation of Maturity

From Lloyd's link (thanks for saving me the time hunting up that reference Lloyd). This makes sense to me, and is the reason I don't use unfinished/unstable compost. It's not the tying up of nitrogen so much as oxygen deficiency and phytotoxic compounds.

On the other hand, who am I to argue with success, as reported by people like Pablo, with using unfinished compost?

Maybe the key words here are 'sensitive plants'. And the article is addressed to people who sell compost.

"As organic material composts, large complex molecules are broken down in a
series of steps. The final products are simple, stable molecules which make up the
humus-like matrix of nutrients and organic matter that we call compost. While this
finished product is very beneficial to plants, some of the intermediate stages may
temporarily produce compounds, such as organic acids, that can be harmful to plant
growth. This is why even compost made of high quality materials that is applied too soon
to lawns or gardens may appear to "burn" leaves, stunt growth, or even kill sensitive plant
species.
Immature composts continue to break down once they are incorporated into the
soil. This can affect plant health by consuming or tying up two resources that growing
roots need. The high level of microbial activity in unfinished compost requires a large
intake of oxygen, and the microbes may pull this from the surrounding soil, essentially
suffocating the roots. The high carbon to nitrogen ratio (C:N ratio) of immature compost
also means that, as the carbon compounds continue to break down, microorganisms will
draw on soil nitrogen to assist in the process, leaving the root zone temporarily nitrogenpoor.
It is therefore crucial that responsible compost producers ensure that their
compost has time to fully mature before selling it to most customers [see note on
Bioactive Compost below], as compost that is still "hot" when it is applied can do serious
damage to both customers plantings and your reputation.
A Note on Stability:
The term stability is often used interchangeably with maturity. They are not really
equivalent, however, and you must be sure you are assessing maturity, rather than simply
stability, when monitoring your own process.
Maturity: biological activity has slowed, as most remaining molecules are difficult to
break down
any further.
Stability: biological activity has slowed, but this may be due to a variety of factorsÂthe
material
may be mature, or it may lack adequate nitrogen or water for the process to
continue. In
this case, if the missing factors are added, biological activity will resume at
active levels.
Establishing Maturity
The CCME guidelines [see Guidelines in Useful Tools] offer four ways of
establishing compost maturity. These methods all attempt to confirm that the composting
process has actually run its course rather than simply stalling due to lack of either
nitrogen or moisture. The use of more than one test is recommended, since presently no
single test exists that can reliably verify maturity.
TABLE 1: CCME Guidelines for Compost Maturity
Required Tests of Compost Maturity
(must conform to one of the following four)
Significance
1.Two of three of the following tests:
a) Carbon/nitrogen ratio (C:N) less than or
equal to 25.
b) Oxygen uptake less than 150 mg O2/kg
organic matter/hour
c) Germination of cress or radish seeds in
compost equal to more than 90% that of
control sample, and plant growth rate in
soil/compost mix not less than 50% that
of control sample.
a) As carbon is broken down through
composting, the C:N ratio drops. (C:N ratio
starts ideally at 30, but can be higher).
b) Microbes require oxygen, so a drop in the O2
required signals a slowing of microbial
activity.
c) Cress (Lepidium sativum) and radish
(Raphanus sativus) are small seeds, quick to
germinate and sensitive to phytotoxic (plantdamaging)
substances like the organic acids
temporarily present in immature composts.
2. Compost must be cured* for a minimum of
21 days, and must not reheat upon standing to
greater than 200C above ambient temperature.
Microbial activity produces heat. When pile is no
longer heating up, the level of microbial activity
has dropped.
3. Compost must be cured* a minimum of 21
days and organic matter must be reduced by at
least 60% by weight.
As composting progresses, water vapour and
carbon dioxide are given off, resulting in a
lighter, denser product.
4. Compost must be cured* for a six-month
period.
In the absence of other tests, six months under
proper conditions to promote effective
composting is considered sufficient to achieve
maturity.

How many here have raved about the success of planting in lasagna? When people plant in a "fresh" lasagna bed- they're planting in much less than half finished compost no?

Remember all the "how long do I have to wait to plant in a new lasagna bed?" threads? Remember all the answers along the lines of "one second" or "no time at all"?

So- a few weeks later you have tomatoes etc. growing in what... half finished compost. Why should it matter if you started the plants in half finished compost in the first place then? Ohhh- because a book says so... or someone's dogma says so... or an expert says so?

I dunno what the motivation is for the people that are most vocal against using 1/2 finished compost. It could be dogma. It could be that they have a sort of "buyers remorse" that they put so much more effort into making compost that someone else didn't invest.

I should say- I even keep adding to my beds throughout the season. One thing that gets added is bunny manure, hay, and wood pellets with bunny pee, as I have rabbits that need at least weekly litter box changes. I would not argue with anyone that says "aha!!! supplemental nitrogen! That's why it works without an N deficiency!"

That may or may not be the reason that it's worked for me. I again, however, point to those that plant in uncomposted sheet mulch/lasagna right away and have success. If you think that you NEED to compost materials fully before adding to a bed- then go ahead. Nobody's laughing or saying that you're doing it wrong- and I'm sure that you will have success. When someone else has success with another method, try and understand how silly it might be to argue with it.

Damm, all this makes me wonder how I ever managed to raise all the good stuff that I have raised and lived to be 72 without complications from eating the produce like {{gwi:78125}} or {{gwi:57839}}.
Just blind luck and the bliss of ignorance, I guess. ":^)

And to think, just yesterday, I mowed about half of the freeze dammaged greens and enjoyed the help and companionship of one of my grandsons who hauled their {{gwi:56498}} to {{gwi:318186}} on my garden to be {{gwi:56496}} out a little so that I could {{gwi:318188}} them up like {{gwi:318190}} to be turned under with the green manure of the mowed greens. Still waiting to come is some prime aged horse manure from my sis in law and my own home made compost, if y'all don't get me too worried about what all I'm possibly doing wrong. I know them leaves are unfinished! ":^)
Bill P.

Pablo, how's your pH this morning?

It's worthwhile to see, at least, where such advice against using unfinished compost comes from, is it not?

Besides the oxygen and phytotoxin questions there's something unappetizing to me about working in soil that has rotting vegetable matter in it. I have no problem whatsoever with other people doing it though, and can't imagine getting all pugnacious about it.

there's a definite difference in spreading "unfinished" compost on the surface ... like lasagna ... and digging/tilling it in

our experience here at the compost education garden is planting in a thick layer of lasgna or fresh compost is that plants thrive because they establish their root system below the organic layer, but transplanting rather than planting seed

the part about cress or radish seed sprouting is relevent in respect to the phytotoxic effects of immature compost - I've tried it, it does happen ... but it doesn't take much "maturing" to get past the point of problems - I suspect part of the problem with planting seed is it's in coarse material where the seed isn't always in close contact with moisture and exposed to too much air

bottom line is if it works, do it, just get that organic material into the garden!!

Bill

Ok, I've been trying to avoid jumping into this thread, but now I have to, LOL
A few years back, I had a area of grass that was in between two beds I had previously planted, it was a curved area and I decided I no longer wanted grass there. I decided to do a very quick lasagna bed there, so it would actually become one big bed. I threw down all the newspapers I could find, including some old printed materials I had copied from some online sites, wet it down and proceeded to fill that area with UNFINISHED COMPOST. Believe me it was really unfinished, there were actually pieces of pumpkin in it, some tomato pieces, shredded leaves, and all kinds of gobbly-gook. I planted immediately the many different seedlings that I had, watered well for a few days and that stuff really took off. I lost nothing, and that bed is doing wonderful. I'd do it again if I just had another area in my small yard, but at this point I have no more room to make any more beds.
Alberta

Well, I may have inadvertently screwed up a little more. I know that it is early, only barely on the plus side of mid December, but the gardening bug got me and I can't let that neighbor Tom get too far ahead of me. With a couple of weeks of unseasonably warm weather on the heels of those two killing frosts, I picked up some {{gwi:258834}} at our local Aggie feed store.

To prep a seed bed for them, I tilled (gasp) a row then put some aged horse manure, followed by some fine alfalfa hay bits (which supposedly are high in nitrogen and a natural growth harmone) in a {{gwi:258835}} to be {{gwi:73008}}. It is supposed to set in raining, with what the weather people call a possibility of a significant rain event for Mon., Tues. and Wed. I hope that happens and should make for a good planting of the onion bulbs.
Bill P.

The nitrogen used to decompose unfinished organic matter on the surface is turned into organisms that are then eaten by other organisms which releases this nitrogen to be used again, no loss.
This applies to surface applied organic matter only, there is other chemistry under the surface of the soil.

Ok here is my question. Lets say I till in something that is high in nitrogen, like manure, are you all now telling me that putting that into the soil it is going to rob it of the nitrogen that is there. After all it is unfinished compost right?From what you all are saying by tilling unfinished compost into the soil it is going to rob it of nitrogen. I don't see how that can happen if the OM already has enough nitrogen in it to compost.
Bill P, I am with you, I just am not going to tell my plants that what I have done all of these years hurts them, not helps them.
Sandy

Sandy, Martin says in an email that the paragraph that you posted above just about says it all. I think that we will be alright. ":^)
Bill P.

LOL Bill P. it was Martin that gave me that paragraph. I have that book on order, hope it gets here soon. I have heard so much from him about this book I just had to order it. Found a used copy that even with shipping it is costing me less than $6 to get it here. I can't wait.
So even though he is no longer on here he can still be here through us.
Sandy

One side seems to say that there is a risk involved in using unfinished compost, and many claim this based on negative experiences. The other side seems to say that they have never experienced any negative side effects, so the risk does not actually exist. I can eat raw chicken for months and not get sick. That does not mean I can claim that there is no risk involved.

This thread started out with a quote that involved "Half-finished compost, however, has certain beneficial properties when added to soil which will not be planted immediately." This offered as proof that it is ok to use unfinished compost. That quote says nothing about planting in unfinished compost. It only mentions finishing composting in the planting location, before planting.

I personally have had mixed results with unfinished compost . I leveled parts of my yard with partially composted sifted mulch made from ground-up hurricane-destroyed trees. Some spots grew like crazy and some spots are now dead. Some spots I filled in with the stuff several inches deep and sprigged with St Augustine. Again. Some spots grew like crazy and some died. There is a round circle (that was a low spot) that has been dead since the middle of summer after applying about one inch of this mix. It was thriving and is now dead. Slowly the St Augustine is creeping back in past its dead brothers. I expect that by next year I will have lush grass there again.

I think what squeeze said makes sense. Many of the people who claim the absurdity of unfinished compost being dangerous seem to use it only as a top dressing. Even the lasagna gardeners talk of planting in new beds. But how deep are they? Where are the roots of the plant? In unfinished compost, or just below the unfinished compost? I know gonefishin mentioned tilling some in (I enjoy the pictures), but what percentage of the soil is unfinished compost after tilling? I think it might make a difference. Maybe experienced gardeners like gonefishin would only apply one inch of OM and till, someone like me might think four is the right amount, that being the real problem. Maybe the argument comes from peoples definition of unfinished compost. That picture I linked above could be called ground wood dust by some, while I was calling it unfinished compost. I dont know for sure. I do know that I have had negative results from using what I call unfinished compost and therefore I agree with those who say there is risk involved with using it.

Sandy, someone convinced against their will is of the same opinion still.

I'm talking about surface applied organic matter only.

Vance, I would be mostly speculating, but I think that you do have a clue on some of the difficulties. There are many kinds of stuff called compost because of the variety of the components used to make it. Some of those trees may have been harder to compost than others, some might have even been Black Walnut and contained Jugalone or something, but in the long run a moderate amount might not have had the same effect as a big dose of it. I got a trailer load of "mostly" finished compost from our closest municipal composting facility the first year that they were in operation and offered it. Where I backed the trailer into the garden and dumped the load (roughly 4 cubic yards), and let it set for a few days while I worked on spreading it by hand, there was a round circle in the spring where the plants were stunted some and a little yellow. They were just not as healthy looking and did not produce as well as the rest of the garden. I side dressed a little with some nitrogen (which I do not necessarily like to do) and it helped some but did not totally fix the problem. This lasted a couple of years before the soil corrected it's self. I never did figure it out, don't know if they had put some kind of liquid starter on the stuff which leached out and was soaked up by the ground, or if there may have been some herbicide residue from grass clippings used to make it, or what. What ever it was, the higher concentration in that one spot affected the plants, where the rest of the area was not affected.

I never have any similar problems whatsoever with my home made compost or other ammendments that I add to my garden. What sometimes seems to be a huge amount when added, really does not amount to a very high percentage of the total soil in the garden unless you just really over do it. Then, there is that fact that most plants have much more extensive root systems that reach far deeper than most realize, provided the soil is such that they can, according to the interesting study linked below.

I think that the years of ammending and following the program that I am doing has changed the clay beneath my topsoil to the point tht it holds nutrients and moisture leached down into it much better than it originally did and that the plants roots take advantage of that. But that is just my take on it.
But then again, my little bit of St. Augustine tends to want to grow where I don't want it to grow, and resists growing where I would like to have it. ":^)
Bill P.

I always throw a thin (1") layer of soil on top is a small spot when I start seeds on pure 1/2 finished compost or lasagna. That's the usual recommendation. Works like a charm.

I've dug 1/2 finished compost in, layed it on top, side dressed with it, thrown it on my lawn, and grown in pure 6-12" beds of it. Never had a problem.

After one good hot cycle there's not much of the greens that isn't about broken down- the bits in my my 1/2 finished compost are mostly browns and some small bits of hay. No- I don't have rotting pasta and smelly potatoes in it. YMMV I suppose- maybe my soil etc are amenable to this more than others?

... obviously all compost is not the same, all ingredients put into compost are not the same. Using the phrase "lasagna bed" without telling us what is in there doesn't really mean much. If one were to use fresh cattle or pig manure as a compost or lasagna bed ingredient, not achieve required temps and didn't cure, that might be asking for trouble. I wouldn't eat raw cauliflower (sp?) grown in such "compost" even though it might look great, others might. A radish I can wash off enough but I still probably wouldn't eat it. New people to composting appear to be uncomfortable with half rotten anything in the compost. If I bought some compost that had half rotten vegetables in it, I would be peeved myself.

When pablo or Bill P or anyone else uses the term "unfinished compost" does that have the same meaning to paulns, Vance or Bill/Squeeze? I would suspect not. That is a major problem with the internet as a form of communication. If I were composting carcasses of diseased animals and told you it was "unfinished compost" would you still use it for growing your food? How about if I composted some rodents killed with poison? Some might, but I wouldn't.

Do what you are comfortable with but please don't mock or denigrate those that are not at your level of comfort or knowledge. Doing so only reflects badly upon all of us. There are many people reading these posts that do not enter the conversation. We ought to be somewhat respectful of those of differing opinions. We must keep in mind that each and every one of us has a picture in our own mind when we post, but that picture could be totally different to someone else.

Lloyd

LLoyd, I quote you
"Do what you are comfortable with but please don't mock or denigrate those that are not at your level of comfort or knowledge."

I went back and and tried to find who was mocking or denigrating?

...but that's the impression I got from a few posts, not just on this thread. If you wish me to be more specific, e-mail me and we can carry on this conversation elswhere. Sorry for interrupting your thread Sandy.

Lloyd

By 'pugnacious' - or should it be 'pugilistic'? - I was referring to Jeannie who is absent from this thread - so far.

I can think of two cases where immature compost harmed plants: one friend who used spent mushroom-growing medium made up mainly of chicken manure, sawdust and lime, and a friend who bought for his market gardens a truckload of fishplant waste compost made mainly of shellfish waste and sawdust. In both cases the compost was still 'hot', and impaired plant growth.

These are extreme examples, I know. Very high C/N stubborn carbon mixed with very low C/N volatile nitrogen.

Mushroom compost can be high in salt.

Ok that is a given in if you have a hot compost don't plant in it. Heck it will burn the plants. However to spread it out over a fallow garden and either lightly dig it in or just let it lay on there a few months before you plan on planting I don't see how it would hurt anything. From what Jeannie was saying is to never put in unfinished compost into a garden because the soil will lack in nitrogen. I don't know but maybe I was wrong in how I read her posts. But I don't see how that can happen being as what causes compost to be hot is the high nitrogen in the ingredents.
I don't know anything about mushroom compost, never had it, or had access to it.
I have a flowerbed that last fall after I got done with the clean out I laid out a 1 to 2 inch layer of unfinished compost, another 2 or so inches of horse stall cleanings then another thick (2+ inches)layer of shredded leaves. So all together I would say there is around 6 inches of unfinished compost out there. I then planted some pansies in there. They are still doing good, still blooming. We had a nice ice/snow fall not to long ago. It was funny that this bed was free of the ice/snow before the rest of the yard was. So I would have to say that it is heating up more than the grassy areas. But I guess not enough to hurt the pansies which like cool temps, soil and air temps.
Sandy

"But I guess not enough to hurt the pansies which like cool temps, soil and air temps."
Sandy, don't you love it when nature works for you? I think it was probably a combination of the stall cleanings (for the heat) and the two inches of leaves acting as a mulch to hold that warmth in. If you have a soil thermometer, I would check it against your other beds. But I am a curious person :). Thanks for sharing, I found your post very interesting and will keep it in mind for future use.

As far as unfinished HOT compost. I have never used it. The unfinished compost I use is a pile in which the center of it has cooled to ambient temps and actually needs more greens to finish. If I have an immediate need to use it in the garden, I do it then. If not, I add more greens and let it decompose further. This past summer in July, I dug a trench in a raised bed. Then I put a 1-2 inch layer of unfinished compost in the bottom of the trench and set tomato plants directly on top of that. I back filled with the soil I had removed then put an inch layer of the unfinished compost on top then a 2 inch layer of mulch. I posted many pics of my harvest on the vegetable forum. I've never had a harvest that large. I don't know why it worked so well, I just know it did so I will be trying it again. I may have had the same results with finished compost, I don't know. I didn't have any at the time so I used this method.

Kristi

Let's address the question of my throwing down the gauntlet.
Pablo made an unqualified answer in the affirmative to the use of such in gardens. .....and I put it to him that the practice should not be used because it is dangerous to plants and is not good for the soil.

I suggested Pablo show from a person...persons..in the know...about such practice of using unfinished compost for plants.

Now someone coming in here and saying "look, I just had the greatest tomatoes I ever had ...and I used unfinished compost...compost that was hardly out of the kitchen"

That says absolutedly nothing. For Paulns is satisfied by Pablo's saying what success he has had and why should he doubt the viability of such statement. Why indeed. Do I trust Pablo to tell us of his success using such material. Do I have to make a determination here....can I just throw up eyes in disbelief or shake my head. Do we all just accept the fox in the chicken house saying he's just there to admire the eggs.

Since the subject is so very easily found on countless websites, I have to wonder where the argument FOR using such material comes from.

"Should unfinished compost be used in our gardens?". Notice I do not hem in the use by suggesting young plants, or in a vegetable garden....if it is wrong in those places, then it just naturally follows that it has something against it.

Websites: How about
1. Ohio State University...OSU.edu.hsc
2. I'll make it easier.....try putting into your browser
"compost"....about
3. Cornell.edu.
4. MSU.edu

University of Saskatchewan has a fine soil management department....since most of the world's finest wheat comes from there, I think such a site is one to be trusted to give an honest appraisal.

I hesitate to give exact addresses...because somebody will just say I directed my question to where it supported my argument.
So, do find your own sources....and come back with an address that specifically answers the question in the "FOR" use of unfinished compost.

Then, hopefully we can put this question to bed...and not bring it up again. But do I believe that....
"Are the Blue Jays going to win the World Series in '07?"

Jeannie,

May I suggest you take another look at the post before you throw quotation marks around your interpretations of what has been written?

As for your stance on this issue....Why don't you just not use unfinished compost. You've made your opinion quite clear so we "get it". A great harvest may mean nothing to you, but it does to me. People come here to hear what other gardeners have to say. So if what you say "That says absolutedly nothing" is true, then there is no purpose to this website since we can all just do a search and find all of the answers we need. I for one, come here to ask questions of those who might have similar situations to mine. I never said that unfinished compost is the only answer to successful gardens, only that it worked for me. If I had had finished compost at the time I would have used it. I didn't and I posted what the results were. If you choose to believe that anyone and everyone who posts success in using unfinished compost is a liar, well I guess that's your right....just seems kind of weird though.

"can I just throw up eyes in disbelief or shake my head". Of course you can, I guess I could too.....It just doesn't really mean that much to me that you don't use unfinished compost. I'm sorry, I am unable to make myself upset about that. I hope the fact that there are those of us who DO use it doesn't ruin your holiday season, that would be a shame.

By the way, while you were surfing the web, did you ever find any information on the various "waiting" periods that you have stated are required prior to adding ingredients to our compost piles?

Kristi

Kristi's post says something to me, she was kind enough to bring me some of those tomatoes and peppers and here I am a couple of months later healthy with no signs of disease, deformity or behavioural changes.

I agree with her statement that this forum, like all the garden web forums are for communication about things of common interest, sharing knowledge and experiences. I have not seen one person appointed, or annointed on any of them as the resident expert to ram rod things, regardless of how much a few seem to want to be.

I have to admit to being somewhat confused by your appearance and radical statements, some of them seemingly controversial, or perhaps designed to stir up controversy, and whether you have some kind of an agenda or what is up with all this.
Bill P.

1. When I put that into the address bar, I got an error message:
Firefox can't find the server at osu.edu.hsc.

2. I assume you meant to use a search engine for that. Google turned up over a million hits. Most of the sites on the first page didn't refer to unfinished (or partly finished) compost at all. Those that did said that it might use nitrogen if worked into the soil, but would not be a problem if used as a mulch.

3. I found conflicting answers, although the differences seemed to be related to whether the compost was mixed into the soil, in which case they recommended it not be done unless it is done several months before planting; there didn't seem to be a concern when used as a mulch.

4. Most of the sites I found at MSU.edu that referenced unfinished compost repeated the same (exact) phrase and recommended against using unfinished compost "because it robs nitrogen from the soil."

I'm confused. You don't want to give URLs that support your contention. Instead you suggest sites (one of which is invalid) and search terms that lead to sites that mostly disagree with you, at least in part.

I did find references to long curing times, but they were directed at commercial operations and were curing times for packaged compost for retail sale. I also found one site that repeated the same admonition not to use unfinished compost because it robs nitrogen from the soil.

I don't understand why you are hesitating to point to an address that supports your views, and instead ask us to look through millions of pages. I didn't read through all of those pages (obviously), but most of the ones I found through your help at least partially contradicted you.

Maybe if you were less strident in your condemnation of the use of unfinished compost in all cases under all circumstances, people on the forum would be more inclined to give you more credence.

According to the websites I found through your help, there are times when using unfinished compost can be detrimental to the health of the plants. One such time is when the compost is still "hot." By that, I mean still high enough in Nitrogen that it can burn plants or it is still actively decomposing and is hot to the touch. Another example is when the unfinished compost is high in carbon and is incorporated into the soil shortly before planting time (or while plants are growing).

But from those same sites, a blanket statement that using unfinished compost is bad would be unsupported.

Here is the OSU composting website:
http://ohioline.osu.edu/com-fact/0001.html

and here is a direct quote from that website:
Compost is ready to use when it is dark brown, crumbly, and earthy-smelling. Let it stabilize for a few extra days and screen it through a 1/2" screen if you want the finest product for germination of seedlings. Compost generally should be at least 4-6 months old for use with plant seedlings. Apply a 1-2" layer of compost, and work it in well where you want to grow root crops. Leave it on the surface or work it into the surface 1-2" of the soil for most applications. It is best to keep organic matter near the soil surface. This is known as mulch gardening. It is much easier to control weeds in gardens mulched with compost between rows of plants. Compost used here also does not have to be as decomposed as that worked into seed beds.

Note the distinction made between seed germination/seedlings and using as a mulch for more established plants. Interestingly, nowhere in that website, which Jeannie is referring to support her contention, does it say that unfinished compost is dangerous to plants (other than seedlings) or that it will harm the soil.

The other statement made by Jeannie that I'd be interested in seeing some citations in support of is the following:

There is nothing worse than putting uncomposted vegetable matter in the vicinity of plants.

That just flies in the face of any conventional organic mulching practices, many of which utilize uncomposted vegetable matter, and all of which are considered to be of significant benefit to both the soil and the plants growing in it.

I am more than willing to give Jeannie the benefit of the doubt and attribute her sweeping generalizations to a rather narrow interpretation of a few isolated situations, but making adamant, blanket statements that she declines to support with valid citations is a bit much.

I had all intentions of staying out of this thread, for I have stated my opinion in the thread "Adding straight nitrogen to browns". In that thread a request was made to show "proof" that using partial composted compost was acceptable in organic gardening. A review of said thread will show only two people bothered to post such "proof", myself and the author of this thread, with both links ignored by the requester of said "proof". Maybe this was not good enough "proof", or possibly our contribution was not viewed as prestigious enough in name recognition. Whatever the case, let us see what happens with this attempt to qualify as "proof" enough.

Jeannie7,

As has been stated, the question of who you deemed as "they said" in another thread went unanswered. From all your previous threads for the last year, you have stated using manure less than one year old in a garden is "nasty". One is forced to conclude that "they" is really "you". As well, I have stated in many threads I agree with you on many of the opinions you have stated, for I too follow the same technique as you do. Nonetheless, you have continued to fail to produce a real "they" as you differ in the techniques others use. If I may be so forward, I found who "they" were for you. Keeping in mind your position of only qualified institutions need apply (The University of Georgia did not make your cut); from The Washington State University I offer this "they said":

"To reduce the risk of disease, we suggest these precautions:"

"· Wait 120 days from the time of applying fresh manure to the time of harvest of high-risk crops (those where the edible part is in contact with the soil: such as root and leaf crops and strawberries) if those crops are not always cooked. Wait at least 90 days for other crops. If you apply manure within 60 days of harvest, use only aged (for at least a year) or hot-composted manure.
· Never apply fresh manure after the garden is planted."

This does not quite fit with your statements, however I feel the intent was honorable, although "said proof" is not quite in line with your logic.

Upon further review of my sources I ran across information, although not from a university, may squeeze in under your cut. It comes from the author of the website Sovereignty Library; one of his long list of library links was used earlier in this thread concerning roots. If anyone had looked at the pictures (only 2) of Sweet Corn Roots, one would see that after 16 days the roots are below the level of 2 inches of any mulch added to the soil. After 8 weeks the roots are so massive any amendments added will only serve to feed the feeder roots of said corn. If one bothered to read the text of the page one could grow a crop anyone would be proud of.

Anyway, back to the author Steve Solomon; in his book "Organic Gardeners Composting" he offers this tidbit:

"Sheet Composting"
"Burying kitchen garbage is a traditional form of sheet composting practiced by row-cropping gardeners usually in mild climates where the soil does not freeze in winter. Some people use a posthole digger to make a neat six- to eight-inch diameter hole about eighteen inches deep between well-spaced growing rows of plants. When the hole has been filled to within two or three inches of the surface, it is topped off with soil. Rarely will animals molest buried garbage, it is safe from flies and yet enough air exists in the soil for it to rapidly decompose. The local soil ecology and nutrient balance is temporarily disrupted, but the upset only happens in this one little spot far enough away from growing plants to have no harmful effect."

It gets even better:

"Manure"
"When evaluating manure keep in mind the many pitfalls. Fresh manure is very valuable, but if you obtain some that has been has been heaped up and permitted to heat up, much of its nitrogen may already have dissipated, as ammonia while the valuable digestive enzymes will have been destroyed by the high temperatures at the heap's core. A similar degradation happens to digestive enzymes when manure is dried and sacked. Usually, dried manure comes from feedlots where it has also first been stacked wet and gone through a violent heating process. So if I were going to use sacked dried manure to lower the C/N of a compost pile, I'd evaluate it strictly on its cost per pound of actual nitrogen. In some cases, seed meals might be cheaper and better able to drop the heap's carbon-to-nitrogen ratio even more than manure."

You see Jeannie7; the real issue is C:N ratio when using compost. Letting manure sit for an extended period of time does not help to be kind, and is a real waste to be exact. Anything near 20:1 and some type of soil amendment should be added to limit "robbing" of nitrogen from the soil. If one is willing to wait for the ratio to reduce naturally there is no need for any additions other than what a crop may require for maximum growth. If a gardener is willing to accept whatever growth is achieved by compost alone, so be it for that gardener; the choice is up to the owner alone.

Alas, I have said more than I intended again, for this I do apologize. Some enjoy growing with a compost ratio of 10:1, some higher. Some enjoy sheet composting, lasagna beds, trench composting, or traditional methods of piles/bins. There is no one way, right way, your way, or my way, IALBTC or humus anyway

Blutranes

I have nothing to gain by lieing here Jeannie. I don't care if you believe me or not, or if you believe those that use MULCH (uncomposted OM), or lasagna.

Oh, and if you're suggesting that "experts" never just propagate dogma and that defering to an expert gets you a correct answer- then I just don't know what to say. Do you believe politicians, too?

:)

By the way- I'm a little confused by your statement "Do we all just accept the fox in the chicken house saying he's just there to admire the eggs. "

Huh? Do you think I'm SELLING something here or TRYING to screw up someone's garden, or what?

After that and statements about how home gardners cannot reliably make compost etc. in the recent past, I can only assume that you're a troll or just unhappy.

Either way- I hope that you find peace this holiday season. I'm pretty crass about holidays, but it seems like the thing to say :)

I'm sorry, my "better" link was broken, but I can fit that. Please use this better, it works better...

Blutranes

Jeannie, you seem to get very pugnacious on ANY topic to which she deigns to reply. You rarely offer helpful suggestions or even anecdotal evidence.

No one here but YOU claims to be an expert. People are here to offer their own experiences.

You can't even offer evidence to support your claims. Instead, you insist that 'they' say this and 'experts' say that, and then demand we all go do research to back up YOUR claims. You then ignore any research that says something that disagrees with you.

Gardening should be fun, and for most of the people on this forum, sharing with and learning from others is part of that fun.

If you aren't having fun, why are you here?

Why are you so angry all the time?

Try some sugar, because you have doused us all with vinegar.

I think all I can say to this is oh wow. Not really how I thought it would turn out, but ok.
I hope you all have a great holiday, don't forget to add all of your scraps from your holiday dinner to your compost pile.
Sandy

I suppose this would be a good time to point out that I had volunteer tomatoes come up in my compost bin. I added to the bin daily and they were the 1st toms to ripen, the best tasting ones, and the last ones to freeze to death.

Speaking of holiday dinner scraps, my pile really likes holiday cooking.

The bin gets heaping full of scraps this time of year. And I get to thinking that my bin is too full and the stuff is too frozen to add any more. And I wonder if I can make it to spring without starting a new bin. But then typically, we will have just a couple warm days. Then BAM, the frozen pile thaws just enough to get the whole pile cooking...in the middle of winter. And then it shrinks, in half by volume, in what seems like overnight. Just in time to make room for more stuff...

I usually delude myself that I'll get it cooking just in time to stay unfrozen all winter. Then winter drags on for 5 months...

This year- bigger piles, leaves for insulation, and lots of worms. maybe they'll do the job without having a hot pile.