I bought a giant 60 gallon plastic bucket thing from home depot, so everytime there is a large rain, I go out and fill it up with rainwater I collect from the gutter drains with smaller buckets. It usually fills up within minutes, and it's been a few months and it hasn't dried up yet, especially since the top is frozen. Good to have around especially when you don't want to waste precious water on compost, and also if you want some dechlorinated water for your worms

Here's my imperfect rain water collection system. I have a small sump pump that I can move from barrel to barrel to water my plants. It sure beats walking around with a watering can.
The screens are only to keep out debris and to prevent the drowning of birds. They aren't tight enough to keep out mosquitoes, but I think I use the water quickly enough that I haven't had a problem with that.
The barrels are set up so the water flows from one to the other with an overflow hose on the third one. The problem is during a heavy downpour, the first barrel can't keep up with the flow rate and overflows. I'm trying to get my DH at address that problem, but he's never home to see it actually happening. (Such storms don't happen that often, though)

{{gwi:318328}}

Hey Takadi,
Any problem with the plastic bin splitting due to frozen water? Don't know if metal barrels have any problems with freezing, although I wonder if the connectors/hoses would be prone to mishaps like that. I'm in zone 5 so temps sometimes go down to -15F and ice could do in plumbing between barrels, if not the barrels themselves.

North53 - that sump pump is a good idea. I like it. Now, not only do I want water 'way back by the compost, now I want power! *sigh* (Oh good grief, Kris, what next...windmills? ;-) )

Of course here in zone 1 I can't leave the barrels with water in them for the winter. I have to turn them upside down. It was -30C this morning, with who knows what wind chill.
The barrel connectors just slide on, so it's easy for me disconnect the whole set up. Metal barrels are very heavy to flip over, though. As I said, it's not perfect.
I can't recommend the pump enough though. It's perfect. DH installed a GFI breaker dedicated to it for me also.

g'day kris,

for me it is the use of a rainwater tank, the most economical way to collect a usable amount of water in one spot. our tank is 25k litre capacity, plenty of water for every use around our home.

len

Here is a link that might be useful: lens garden page

North53 - I'm glad you posted about your problems with your set up. Yours is what I had kind of envisioned when I was thinking about mine....the overflow part at least. I would have never dreamed that it wouldn't work during a big downpour if you hadn't said something.

Val

Val, I think the problem is the overflow pipe is much smaller than the downspout capacity, so during a heavy downpour the barrel overflows. Which is a bad thing since it is close to the house, and who needs extra water going to the weeping tile during a storm! (speaking from a bad experience here)
DH is planning to increase the size of the overflow pipes, but it hasn't happened yet.
During a normal rainfall it all works perfectly.

Say, North53, if the barrels were emptied (sumped out), would it work just as well to put a cover over them to keep rain/snow out during winter rather than try to turn them over? Just wondering....because that is what I'd kinda planned to do when I set up mine. I was hoping to put something in place that didn't need a lot of jockeying around between seasons. I'm not big enough to wrangle those things more than the initial setup, I'm thinking.

G'day, Len. I'm thinking it's nice and warm down under compared to up here these days.
Kris

Hmmm....I'm wondering now which one would work best for me, the gravity feed kind like what Paul put together (shown in a different thread) or the overflow fed one that North is showing.

Sometimes we do get quite a bit of pretty hard rain. Dang it, more decisions to make :-)

Val

Val, I hear you. I'm also hoping Robert will share his cinder block rainwater container technique to add to our choices to consider... ;-)
Kris

It took me about 20 minutes to find this and I hope he doesn't mind me showing it but here is Len's rainwater tank. Holy mama!

If only.....if only....

Val

Here is a link that might be useful: {{gwi:318327}}

Well, folks - thank you very much for your input, so let's investigate your options.

As a professional (you can check my credentials on www.arcsa.com - Robert Moore), please first consider the cost-effectiveness issue, since when all is said-and-done, that's really the bottom-line of what you can do.

Secondly, the "best way" is relative to YOUR specific needs - same as composting.

When regarding cost, it's really a matter of SPACE - so let me 'lead off' with this thought:

A HOLE in the ground is, and has always been the most cost-effective method of water containment.

Yes, there are MANY other methods - but let's take time to investigate the 'cheapest' one first...

Holes need space, and holes cost money and/or time...
Which is 'money'. But a shovel in the hands of property owner is cost-effective, if the energy-level is 'up to it'.

So find out what the cost is for a back-hoe per hour (there's usually a minimum) in your area (get three estimates). I was kidding about the shovel, unless a tractor cannot 'get to' where you want a hole dug. Then it's a Chiropractor or 'young son' issue.

The simple equation we're working with here (and just take my professional word for it for now) - holes cost a LOT LESS PER GALLON of storage space than any other method, AND are NOT affected by freezing. Holes are useful in EVERY month of the year, and can be completely out of sight (covered with soil/grass).

So you folks in cold climes, double-think this through.
That being said, a koi/goldfish pond can be a very attractive addition to any landscape, even a back yard.

And holes can have a number of different kinds of covers.
Safety and aesthetics is an issue, of course, but let's leave the type of cover for later. Many options.

And liners may be needed depending on the type of soil you have - but again, let's defer discussion of that issue to later and focus on the space issue first. Many options.

Even if you elect to do the 'barrel or above-ground tank thing', you need a place to put them, and then we'll get into the 'volume of water needed' issue (for what you want to use the water for), later. Still talking about space here...

So let's do this step-by-step, so folks who enter into this thread later, can pick up on it and follow, without getting confused.

So first, think about whether there is a place on your property for a hole - 5 feet deep. Doesn't matter how far away from your garden it is. Doesn't matter about circumferential dimension now - only consider depth.

And be thinking about water volume for later discussion. Go online (or call your local newspaper or radio station) and determine what the annual rainfall (including snowfall) is for YOUR particular local area - because that's what we have to work with.

And how the water (usually shallow trenching called a 'swale') which will usually need grass afterward - will get rainwater runoff to the hole in the ground, and effective run-off if the hole is full and more rain falls. See, ground collection will beat roof footprint for volume EVERY time, for volume of gallons collected from one rain event.

The main issue for you to consider is: BUDGET. $$ Planning what is best for you is an individual issue - we're just contemplating 'generalities' at this point.

If you don't have any money to do anything, don't fret.
There are ways. Will talk about those things later too.

For you folks that a hole in the ground is not an option, please be patient. We'll get to other techniques soon.

Third, I'm not the only RWH professional, and you may have one in your area, or find another one online that you can 'bounce' second opinions and ideas off of without spending $$.

So let's see questions about putting holes in the ground, and we'll move on from there...

Robert

arcsa.com goes to Argentina site, perhaps you meant .org?

Here is a link that might be useful: ARCSA

OOPS !! www.arcsa.org is correct - slip of the brain...
Thanks so much for catching that - dang, you're sharp!

Robert,
I've often wondered about an underground tank of some sort, but still, freezing would still be an issue.
Waterlines in the ground are constantly freezing up here during the winter. They are at least 10 feet deep.

Hey kiddo

Yea some of my smaller older buckets have split and cracked due to the freezing, but the big ol bucket I bought is made of extremely thick plastic, so I'm not too worried about it splitting

I really wish I did have some sort of automated system though with a pump

North53--Can you give us some perspective? Where I live, it rarely gets below 0 F (about -18 C). But I grew up in the midwest, where it often dropped to about -20F (-29C). I was on a project in Phoenix, AZ once and people wore heavy parkas when the temperature dropped to 40F (7 C).

How cold is cold in zone 1b?

Len, HOLY COW! *weep*
Kris

g'day val,

don't mind you showigt the pic at all.

for us water is one of thse issues you need to rate in your life, ie.,. how important is water and for us it is seen as a necessity so we, out of our tight household budget gave it the importance we felt it needed. we use our water for all of house as well as gardens, so we are sufficient enough so as to be able to turn off the town supply.

we also have drums/barrels like pictured above but we have plastic drums and a very simple setup (also shown on our site), the drums are fully sealed (so no mosquito problems or any other contaminations) and we have no overflow issues, even where we have 2 drums coupled together (no pic of that one but i could show one if needed).

we see lots of effort put into drum systems but at the end of the day not very much water is being collected. our drum water gets used for the laundry mostly, and we have 5 drums in play. the tank may seem expensive (around $2kAUD) but it is only ever a one up purchase, never needs replacing.

remember water finds its own level so there is no real need to set up sytems in descending order gravitationaly that is, everything can be on the same level. also with open systems as above you realy can't be flash storm ready no system can be all you can do is set up for what happens normally, and have safeguards for those flash storms.

len

Here is a link that might be useful: lens garden page

Robert,
I understand the benefits of a swale-filled reservoir, be it above ground like a pond or as a covered 'cistern'. The amount of water that could be collected from 'regular' rains would most likely far outweigh (or out-volume) what could be collected from roofs. Last summer, though, our rain was so sparse that I imagine my lawn and gardens soaked up every drop. No puddles, no rivulets. The only real runoff I had was from my roofs. And this is about the 3rd year in a row we've had our state show up on the low-end of the 'drought' picture on the weather channel.

The irony is, with a pond or cistern, it seems you need more dependable rain to fill it, and if you get more dependable rain, you don't need it. I may be missing something here (wouldn't be the first time... ;-) ).

Anyway, looking forward to more on this subject! Thanks.
Kris

Kris,

The primary point of a hole, was cost effectiveness on a per/gallon storage basis, delivered by a larger area than rooftops.

If lawn/garden soaked yours all up, then at least the rain was used instead of running off. A hard surface collection for later use, is a beneficial method for dispersment to areas of choice, but is often insufficient to hold the quantity provided by a good rain event. Such was my case with overflowing barrels on one day, but empty barrels the next day.

Nobody on the post yet, has mentioned the VERY efficient method of STACKING barrels on top of each other...Vertical space is something EVERYBODY has under their gutter. Can be easily done with plastic OR metal barrels that don't leak. Doubles containment volume without taking any more horizontal space. Same reason most commercial RWH tanks are tall.

About my first excavation:
Florida sand doesn't hold water, so my first backyard 'pond' had a liner of 10' wide black PVC-type sheeting glued together twice at overlapping 12" seams, then taped with 2" wide tape.

Should mention that I had a big advantage back in those days, in that my dad was a retired chemical research scientist with Dow Chemical (Freeport Division) - who was primarily responsible for inventing the gel permeation chromatography process - that (with Waters Company), made it possible to manufacture the first plastic sheeting. The glue was some of his 'special stuff' (yeah, I'm proud of him - and he's the reason I still do wierd experiments with compost and stuff - he started teaching me to compost when I was 6 years old).

Back to the subject:
Cut the sheeting to fit the 'lay' starting at one end of the 'pond' and working my way out of the conical-shaped hole at the other end (wrinkles don't matter). About a 2:1 pitch (45 degree slope). Then threw in a layer of sand on top of the sheeting at the bottom to hold the liner in place.

Had to start over once, 'cause I forgot to dig trench entrances into pond first. Then buried the top plastic edges with a thick ring of sand.

Dug narrow 12" deep trenches to the excavation from adjacent property, lined them with plastic too, then replaced sand (so the surface sloped), then replaced the st.augustine grass 'sod'.

Later experience provided a better method, but was concerned then about holding water in the sandy trench, to get water to the little pond before it soaked up in the sandy trench.

In that south central Florida (Lake Placid) area, we would get a fairly regular 'afternoon' rainshower, but not sufficient to keep my 1,600 gallon backyard 'reservoir' filled from narrow swales to adjacent property with the amount of water I used from it for compost, plus lawn, garden, flower beds and trees (planted in sand, of course). All our compost went to the garden to retain moisture.

Solved that issue by using a sump pump set in a depression in a nearby storm water drainage ditch (that collected runoff from about 4 acres) with a 125' of hose to my pond - both electric cord and hose buried underground a couple of inches, dug with a hoe. Pump sensor turned it on only when there was water in the ditch. Where there's a will, there's a way.

Overflow from the pond went back to the storm drain, so sometimes had to disconnect the pump to keep from just circulating water.

Simple and effective, and all done with a shovel over the course of a bit over 2 months. Rigged an easily-moved 'gin-pole' with a hand winch to drag a plywood sled/box filled with sand, out of the hole.

After that, had enough rainwater water for garden and all other plantings almost year-round.

The whole project cost about $100 for plastic, glue and tape (back in early '83) and was still holding water fine when sold the home in '91 - though it did have multiple claw holes near the top edges from neighborhood dogs climbing out after a swim.

Was a big point in selling the house - reckon I made about $5K off that $100 and sweat.
By then it was pretty - lined with colored cement blocks with high edging (to keep leaves out) and walkways, etc. Never did determine if any of the nearby trees got roots into it, but if so, roots must have filled the holes they made.

My latest 'dig' is 77,000 gallons in solid clay (needs no liner) all done with a little 12" backhoe on my tractor with 7' reach. 5' at deepest, 'cause I hit a saltwater table - we live at water's edge on a bay, a few miles from the coast. One single rain event filled the pond to overflowing in 3 hours - 'cause 6 acres drain to it. Overflow from the pond goes into the bay.

Been in a bad drought here for about 6 months, and still have 7-8,000 gallons in the pond. I use a LOT of water for my wholesale compost operation and plant nursery, so hope it rains soon. Most livestock ponds around here have dried up.

Our water well water turned out to be too salty, and loaded with bad chemicals from a nearby Reynolds Aluminum 'settling' pond - R/O unit was not advised after professional consultation - so we had no choice but to go the rainwater harvest route.

So I designed and constructed a 50,000 gallon steel-reinforced concrete RWH cistern (44' x 44' x 4' deep) for the house slab to sit on top of. Could not locate a contractor or engineer to take that project on, so did it myself with 2 professional concrete-worker helpers (who brought in more help to handle the concrete pours).

Getting our house windstorm engineer to certify the under-house cistern structure was an interesting process.

I have photos from the first shovel of dirt. Far as I can tell, it's the largest under-residence cistern in Texas. The house is 6" thick solid concrete walls too, using ICF. Framing for the 2" concrete roof started going on last week. We won't worry about hurricanes and tornados.

Been living in our 30' RV for 2 years while developing the property pretty much by myself, and hauling-in water weekly. Got electric service now, but probably won't have any other 'normal' utilities out here in my lifetime. We are WAY out in the 'boonies' - but the view at water's edge, peace & quiet and abundant wildlife make it worth every trial...Have one neighbor about a half mile away.

Will be able to quit hauling water after gutters and downspouts are installed on the house - after it rains again. Annual rainfall here is supposed to be 30" - but this year we're way, way behind...

Calculated to take 2.3 years to fill the house cistern to overflowing based on rainfall and our water needs. After that, the cistern will contain a 1.5 year supply.

Due to this drought though, I'm installing piping from the pond to the house (about 500') as a secondary source of water. Being a RWH professional, I know how to treat pond water properly for potable use - but don't have a pump that will push water that far yet.

Robert

Hi Robert. I think stacking barrels is a great idea and would store a lot more water in a smaller area. I never would have thought of that! I'm going to assume that I would need a little more foundation than, say, some 24"x24" pavers. Probably about 6" of concrete? Where I'm going to put barrels is right now bare dirt. Or maybe I could just level it off and lay down boards (decking boards made of recycled plastic and wood so they would never rot or warp) and put the barrels on that. What do you think?

My question with double-decking like that...would you fill all the bottom barrels before putting water to the top? Or would you somehow let the water from the bottom barrels 'well up' into the top barrels so when you put a tap in the bottom barrels, the top water drains out from the same faucet?

I'm scoping out some local car washes to see if I can deal on empty soap barrels... Figure its a good time to line up my ducks for spring.

Keep your fingers crossed for me. :-)
Kris

Kris,

Stacking barrels is EASY, no matter WHAT their shapes.
Purchase at least three 8' long 1" x 2" TREATED lumber.

The 'tricky' part is setting the lumber strips initially.
Duct tape is the anwer:
Make sure that the upper/lower barrels have spigots installed already and are painted if desired.

Set them in place (one on top of the other).
Water overflow in ONE TOP barrel ONLY.

If the barrels are straight-sided (like metal drums), simply duct tape the barrels together where they join, then follow the firring strip procedure around the lower; thin 'bulge'; also where the two barrels join; and at the top thin 'bulge' line.

IF the 2 barrels are 'bulge-type', then attach the firring strips with tape equidistant apart around, at the center 'bulge' of the bottom barrel, and wrap the entire bottom barrel around the middle so all 3 pieces of wood are secured vertically around the middle of the bottom barrel.

If 'bulge' type barrels, the firring strips will 'stick out' away from the top of the bottom barrel (where it joins with the top barrel), but the firring strips should be snug against the middle sides of the top barrel. If not, circle tape around the wood strips at the level where the two barrels join to pull the strips in a bit, but not too much. The vertical firring strips should remain pretty much vertical, but with good contact to both bottom and upper barrel.

Then wrap (3 turns) of duct tape around the MIDDLE sides of the top barrel. Do NOT attempt to secure the wood strips to the top of an upper 'bulge' barrel. Do NOT put screw through the wood into the barrel.

Cut wood strips to height of middle of top barrel first, if desired, for aesthetic reasons. 'Bulge' barrels should now be joined middle of bottom barrel to middle of the upper barrel.

Barrels full of water will not move anyway. The firring strips are mostly security for high winds, people bumping them, etc., when they are EMPTY.

Then cut a piece of hose to proper length to connect the upper spigot to the bottom spigot with some 'wiggle room'. Attach a female connector to BOTH ends of the cut hose and attach to upper and bottom spigots. Make sure both spigots are open.

The bottom spigot will need a "Y" adapter first, to get water out with another hose.

If 4 barrels are used, the 4th (upper) barrel must have an air vent (overflow), but can be only a small hole that can be plugged with a screw if used elsewhere later.

Multiple vertical barrel "sets" must be connected by top and bottom spigots also, which will require the "Y" adapter from the first set, to the bottom spigot of the next 'set'. All barrel spigots may be interconnected with "Y" adapters, to increase water flow between barrels.

Connect as many barrels as you have room for.
For a 3-barrel "set" make sure that the 3rd (single) barrel has NO openings except for the spigot at the bottom.

2 stacked 55-gallon barrels = 110 gallons of water = 924 pounds, or 950 pounds with barrel weight. Purchase a 24" square pad of lightweight cement (usually a foam form) from Home Depot, Lowes or such, made to sit burn barrels on. Make sure the area is level. Gravel layer on top of ground is a good idea.
If you cannot locate a cement pad, simply join strips of TREATED 2" x 6" lumber to support the barrels.

Duct tape does not last 'forever'. For a longer-lasting method, tie a piece of 1/4" or 3/8" nylon rope around the barrels on top of duct tape strips (use tape to hold the rope in position). Insert a stick between the barrel and rope. Twist the stick (or whatever is used) to twist the rope tight. Hold the stick horizontally with a strip of duct tape across both ends of the stick. Then tape over the rope/stick at least 2 turns with tape to hold it tight to the barrel so it does not slip. This takes the tension off the tape, so it has just an aesthetic function from then on.

Some folks like to use white or colored vinyl tape instead of gray duct tape. For blue barrels use blue plastic tape, etc.

Plastic barrels can be painted too, if you 'scuff' them well first, with 80-grit sandpaper. Paint before attaching them together as a "set".

Questions?

If no questions regarding stacked barrels, you might initiate a message about using larger above-ground water contaiment since it seems nobody is interested in a hole-in-the-ground rainwater containment? Your call...

Robert

I'll post a new thread about above-ground water containment. We can always cut/paste the stacked-barrel process in that thread. Hopefully we'll get more pics of folk's rainwater containment systems (like north53's neat setup).
Kris

Per North's Picture of three barrels:

Wouldn't it be better to have the connecting tubing at the bottom rather than at the top for the barrels? That way the three barrels would have almost the same amount of water in them. You could drop a small submerged pump in the middle barrel, leave it there, and have one exit fitting leading to a garden hose.

And the head pressure would be a bit more if you wished to dispense with the submerged pump.

1. OT: Robert, do you have a clone? I need you/him in my life.

2. This link below is from an old gardenweb post to a blog that has a great visual for multiple stacked rain barrels.

Here is a link that might be useful: Multiple stacked rain barrels

Depends how you disperse your rain water after it is in the barrels, but if dipping buckets or watering cans into them, it is preferred to have one 55 gallon drum full rather than 3 of them one third full. There is the matter of getting the water OUT. It isn't just leaning over the side (and 55 gallons are tall) but lifting the water gets harder the further down you have to dip.

We have 5 rain water plastic storage containers. All but one is a 55 gallon drum, we got them all free. One is under a downspout. It has a faucet and hose at the bottom. When it seems like it will rain or is raining heavily, we will run the water through the hose to another 55 gallon barrel. Those are both completely open on the top. Two others are backup storage. Water is run via hose from the first into those when the secondary one is full. They only have a small opening, so the water in them has to be siphoned back into their more open neighbor to use it.

The fifth is a large sturdy wheeled garbage container, maybe 70 gallon size. Hubby carries water in 5 gallon buckets out to this container which is by my vegetable gardens. I dip into there to water plants. Slow but except for the faucet we attached to the bottom of the barrel under the downspout, it was all free. So this is our part to save the planet and not waste water, as we don't actually pay for our water supply per se. On the plus side, you get more exercise and you never worry that you have left the hose running. :-)

Marcia

Setting up a siphon is very easy and way better than dipping...I can empty a whole barrel, through the top with a hose... submerge hose to get all the bubbles out, cover the end with your finger, lift out of barrel and down to the ground, watch water flow out of hose.... it goes pretty quick with a siphon.

Of course if the barrel is half empty you do have to reach down in to get the siphon started. But when the barrel is full or 3/4 full a siphon is the way to go...

But yes a spigot on the bottom would alleviate the need for a siphon or dipping, but like I said I wasn't confident in my ability to drill in a spigot into my wooden barrel, that didn't leak, so I went with the siphon out of the top mode.

Joepyeweed...........think bulkhead fittings. If it works for the shipping industry, it should work for us.

I'm adding this site that has some really nice rain barrels as well as the compression bulkhead fittings that I like.

Here is a link that might be useful: The Rainwell

You got to see this one ! You don't even see the barrels because it is covered with a brick patio that collects the rain thru the cracks in the bricks!

www.brickpatio.blogspot.com

Any more wacky ideas than this ?!!

Here is a link that might be useful: brick patio that stores rainwater.

Oh that's fabulous! I wish my yard allowed for that. That's the same guy on my link above with the stacked rain barrels.

there are some innovative ideas presented but at the end of the day one needs to sit down and work out how important water is in your life. eg.,. if you live in drought ridden country wwith low rainfall then it is going to be more imprtant than someone who lives where they get sufficient annual rainfall.

to me drums/barrels just won't deliver in low rainfall areas, we have drums as well as a rainwater tank cap' 25k/litre-5k/impgal. that allows us continual water in our current drought conditions where we are still getting a below average 1100mm to 1300mm annual rainfall. so if you get less than that then you need more storage than what we have.

and in those wetter aeas who still need some storage then nothing less than a 1k/impgal tank will store good water more so than drums.

small tanks fill fast but they also empty fast so in a dry period can be empty a long time, see very many samll tanks installed where there is room for more substantial sized tanks.

len

Here is a link that might be useful: lens garden page