I have had alot of luck getting a hot pile by using coffee grounds.

In is much better than 'on'.

One year old dung is already compost in my neck of the woods. You can plunge your face right into it and smell the fresh fragrance of a forest floor after a rainstorm. I wouldn't expect it to heat up a pile.

Fresh manure is what gets the pile going. Bury it inside and add more dry leaves on top to keep the smells in.

You'll want to browse the many discussions here on using manures - both fresh and aged/composted - but yes, you can add fresh manure to your compost pile IF you plan to let it compost a safe amount of time eg: 4-6 months. If you plan to use the compost sooner then adding fresh isn't generally recommended. This is not to say it isn't done, just not generally recommended.

As Robert said above, even aged manure can get a pile cooking but the key is IN, rather than ON. And, of course, the good ole C:N ratio of the pile as a whole has to be balanced to get cooking going regardless of what you add. ;)

Dave

Hi Brandond - My composting compatriots voicing comments in this post are all correct to some extent, and several are quite knowledgable and experienced. Don't mean to appear contradictory at all, but would like to specifically address your main issue of: '...want some more heat in my pile...". So going to interject some scientific information into 'old-style' methodology - check out: http://www.compostinfo.com/tutorial/Glossary.htm#Organic
for Mesophillic (also spelled ---phyllic), Psychrophilic and Thermophilic, and: http://www.compostinfo.com/tutorial/index.htm
Heat in a pile is PRIMARILY caused by one large group (many different strains) of fungus. These fungi are called thermophyllic (heat-loving - Greek) because when they reproduce by the billions in a pile, they create significant heat that initiates breakdown of hard-to-decompose cellulose and lignin. A 20" compost thermometer will record up to 200F. The hottest pile I ever 'cooked' (an experiment) registered 176 degrees F. But took longer to decompose, 'cause the heat killed all the other microbe populations that were supposed to 'take their turn' later in the decomposition cycle. I didn't know about re-innoculating with fresh compost 'tea' way back then.
Thermophyllic fungi mostly 'eat' sugar and carbohydrates, NOT carbon and nitrogen. When the sugar/carbs are depleted, the pile no longer remains hot, because of diminished reproduction - then mesophyllic fungi and bacteria take over, and begin consuming/changing the carbon and nitrogen elements of the pile material. Then later, Psychrophilic fungi in their due time, but at much lower temperatures (55F - 65F). When you put 'finished' compost ON (dressing) or IN the ground (amendment), it is not really finished. The compost will continue to decompose until only humus (almost pure carbon) remains. Humus is the permanent 'conditioner' of soil that lasts for many generations. Google the word 'humus' and find out. Science does not yet know how Mother Nature does it -but science knows that she does.
If you want a pile to heat up, grow heat-generating fungi and bacteria with watered-in molasses, honey, dark brown sugar, and starches such as powdered grains, etc. Especially in a 1st turn, before the pile cools below 105F, to regenerate heat-producing microbes that stopped reproducing (usually) because of a lethal (to microbes) CO2 buildup in the pile (microbes assimilate oxygen and respire CO2 that can kill 'em dead). Turn the pile too late, and you basically start re-heat all over again (and piles should heat twice). For continuous-add (CA) piles, adding more fresh sugar/starch material (fresh manure/grass included) is the answer to re-heat, but for finish-to-harvest (FH) piles, depleting microbes by turning too late, is especially not good. Loose slurry of dry molasses (powdered grain pellets sprayed with molasses) is the best re-heat method I know of, for cool FH piles, regardless of C:N ratio.
C:N ratio is not a major factor in a new-build pile during initial heat. Manures and grasses DO have sugars and starches aplenty. When those are depleted, the pile will NOT heat back up to any appreciable degree without adding fresh material with sugars/starches in them.
I use both aged and fresh manures (mostly fresh) layered with grass clippings/hay and my 5' x 7' 2-ton piles are 'finished' in 4 months tops, with three turns about one month apart. I rotate 5-6 piles, producing a bit over 2,000 pounds of (dry weight) 'finished' compost a month. I'm a certified Texas Master Gardener, teach composting methods and operate the public demonstration composting operations for a 2-county Texas AgriLife Extension agency. My compost and compost 'tea' is regularly analyzed by Texas A&M's Soil Laboratory. However, am partial to Florida's website presentation due to simplicity and organization.
But remember, heated piles are not the end-all, only the beginning. If you continue to heat a pile, the mesophyllic fungi will not be able to 'do their job' properly. Mother Nature has been decomposing organic material for millions of years. All you are doing is trying to speed up her natural process. But don't try to change it - learn to go WITH her 'flow' - or she'll work against you. And she ALWAYS wins in the end - even if you kill her work with chemicals (like chlorinated water) - it just takes her longer than usual.

Soilguy - have you ever thought of using spacing between your paragraphs? While you type a lot of information, it's hard for these old eyes to read. White space is your friend.

Val

Not a manure guy but I do a wee bit of composting of yard trimmings. This past summer I tried using wheat straw (non-shredded) as the main (and pretty well exclusive) Carbon source in the tumblers. For some reason, I got some heat, but not the long lasting 140-160F kind I got when I used mostly leaves. What does this mean? Beats me! And I am not saying that that is the problem, just pointing out what happened to me.

Next summer I am going to shred the stuff first and try it again. (Never claimed to be a jeenius).

Anyways Brandon, if your pile has the C, N, H20 and O2, it will decompose. Too many unknown variables to say why it isn't hot, and even if we knew those variables, we would only be guessing as to why it's not hot. Anybody that claims to definitely know the answer, is likely pulling your leg. (but I mostly agree with Dave on this one)

Lloyd

P.S. Val, I couldn't read it very easily either, we must be the same age!

Lloyd,

My eyes feel like they are 75 years old
My back feels like it's 100 years old
My brain hovers around age 10 usually
and my mouth is around that smarta** 15 year old stage.

If you average it...that's me ;-)

Val

let's see...

75, plus 100, plus 10, plus 15, divided by 4, carry the one, insert a vowel, let Y equal X, cosine of the tangent...

I come up with fifty! Hey, I'm forty nine, we are close!

Lloyd

Well it certainly has been hot at different times. I do turn it about once a week or every other week. I have put lots of nitrogen in the pile which is about 4 ft tall by 4 ft deep and 10 ft long. I have place coffee grounds, fish scraps, clover, grass clippings. So its got a large dose of nitrogen to go along with lots of straw, and leaves. Oh and I have place quite a bit of chicken crap in it. I imagine its just not matted down enough. Its got so much straw in it the pile aerates well. Certain parts of the pile are breaking down, so its decomposing.

Hi Brandon

That is similar to what happened to me. I used two bales of wheat straw straight into each of the tumblers. Added numerous bags of green grass and watered, tumbled lots. It got hot just like it normally did then phffft, nothing, just straw and grass mixed together.

Added more grass, shredded leaves and UCGs, tumbled, briefly got hot then nothing. After three months of this, I emptied them out and hung my head in shame. I blame the straw (no evidence to back this up though) as that was the only variable I changed. Like I said, next year I will shred the straw first.

I've used shredded straw mixed in with leaves in the past but never this kind of volume of straw.

Lloyd

I'm currently having a straw issue too. It wasn't shredded, it's been three or four months and it's still completely whole.

soilguy,
It's not often I see anyone distinguish between sugar/carbohydrates and carbon. I like it!

I believe a key reason for the mass confusion about compost is that carbon and nitrogen do not compost, yet all the discussion is about carbon and nitrogen. To further confuse the issue, someone invented browns and greens - euphemisms for carbon and nitrogen. I'll guarantee you that if you threw carbon dust on the ground and blew nitrogen gas into it, you are not going to get composting no matter what the ratios, how much water, and what microbes you have in with it.

Plants and animals as well as their byproducts compost. Another way of saying that is, "Food composts." You have to have protein (which contains nitrogen molecules) and carbohydrates (including sugar (any of the -oses like fructose, sucrose but even cellulose)), which contain carbon, before compost happens. Manure composts. It might not be food to humans but it is to the insects and microbes that extract nutrition from it. Once all that nutrition is extracted, in about a year, it is compost and can be handled safely or used in the garden.

I think the root of the problem is the amateur scientists trying to understand what the professional scientists are doing. The professionals find it easy and professionally helpful to weigh their ingredients and convert them into pounds of nitrogen and carbon. They need to do that so they can speak intelligently among their peers. But that information is meaningless to me. When they speak of carbon they know they are talking about sugars. They also know that not all sugars are the same. Nitrogen is protein. They know that, but they never speak of it. So when the amateurs come along behind them, they cannot track the whole carbons and nitrogens discussion because they missed the unspoken part about sugars and proteins.

Furthermore, for the scientists, ratios of the mass of "carbon" and "nitrogen" mean something. But they mean nothing to us because we don't weigh our ingredients. Who knows how many pounds of "nitrogen" and "carbon" are in my banana peels? More importantly, who CARES? If I was selling it I suppose I would try to optimize my ingredients, but I'm not. All I need to know is that along with regular watering, my banana peels will decompose in my pile of tree leaves to have something ready for the garden in the spring? When it smells good and is cooled off, it's finished.

Here are my rules for composting
1. Dump stuff on the ground (where Mother Nature does her composting)
2. Keep it moist but not saturated. I like misting nozzles.
3. If it smells bad, cover it with more tree leaves.
4. Don't turn the pile unless you like the exercise. It's a waste of time and might hurt the fungal populations.
5. If I see maggots, flies, worms, cockroaches, mosquitoes, ants, or other critters in the pile, leave them alone. They are composting stuff and leaving behind valuable nutrients for the microbes.
6. Everything goes into the compost. Over the years rats, birds, possums, squirrels, and even my dog have been buried in the pile.

This straw question is interesting. I've only had straw once in my compost pile 2 years ago. Used it on the garden all summer around the plants and in the walkways to cut down on the mud and splatter. When the garden was done, I raked up what was left and threw it in the compost pile.

Didn't have a garden last year because of moving to a new house but this year, I got a garden patch in late in the fall, covered it with straw, grass clippings and leaves for winter. I had planned to rake it up this spring and whatever was left throw it in the bin. I'm wondering now if I should run over it with a mower before I do that. I don't think I remember there being any trouble composting it 2 years ago though. I wonder if the difference is having had it on the ground first? Interesting.

Val

PS - Lloyd..you are correct. You get the cupie doll. Question: Do you think it's my age that makes the 15 year old smarta** come out? I only ask because you're close to my age and thought you might have some insight.

See, now I'm depressed, I thought composting was fun and now I learn it's all about science. You guys are downers.

I'm going to go clean the kitty litter (well I'm not really going to clean the kitty litter, I'm going to separate the feces and wet clumps from the dry, clay like, material and dispose of the waste matter), maybe do the dishes (well not really do the dishes, I'm going to immerse the unclean dishes in a large square shaped container (sink) filled with a mixture of dish soap and hot water thusly removing any unwanted material from said dishes making them suitable for containment of food matter again). Then after that I think I'll feed the cats (well not really feed the cats, I'll place some dehydrated animal by-products in a bowl and place upon the floor from whence the furry little four-legged mammals will gain sustenance).

Then after all that is done I might go bowl (well not really bowl but propel a spherical object in a rolling like fashion upon a long alley like area covered with wood slats so as to displace some conical shaped items in a controlled crash like fashion). Maybe drink a beer or two as well.

Lloyd

P.S. That is, if the DW lets me go bowling. :)

Val

For me age has nothing to do with it, I was always a smarta**!

Guys at work call me Mr. Mirth and Sunshine!

Lloyd

Now see Lloyd...even though your explanation about everything from cleaning the kitty litter to bowling was way to scientific for me.....your use of white space allowed me to at least read it.

I did learn one thing however....you're smart enough to know the wife might not let you go bowling ;-)

Val

Cool. I'm learning on this forum now, and smiling a lot more, too. Thanks, folks, for 'opening up'. I do appreciate your honesty, and don't 'cut me any slack'.

(white space)
And apparently I've been a 'scientific-type' way to long for even my own good, 'cause my wife doesn't let me go bowling anymore (but maybe being over 65 has something to do with that?) Come to think of it - my chiropractor could finally afford to buy a new boat last month...
WS (I'm learning...)

Another thing I'm trying to learn is how to 'translate' scientific evidence into layman's terms. Am writing a book, and doing post graduate-level projects on compost - but what good is that if it's too boring to be an 'interesting read'?

The science of composting is relevant, yes, but I know that it's the practical matters that are more important to the 'doing' of it - true in my case as well.

A 'quick' (for me) run-down on the chlorine issue:

Microbe populations verified in fresh compost 'tea' with microscope, then added drop-by-drop into several different concentrations of chlorinated water (vs rainwater as the control). Watched the critters die.

I use a compost thermometer (always). Made 'identical' piles and recorded temperatures with one pile watered with only 'city' water (that I had to haul-in with barrels) and the other with rainwater. Three times. Microscopic population analysis of the fresh 'tea' from each pile after each turn/watering. Very interesting results.

Chlorine kills microbes (like it's supposed to) and does affect pile heat. Not saying there's not still sufficient thermoplyllic fungi to create heat - just saying that the chlorinated piles would have heated more (and more completely - like the rainwater piles) if chlorine had not been introduced, and of course the chlorine killed meso-fungi too.

Chlorinated piles took more almost twice as long to reach 'finished' stage (based on equal % of humus content) as rainwater, and less than half again as much with piles where the chlorine was allowed to 'dissipate' in the barrels for 5 days before using the water.

So what do you do with that info? Nothing if you don't want to. I'm not trying to get you to change the way you compost - just providing science-based information that may be relevant - or not.

I like to experiment. Seems a waste not to share the results...Doesn't make any difference to me whether you use the info - or not. I don't do this for 'applause' - it's just something I enjoy doing. I like trying to make the very best/fastest compost I can with the materials I have. That's my 'thing'. Most folks don't care. And that's OK too.

Robert

Much easier to read, thanks.

Did notice this in several of your posts, "thermoplyllic fungi", I have never seen fungi referred to like that, it's usually bacteria that is described as thermophilic. Any links I could study?

I suspect that chlorine levels in water is variable and I would hazard a guess that the ppm's are extremely low.

Doesn't chlorine break down relatively quickly? Given the rate of reproduction of the bacteria, unless you are continually spraying with fresh chlorinated water wouldn't the bacteria eventually win?

Suffice to say in the long run, for composting, is it all that big of an issue? The folks I know in town that compost don't seem to be having any difficulties.

I'm not so much into the science, but I am sure lots of people are, I just like to compost stuff.

Thx
Lloyd

Be warned there are lots of words in italics.

Here is a link that might be useful: thermoplillic fungi

YOIKS!

Just reading the introduction I realize this is WAY beyond my intelligence level.

Is there like a Readers Digest version similar to Cornell?

Lloyd

Soilguy - Thank you for the white space! Much easier to read and follow. Also, your terminology was easier for me at least to understand and I did learn something.

You are also dead on about the book. If you are writing your book for the layman and want to reach a lot of people then "dumbing" it down slightly would be a good thing. You'll want to reach as many people as possible. Make sure to let us know when you have it done :-)

Val

Hoooeee, cowgirl2 - You popped 'em with a research paper that even I had trouble getting through the first couple of reads. It's a darned good one, though. MAJOR lack of 'white space' - that's the way scientists write...
How did you do that hyperlink entry?

Lloyd - yes, there are basically three 'types' of organisms that create finished compost, classified by the temperatures in which they proliferate:
Thermo-between 104 and 200°F. Ideal range is 122° - 131°F.
Meso-between 40° and 110°F, but thrive between 70° to 90°F.
MOST of the decomposition that takes place in a compost pile is mesophilic.
Psychro-temperature range (below 65°F). Are most active around 55°F.
And yes, there are fungal AND bacterial in each type.

Recommend you view: http://www.compostinfo.com/
For starters...many more detailed ones if you want 'em.
3 accepted ways to spell: phyllic/phillic/philic
Depends on the author's preference.

Yup, I was familiar with the temperature classifications of the micro organisms but the Florida link you supplied clearly says "bacteria" not "fungus" using those descriptors. The Cornell site also talks about the bacteria being responsible for most of the decomposition and heat generation with most of the fungi being on the outer layer when temperatures are high. Other sites I have perused also alluded to the fungi being not so much in the heat of things but more so on the periphery and certainly after the high heating is done.

The statement "Heat in a pile is PRIMARILY caused by one large group (many different strains) of fungus." didn't match up with anything I had read, hence my confusion. Or is fungus and bacteria being used interchangeably? They aren't really the same thing are they?

I knew skipping those biology classes was going to come back to haunt me.

Lloyd

Here's how to do a hyperlink. You put the url in an href tag, followed by a description of the link, follolwed by a closing tag.

Here's how it would look for your link above. I'm html escaping the special characters to show the < and >:

<a href="http://www.compostinfo.com/">Compost Info</a>

And here's how that translates on the page:
Compost Info

For the geeks, I'll double escape to show how to display html special characters. To show the < use &lt; and to show > use &gt;.

I went back to an introductory text on microbiology. In a chapter on soil, I found this table which may be extrapolated to compost.

I had to use periods for spacing since this forum is not kind to white space.

Microorganisms per Gram of Typical garden Soil at Various Depths

DEPTH(CM)....BACTERIA..ACTINOMYCETES....FUNGI....ALGEA
.......3-4................9,750,000.............2,080,000..............119,000......25,000
.....20-25..............2,179,000................245,000................50,000........5,000
.....35-40.................570,000..................49,000................14,000...........500
.....65-75...................11,000....................5,000..................6,000...........100
...135-145...................1,400....................------..................3,000............---

The table would seem to give bacteria the lead but the text states --- "It is estimated that the biomass of fungi probably equals the biomass of all bacteria including actinomycetes. This large biomass occurs because fungal mycelia are much larger than bacterial cells".

Again this is in soil, not in compost but there is apt to be a good correlation. That correlation might even be closer if you use soil and old compost as an ingredient in a new pile.

Interesting, I'm not sure exactly what it all means but interesting.

Any clue as to which organism the heat in compost can be attributed to? Does it need both/all?

Maybe the question I should be asking is, should I even really be caring about this?

It heats up, live with it!

In any event, I do appreciate you looking all this up CG2.

Lloyd

Lloyd,

I would think that it's the process and not specifically the type microorganism that is active. This question of heat in compost took me some time to figure out. It seems simple but very mind numbing in its actual complexity.

Do a search on Krebs Cycle or Electron Transport Cycle for the detailed story. Here's the Reader's Digest version cribbed from on-line sources.

The general equation for the complete breakdown (catabolism) of glucose:

(CH2O)n + O2 ---> CO2 + H2O + energy (ATP = chemical energy, heat)

ATP is adenosine triphosphate and it is the chemical energy of cells.

Glucose catabolism yields a TOTAL of approx. 38 ATP or 262 kcal (38 ATP x 7.3 kcal/mol ATP). Glucose has 686 kcal/mol. Thus, the efficiency of glucose metabolism is 262/686 x 100 = 38%. Or in other words, about 62% of the energy is lost as heat. This keeps us, shrews, and elephants warm. It also explains why compost piles generate lots of heat.

Man, I wish you were sitting beside me when I went through high school, the dope I copied off of wasn't nearly as smart!

Thanks

Lloyd

Cowgirl2, may I ask what line of work you are in? I'm blown away even by your dumbed down version.

I am just a gardener who likes to understand.

Hey Brandon--

It's the middle of December and you live in Zone 6. Your pile is as big as mine is--HUGE, and much larger than the compost geeks recommend. You put the manure -- already well aged--on TOP of the pile.

You should not expect that pile to heat up until March.

Bury your kitchen waste in the middle of the pile from t this point forward. I do not aerate much in the winter, as I find it allows heat to escape. Just wait.

Brandon,
Speaking as a 'compost geek' regarding huge piles - there's a commercial composter about 60 miles from me who owns a cattle feed lot. His piles are at least 30 cubic yards each - takes 3-4 dump trucks to move it, which is how he turns the piles. Piles cannot be too large if you use tractor hydraulics, but in my not-so-humble (IMNSHO?) opinion - larger sacrifices quality because control is more difficult.
Dusty doesn't care about compost quality because his compost just gets spread on pastures (he knows better than to spread raw stuff), and he has it 'coming out of his ears' (so to speak)...
For 'home' composters, materials being about 'equal', timing of turns (due to buildup of CO2) is relative to depth of pile, but not to width/length.

Doesn't hard freeze often (or for very long) where I live, but 34F now - don't spend as much time outside at a time - but do turn my piles in this temperature (and lower), since they stop decomposing if they don't get turned 'on time'. So I suffer because of my wholesale schedule. Consider yourself blessed if you can wait until spring to turn a pile.

When I composted in S. Dakota I learned (from the Standing Rock Sioux) how to build a simple 4-sided (hip) "teepee" with two 2x4 lumber and plywood sheet. To set over a pile, to keep heavy ice/snow off of the pile - and used the technique when I lived in Ohio - but don't need to do that in Texas.
The contraption looks like the 2-pole (drag) carrier that Indians used to haul stuff behind their horse. As I remember, those were put together teepee-style to protect 'outside' stuff from bad weather. For a square or rectangular pile, every other top-to-bottom piece needed to be inverted. Lashed together with rope.
In zone 6 or greater, you can probably get away with just using a tarp.
I spent a year with the Sioux on the reservation near Mobridge - and if material was ANY kind of organic refuse - it got composted.

My piles still heat as hot as I want 'em to get in winter - for as long as I want them to stay hot - since ambient temperature is not a major factor - very limited 'air flow' in a 'tight/moist' pile - but a deep layer of ice/snow is way too much trouble to 'fight through'.

True, original pile material does cool down when turned/screened in cold temperatures, but when remade as a 1st turn, given adequate energy/food for prolific reproduction of thermophyllia (to produce a 2nd heat), the time difference to heat again is only a day or two - and gets just as hot as in summer. Microbes don't care what the outside temperature is - they make their own heat.

All depends on how the piles are constructed. Mine are self-insulating, and capped/covered in cold weather. No air flow needed at all for effective decomposition. It's humans that don't like handling tools cold weather - me included.

After the 1st turn (2nd heat), no additional reheat is needed for a finish-to-harvest a pile. Mesophilic microbes decompose material fastest at F-temps of under 104 degrees.

Last turn (before harvest) phycho-microbes operate best at F-temp range of 55 - 75. It's all a matter of knowing what the microbe cycles are supposed to be - and working with them - not 'against' them, 'cause they are the ones doing the actual decomposition work - not humans.

Robert