I know one of the people working in the background to right the ship. It is a huge amount of work to try to correct the mistakes made over the last three or four years. He has asked for any ideas we in the local club might have to get more members and increase the depth of things covered in the magazine.

What is happening with the ARS is very much the same problem that most clubs are having. As the number of members drops the costs of the club condense to a smaller number of people covering the same overhead. The local Ducati Motorcycle club costs $30.00 a year and there is no magazine.

Lance

I can't help but wonder if it is too little too late. I was a member of the ARS and during the time that I was I felt like I received nothing to justify the expense. The magazine was unremarkable and heavily slanted toward those who exhibited roses. They (the ARS) were not involved in any way with dispersing information about RRD or actively trying to stop its spread by those who used it to try to control multiflora and this is a huge and widespread issue. It is my understanding that those who did try to step up and enact changes within the ARS met nothing but resistance from the powers that be. It is possible that things are changing and I hope that they are but I don't think I would invest another 50 dollars to find out. There are probably many, many people like me. I know of quite a few of them, personally. I have asked myself a number of times, if the ARS ceased to exist, would it be a huge loss and if so why. I don't have the answer. This is not a bashing of the ARS or exhibitors. It's like any organization, the people who will join will do so because it offers something of value to them, whatever that might be. This is just my experience and some questions that I have asked myself and seen others ask without seeing any good responses. I joined the ARS, I wanted to like the organization and support it but it didn't meet my particular needs.

Carol

Patience is a virtue, and not everyone has enough for the long haul. Americans in general, and some rosarians in particular, are a fickle lot. They change with the times and, generally, with the direction of the wind. I have been a member of ARS for 30 years, and have hung in there through thick and thin. Over the course of those years, I served on a few committees, and learned how things work on the "inside." I will agree that some of the Presidents were extremely heavy handed, and that in far too many cases the Board of Directors tended to do pretty much as they damned well pleased, completely ignoring input from the rank and file. However, good things come to those who wait, and Steve Jones, our present President, is doing a great job. I applaud the changes to the magazine, and have no problem with the increase in dues. Afterall, you tend to get what you pay for, and there is no free lunch anymore, if there really ever was one. As a long-time member of ARS, I never really felt that they favored the exhibitor over the basic grower, and really don't know how that rumor got started, but it did, and many picked up on it, put it out on the net, and well, y'all know the rest. When it is time for me to re-up again in two years, I certainly will, and have no qualms about it. As a cyber CR, I have met so many wonderful, knowledgeable people, it would be stupid of me to throw all of that away over something petty and juvenile.

"Afterall, you tend to get what you pay for" - this slogan sounds very good and this statement might have been true sometimes in the past, but is definitely false today. I do not even aim at the ARS, when I say this, I offer it as a general observation.
Just because I pay more and more, let's say, for cable TV or health insurance it does not mean that a get a better service. In fact, I get worse and worse every year. When there are no alternatives to choose from, the institution, organization or business enjoying monopoly can charge whatever they want without the urge to making it better.

Roseman, I have met Steve Jones and I agree that he is a good man, loves and grows all types of roses, and is a good person to be at the helm of the ARS. My question is whether one man can go toe to toe with the people who are entrenched at the top and like things just the way they are, despite the fact that the membership has been in decline for some years now. I also think that people like yourself, who have been members for many years, and label someones thoughts, questions or concerns as petty and juvenille because they don't agree with your own is also contributing to the decrease in the number of members. The ARS has real problems despite the effort by some to minimize, excuse or ignore them. I wish Steve Jones and the ARS the best and hope that they will be able to turn the organization around and make it more meaninful for ALL rose growers.

Have a nice day,
Carol

Ms Meyers,

I'm slack-jawed reading your comments on the ARS, as they so closely mirror sentiments I've expressed.

Let's just hope no one labels YOUR POSTS "argumentative, confrontational and inflammatory.

Have a nice day,
Bill

I'd rather spend the $50 on more roses.

Personally, I didn't form my opinions from any rumors. I have been a member for 4, maybe 5, years now. My perceptions have been formed strictly from how the ARS has presented itself to me, pure and simple. Therefore, it is somewhat of an objective perception, because I had no knowledge of any inner workings or politics, nor have I ever had a discussion of this nature with anyone else. The local society in my area hadn't given me an impression of being different from that, so I never joined on the local level. I sensed a great deal of politics (which may be an incorrect feeling), and I could tell that I was viewed as "different" because I had fallen out of love with hybrid teas by then, and had never had an interest in exhibiting.

I truly like the less competitive, more easy going nature that seems inherent in most of those that like to grow heritage roses. As I grow older, I find I have almost no tolerance for nit-picking politics, or rude people. I find it hard to fathom that someone would be so rude in a competition as to gripe about the prize. Many people have lost their values, or just plain never had any. I'd rather stay home!

I do plan on renewing this year, because I think there are some changes in the air, at least on the national level, and if the magazines continue to be good, the dues is worth it.

Sandy

Mr. Cartwright, I have never said that I don't agree with you about the ARS or any other subject for that matter. I have said that your posts are inflammatory, argumentative and confrontational. This one is a good example. I don't think anyone could interpret it as anything other than mocking, unnecessary and unkind.

Uhhhh . . . Carolfm --

I THINK he was agreeing with you.
It is so easy to mis-interpret things, when there is no expression or inflection.

Jeri

Poor Bill, some people really misunderstand him! He WAS agreeing with Carolfm.

Sandy

Carol, who are "the people who are entrenched at the top"? Steve is the President, which makes him the unchallenged leader of the ARS. I served on the Board for six years, and the Executive Committee of the Board for five years between 2001 and 2006. I can tell you the Board ran the organization and I have no idea who "the people who are entrenched at the top" might be. Would you please explain for us who you mean? I am truly at a loss to understand this comment.

Whew! I started this thread because I'm trying to acknowledge the fact that the ARS is making a huge effort to try and please all of us (no easy task). I sincerely believe the organization is made up of good people. They've had problems - I've been one of those that has complained about them. However, I think it's fair to let go of some of our frustration and give them a fighting chance.

Sandy

A few thoughts:
1. I think Bill was referencing comments made on his observations of the ARS on another listserve and intended no insult or criticism of the comments of anyone on this thread.
2. I have belonged to the ARS for a dozen years and I find the society in a state of flux; there has been a rapprochement between the Heritage Rose Foundation and the ARS--to the point of sharing convention quarters in Dallas; every other issue of the 'American Rose' now includes articles dedicated to the organic approach to growing and maintaing roses; and there are new and different attempts to communicate with members about issues of importance beyond dues and membership--although there is no denying the importance of those issues for survival.
3. Some of the problems plaguing the ARS are beyond solution because they are societal in nature: declining membership is a fact of life for volunteer organizations as gardens grow smaller, two career couples have less disposable time, information about roses is easily available on the Internet, and the tastes of the public and the tastes of the rose afficianado grow further apart.
4. The exhibiting vs. non-exhibiting schism is overblown.
at least 1/3 of the rose societies in the country do not offer traditional competitive rose shows. There are 350 plus rose societies and fewer than 250 rose shows each year. However, the tradition and the weight of history favor recognizing exhibition and exhibitors. In a sense, the question is what kind of public outreach programs justify the extension of educational tax exemptions to rose societies? Even back in the 1950's many rose shows were not competitive and that is one possible line of development; another possible line is a celebration of the rose. The ARS is attempting to become a big tent in which a variety of methods of celebrating the rose may florish.
Any kind of rebirth involves pain for those lamenting the changes and pain for those lamenting the slow pace of growth, but a little tolerance for the views of opponents could help a lot.
5. A final comment on the whole membership question. If the response to an invitation to join the ARS or a local rose society, is 'I don't want to.' no further discussion is possible or needed. And all reasons are really undergirded by the basic 'I dont wanna.' There are a lot of virtues to the ARS, to the lcoal rose society, to the whole world of rosarians, but if the assets or pluses do not ignite excitement or pleasure, then it is not to be.
I am not persuaded that you can bully, trick, coax, cajole, or whinge people into belonging to rose groups; sometimes there are peripheral issues but the bottom line is that the association does not warrant the costs, psychic or otherwise.

JMO.

JimD

Sandy, first let me say I always enjoy reading your posts.

This thread does have me thinking. I'm happy to read that in your estimation the ARS does appear to be listening to calls for reform.

I've been in a quandry reguarding ARS membership. I've been asking myself, "does one join an organization one has serious issues with...hoping to change that organization?" Or is that just fool-hearty? Still quite an open question in my mind.

At the end of the day I'd like to see an organization with the past importance (and future potential) of the ARS find a positive role for itself in the 21st Century. And I hope the good work started by the current leadership continues.

Bill

EDIT: Unfortunately, before posting this (and thinking maybe I SHOULD go ahead and join) I went to the ARS membership page.

Only to discover that in addition to the rose guides I already knew of published by a pesticide manufacturer (Ortho) that are given away for upgrading to 2 and 3 year memberships...which unsurprisingly advocate pesticide use...the ARS has now also formed a strategic partnership with Bayer Advanced and is sending members who renew their memberships samples of Bayer's "All-In-One" product that combines insecticides, fungisides and synthetic fertilizers in one convenient package.

Oh my. Oh my. When will they ever learn?

I guess until this sort of thing stops, my wallet will remain closed.

Bill, I understand where you are coming from. Perhaps you should contact them with a letter explaining why you don't want to join. Otherwise, they'll never know why.

Sandy

I've been a member for ten years. I feel like the organization has been making an effort to speak to more than just the exhibitors. The magazine has improved also. I've always renewed just on principal to support the ARS. I must say though that while I understand the need to raise the membership rate, that I guess $50 is above my commitment. It's just simply not worth it to me.

Mendocino Rose's dilemma is mine.

DH and I've been members of ARS for 20 years.
We're active CRs. We exhibit when there is a rose show near us (tho there are fewer and fewer).
We've enjoyed ARS, and I believe we've contributed to it.
We USED to attend conventions (national and District) but their cost has risen above our limits.
(That's OK. We do still go to HRG and HRF seminars and events.)

We DO wish to continue to be part of ARS, but a $50. membership fee gives us pause.
We've made no decisions yet, and we don't have to for a while.
But for the first time in 20 years, I am wavering on renewal.

Jeri

I've never been very interested in hybrid teas though I do grow a few (very few) from time to time. And I've been a member for 48 years now and will undoubtedly renew next year if I'm still around to do it. Over the course of my long membership, year in and out I've always gotten something worthwhile out of both the organization and the magazine. Back when, Roy Shepherd was the head of the OGR committee and there was a lot of interesting stuff being published. And then Lee Bell was contributing articles. And....
Of course, there have been magazine issues which were read swiftly and disposed of even more swiftly - have to say that is true of almost every magazine I've ever subscribed to. It would have to be a magazine written entirely by me to catch my interest 100% of the time!
As far as free sample insecticides/fungicides, etc - you are always free to use them or dispose of them (in an approved hazardous waste disposal site). Bayer's all purpose is banned in NY and I'm wondering if the ARS realizes that they are contravening state law? Will ask. Have to admit I didn't even notice the offer since I'm not personally interested in using such things. In fact,I can't recall ever buying a product on the ARS recommendation but realize that if they didn't get funding from chemical companies - well, maybe you can agree that there is no free lunch?

I can't recall ever buying a product on the ARS recommendation but realize that if they didn't get funding from chemical companies - well, maybe you can agree that there is no free lunch?

*** Good point, well taken.
And maybe we should all remember that, and remember that most advertising should be taken with a grain of salt.

Jeri

I totally agree that there is no "free lunch." And that's exacty why I object to the ARS taking money from pesticide manufacturers. There is an obvious conflict of interest when a tax-excempt "educational" organization acts as a marketing arm of the pesticide industry.

In my opinion, the ARS ought to be promoting good cultural practices which lead to minimizing pesticide usage. Instead, my perception is, they do exacty the opposite. And I have little doubt money from pesticide companies is a big factor in their policies.

Bill

Interestingly, I've gotten a lot of info on organic methods of gardening from the ARS - many years back when I read an article on using newspapers as mulch and I figured that one article paid my membership that year - I've been composting newspaper ever since. And there have been articles on neem oil, the Cornell formula using baking soda and horticultural oil for mildew and other organic methods, alfalfa tea -the list goes on and on.
In Southern California I understand that organic rose growing is a lot easier than it is here in the humid northeast (it was 95 degrees and 94% humidity yesterday - hard for people to breath, let along roses! Rainfall in the last 365 days was 70+ inches). The ARS has had articles on integrated pest management - unfortunately Japanese beetles haven't yet learned to read the articles.
You know Bill, it seems to me as if you may be ignoring anything the ARS has to say in favor of organic methods and focusing on those writers (and members) who go the chemical route. You did say that is your perception.

The ARS fall convention is coming up in St. Louis the middle of September. There will be a two hour session for Consulting Rosarians during the convention - not a school but Continuing Education for existing CRs. The first hour will be a presentation on Integrated Pest Management by Baldo Villegas. The national chair of CRs emphasizing IPM. I hope everyone notices that.

>> In Southern California I understand that organic rose growing is a lot easier than it is here in the humid northeast

*** I don't know that that is true.
The biggest element, for us, is selection of roses.
We avoid chemicals by selecting roses that can exist without them.
Seems to me, Sandy is doing the same thing in hot, humid Florida.
I would probably do the same thing if I were forced to live in a different environment.
(That, of course, leaves Japanese Beetles out of the equation, because we don't have them.)

But, note: I think ARS has great value, and I do not want to see it fail -- HOWEVER . . .
we did NOT learn these lessons from ARS.
We had to discard what ARS taught us, and learn differently by trial and error.
I think ARS IS trying to offer other approaches -- now.
But people can hardly be blamed for failing to recognize that change at first.

Jeri

Oldroser, I'm certainly not trying to ignore any developments within the ARS towards more earth-friendly methods. I welcome such moves. And truthfully I've been looking for reasons to join the ARS, not for reasons NOT to join.

I have visited the ARS affiliated Good Earth Rose CARE website many times and have been encouraged in knowing Steve Jones, the current ARS president, wants to promote responsible growing practices. Since I don't get the magazine (being a non-member) I can only rely on like-minded people such as Sandy to inform me of developments such as the every-other-issue inclusion of "organic gardening" tips. Again a positive development IMO.

To the best extent possible, as an outsider to the organization, I have tried to get a fair assesment of where the ARS is when it comes to growing practices and pesticide use. I'm certainly not trying to be unfair or one-sided.

The truth is I'd like to become an ARS member, and in fact I very nearly joined last night. However, when I discovered their "free-sample" give away of Bayer All In One pesticide. To me this is the most irresponsible type of product on the market...as every time you fertilize you also are applying pesticides whether conditions warrant it, or not. When I saw this "promotion" the good-will that was building up in me evaporated.

I simply will not become a member of an organization that sends out pesticde samples to its members. Especially ones I believe are as irresponsible as Bayer 3 in 1.
I respect others may have different feelings, but I have to live with my own values and principles, and at this time they still do not allign with those of the ARS.

Bill

ARS isn't anything I think about much, one way or another. It just isn't on my radar screen most of the time. So I have no particular take on the organization as a whole. I'm just not a joiner (of anything)in most circumstances.

However, I have to agree with Bill. When I happened upon the ARS page not too long ago, I was shocked to see them promoting Bayer All-in-One. They may not have intended it, but to me, it looked like they were giving their seal-of-approval to this product, actually recommending we use it.

Admittedly, I didn't spend much time perusing the web page, so I may have misunderstood why that Bayer image was there, but the impression created was advocacy. My first thought was, no wonder so many newbies show up here proud that they use that product. After all, it was "recommended" by the ARS.

Kate

Steve Jones has my sympathy. Anyone who has ever led an organization knows what he is going through. Trying to make a "one-size-fits-all" organization is tough. Look at us, we can't even have rose forums without squabbles and occasional revolutions.

Problems occur because each member only focuses on what they want, often failing to consider the needs of the entire membership. The subject matter expands and becomes more complex, costs increase, technology needs arise. Complaints outnumber constructive suggestions.

Its easy to point fingers at Mr. Jones and "those people at the top". Its just not easy to be one of them.

This is a hard topic to discuss dispassionately. I just took another look at the ARS homepage and it really is a beautiful site with good functionality. In discussing the magazine they HAVE made efforts to diversify. For example, the cover over the past three years has shown several different types of roses (not just Hybrid Teas) and the articles (at least the non-exhibiting articles) are indeed helpful. But the organization still leaves me with mixed feelings. I can't put my finger on why but that is how I feel. In all honesty they are better, much better than they used to be but more work still needs to be done:

1. Lack of an interactive forum (this has been already discussed)

2. Would like to see garden designs included in the magazine.

3. Change the show rules. There I said it. As long as the most coveted prize is "THE QUEEN" then the shows will be forever schewed towards Hybrid Teas.

As far as the BAYER Soil Drench goes it is the EASIEST way for novices to effectively grow the kind of roses they see at the Florist and on show tables. Lets face it, the vast majority of roses are horribly disease prone. In fact I can think of only a handful of cultivars (Canary Bird, Darlows Enigma, Knockout, etc.) that can be grown in zone 6 without spraying. Of course, whether or not to use the drench is up to the individual. Personally I don't because of the pesticide issue, but I recognize its value to the novice gardener.

In the end I think Jeri is right. The ARS is laboring under a bad reputation. Only time and continued hard work is going to change that.

Actually, a foliar spray is "safer" for the environment than those darn soil drenches. When you put something into the ground, especially if there is a period of a lot of rainfall, the stuff goes right into the ground water. I think NY state has it right on this one.

There are huge problems right now in the Everglades with wildlife due to all the fertilizers and pesitcides that have leached into the waters and swamps there, to the extent of considerable birth defects. I don't feel the soil products should be promoted by anyone, let alone the ARS. You're right, a beginner would think these products are the most desirable way to control problems.

Just my two cents.

Sandy

I was interested to hear that N.Y. has banned those products.
I'm surprised (and disappointed) that California's not on the forefront in this.

Jeri

P.S.: Poor ARS.
I suppose there are no non-chemical-company pockets deep enough to allow them to spurn such sponsorships.
Even if they wanted to.

I believe that once residential pesticide use is banned in the U.S. as it is in other countries, those subsidies and free or complimentary gifts will go the way of the dodo. And there is no requirement that you take or use the 'gifts' associated with membership bonuses. Frankly, I am more worried that the ARS will have to become an exclusionary organization by virtue of declining membership and emulate an unnamed local rose society which charges for pruning demonstrations or a national that deliberately sets event prices high enough to exclude the hoi polloi (as part of the polloi I have a vested interest). But if that happens, it will simply provide a whole new set of reasons not to associate with it.

If the ARS is unsatisfactory, perhaps HRG, or HRF, the RNS or some other rose organization can provide a suitable outlet for expressions of affection for the rose, if not some of the rosarians.

JimD

Not to beat a dead horse, but----I hope the horse survives.

I doubt that the ARS has any pull in changing how shows are run and set up. There are few enough people as there is, to do set up, take down, buy the hardware and make everything as much as possible a class act. The dwindling few are mostly rabid Hardware Hunters, - I mean that kindly - and friends. Shows are a good place to meet people and learn stuff that you may or may not want to.

We took in the Columbus Rose show. Thousands of folks came to see the gardens, eat food, buy stuff from the vendors, but very few opened the doors to come into the rose show building itself. It was kind of a shame as there were some very nice roses brought.

I agree with Patrick:

"3. Change the show rules. There I said it. As long as the most coveted prize is "THE QUEEN" then the shows will be forever schewed towards Hybrid Teas."

I think it is harder to show a rose with fragrance than a "Florist" rose that may have to be sprayed with fragrance to be sold. A couple of years ago I had cut a perfect 'Salet' a moss rose about 5:30 AM and around 9:30 it was looking kind of limp. I hurried home, snagged another, did the big swicheroo before the doors closed and walked with a $40 trophy. Kind of hard to do if you don't live a hoot and a holler away from the show room.

With HTs one can start cutting two weeks or more away and keep them in a non self defrosting type refrigerator and prep them at your lesiure, kind of.

I have heard stories of folks showing the same rose in three different shows and doing well in them all.

There is a grace and wonder about catching a rose at it's utmost perfection, showing it is another art form.

'French Lace' does have a nice scent, one of the best, even though the Troll and many others think otherwise.

> Not to beat a dead horse, but----I hope the horse survives.

*** I hope the horse lives too.
The wagon the horse is pulling does good things overall (and some debatable, but hey ...).
Its loss would impact other, smaller groups with local value.

And if you don't like that horse's paces, check out a horse of a different color.

Heritage Roses Group: http://www.heritagerosegroup.org/home.htm

Heritage Rose Foundation: http://www.heritagerosefoundation.org/

Or at the very least a local rose organization . . .

Jeri Jennings heritageroses @ gmail dot com

Gold Coast Heritage Roses Group: http://www.goldcoastrose.org

I owe the ARS and GW posters an apology.

In a previous post on this thread, I mentioned that "I was shocked to see [the ARS website] promoting Bayer All-in-One."

I was wrong.

I just did a quick search and cannot find such a promotion anywhere on the ARS website, nor could I find any reference to any Bayer products.

Whatever site on which I saw that Bayer image that shocked me, it evidently was not the ARS web site.

I guess this just proves that we should not always rely on our memories. Obviously I remembered incorrectly.

My apologies.

Kate

I have to think some of you are barking up the wrong tree. If the ARS is about HTs and showing, you have a snowball's chance in heck getting them to give up chemicals.

You'd be better off starting a organic rose club or joining a club that is better suited to your views.

Kate, don't apologize too quickly, your memory may be better than you think ;-)

Bill

Here is a link that might be useful: A Link for Kate

Thank you, Bill. I'm absent-minded enough some days without having to worry that I'm totally losing it. LOL

Kate

Trust me Kate, I know the feeling. Glad I could help :)

Bill

Jeri,

Funny thing that you mention the HERITAGE ROSE FOUNDATION. I mailed my membership dues on Monday. Looking forward to reading Rosamundi. Although I wonder how much benefit I will get as my passion is the English Roses. Then again, I am in love with a couple of OGRs (Souvenir de la Malmaison and Reine des Violettes) so we shall see...

Patrick

Oh Patrick, HRF is fairly catholic in its Old/Older Rose coverage, so you will doubtless learn a bit about a lot of things you hadn't heard much about before.
No knowledge is wasted.
And who knows? You may find that your soul can expand to encompass other passions. :-)

Jeri

Patrick has a soul?

I just looked at the Aug/Sept ARS magazine. I really liked what they did. They also had some information in there about the use of aspirin in conjunction with other ingredients to help boost the immune systems in roses to help fend off disease. Will anyone else out there try this method to see how well it will work? It appears to work the way the Messenger product does. Anything that helps is appreciated. I just wonder if boosting the immune system might also help fight off the rose rosette disease. I don't know if that question has been asked.

I really like seeing member gardens featured. I just wonder if there is another possibility here. I would like to see some inclusion of garden design how-to's as part of the articles. I wonder if ARS could partner up with an outfit like Garden Design magazine or other like publication to jointly sponsor garden makeovers that could be co-featured in both magazines and have some kind of contest showing the gardens in the most desperate need of a makeover as candidates. It could be done like some of these TV shows where the house gets redone or a car gets redone. I could, of course, nominate my hopeless weedpatch for a makeover. I just wonder if anyone else would agree with me about doing something like this.

From the New Phytologist (1994): 617-633 the Tansley Review No. 72 by Bennett and Wallsgrove is "Secondary metabolite in plant defence mechanisms"
Salicylic acid and methyl jasmonate are on pages 627.

From the summary page 629 "Many plant secondary metabolites play a role in plant defence (in its widest sense). We only partly understand their role(s), and in only a limited range of plants. Considerably more work is required, in all aspects of secondary metabolite biology-physiology, biochemistry, ecology-if we are to appreciate fully their significane in plants and fucntion in ecological systems in general."

There are lot more recent papers, but most are very specialized looking at single species. Rose Oil is getting some looks and Rosa rugosa seems to be getting a lot of attention.

Here is a link that might be useful: a search for 2nd metabolites, rosa, rosaceae