All Moss roses are OGRs because the Class is pre-1867, the dividing line. It is the date of the class, not the individual variety, that determines OGR status. Thus, technically, polyanthas and hybrid musks are not OGRs even tho we tend to think of them (and plant them) as if they were.

The original poster is in the Phillipines, so the roses seen are not the Moss roses we know.

Our OGR moss roses are pretty much guaranteed to be once bloomer with that bloom coming in the spring (which also doesn't fit blooming now in the Northern Hemisphere.)

From what I've seen our OGR moss roses do much better in Zone 5 and colder. The gardens in Ohio that have a moss collection have moss blooms with ten to fifteen blooms on each cane; I've grown a couple of moss roses in zone6/7 and never had that mass of buds and my blooms come all at once. I haven't seen the gradations of bloom that I've seen on the same roses to our north.

So the OP has gotten me really interested in what kinds of blooms are over there and doing so well in tropical conditions.

As Ann says -- real mosses don't do well in places where there is no winter. Without a winter rest, many have disease problems, and they don't bloom much, either.

Jeri

Actually I'm pretty convinced that the "moss" rose I saw might be a sport. I saw similar roses sold in other stalls and they didn't have those fuzzy sepals. I almost mistook them for Gardenias too until I looked at the buds.

The roses commonly sold at our nursery are usually HTs and minis but I've seen China and Tea-like ones too.

Also, OGRs and OGR-like roses are rare to come by, so that's the reason I started doubting this "moss".

This post was edited by Resolute_Noir on Wed, Nov 20, 13 at 18:05

I went ahead and bought the rose. Here's a picture of it showing the fuzzy stems and sepals.

And here's a picture of the flower.

And now the whole plant.

RN,

In your climate I can say with great certainty that is not a Moss.

The Moss classification is a bit of an ambiguity in that the main requirement be that the buds show the "mossing" mutation. It is known to occur in Damasks as well as Centifolias separately, and does not depend as much on genetic 'bloodlines' as much as it does phenotypic expression of a gene. Therefore it is better to think of Moss as a sub-category for roses, while the main classification such as Damask, Centifolia, etc. predominates and has a greater determining factor in the rose's behavior.

Also, the mossing I see there is minimal compared to what a Moss rose would exhibit. Take a look at the Moss rose 'William Lobb'. You will see much more prolific mutation on its buds.

My guess would be that your rose is a modern variety, especially given the mysterious "Valentine Rose"'classification. Nonetheless, it appears to be a healthy, beautiful plant and would be a great addition to any garden.

I am curious, what do you mean by OGR varieties are rare where you live?

Josh

More fuzzy sepals. (Excuse my blurry hand)

What I meant about OGR varieties being rare here is that they are pretty much non-existent (or I am not aware) in our local nursery. Also, people here are generally unaware of the classes of roses except maybe for Miniatures so they are unable to tell if a certain rose is an Old rose or not, making searching for OGRs even more difficult.

Thanks for the explanation too Josh. I agree that it is not a moss. Though fuzzy as it is, those fuzzy growths do not produce a smell when rubbed unlike Moss roses. Even if it isn't a Moss, I still love how its fuzzy sepals make it stand out from my other roses.

Another thing. I've just found out about the Chestnut Rose and those fuzzy things on my rose resemble the Chestnut Rose more than it does a Moss Rose.

Could it be a very distant relative?

This post was edited by Resolute_Noir on Thu, Nov 21, 13 at 10:12

I think your rose definitely has mossy tendencies, though obviously not a "true" moss.

Below is a link to an earlier discussion on this forum about the feasibility of growing moss roses in Florida.

Paul Barden recommended the miniature Ralph Moore hybrid, "Lady Moss" (it does look tempting). Other people suggested that even these hybrids might have to be sprayed for disease.

I think some might also be very thorny. Heidi is one I have been drawn to, prickles notwithstanding, as displayed for sale at the Union Square Farmers' Market. But I have never tried to grow it.

The so-called "Common" moss, is exquisite beyond belief but has a rather short bloom period -- at least I thought it did some years ago at the Brooklyn Botanic Garden, where it was often subjected to blasting heat waves in June. I think in recent years the springs may have been cooler. But the moss rose is now gone.

Here is a link that might be useful: Moss roses in Fla.?

Wow. Those miniature mosses look cute. Specially Lady Moss. Those blooms are luscious!

Common Moss' blooms look elegant! Its mosses are astounding. The mini mosses have those mosses that look closer to my rose.

One question though, what differentiates a Moss from a Modern Moss?

I was just thinking "what about the Ralph Moore mossed minis?" as possibilities for a "moss rose" getting to the Philippines when I opened this thread, but I see someone beat me to it.

What's the difference between a Modern and OGR Moss? Well, the first Moss roses were sports on Centifolias, then on an Autumn Damask. Soon after, the moss-trait was bred into Portlands and some Hybrid Perpetuals, resulting in the repeat-blooming Moss OGRs. Mossing is just a trait (hardly enough of a characteristic for an entire class), and among the Moss OGRs, there are differences within the group resulting from the moss trait being bred into other OGRs. Some are clearly Centifolias-with-moss, others might be Portlands-with-moss or Hybrid Perpetuals-with-moss. But if you erase the moss, the plants are still clearly OGRs.

Fast-forward to the 20th Century, and Ralph Moore's mini roses started being bred with the OGR Mosses. In doing so, he transferred the moss-trait into modern mini roses, and continued breeding to more modern mini roses to dilute the OGR influence. When you see one of his Mini-Mosses today, the plant will clearly be a modern-type rose, but with the moss characteristic.

Thus, while "Moss Roses" are an OGR class, they really originally refer only to the mossy Centifolias, Damasks, and Portland-like roses. These are OGR plants with the moss characteristic. But if you have a modern rose with the moss characteristic, it's not an OGR Moss.

In all honesty, I'd actually prefer the class was just eliminated, being as it's built upon one characteristic which can appear in (potentially) any other class. What if someone today bred mossed Hybrid Teas? How would those plants look when lumped together with 'William Lobb' into the same class? It'd be more accurate to put the Centifolia-mosses into the Centifolia class, and simply list all the Centifolias as either "mossed" or "un-mossed". Same for the repeat-blooming OGR mosses -- put them into either the Portland or Hybrid Perpetual classes, whichever fits them better, and have "mossed" or "un-mossed" Portlands and Hybrid Perpetuals. And for the modern Mosses, stick them into an appropriate category as you would if the plant was unmossed. But that's just me.....

:-)

~Christopher

Well, I always think of the "true" moss as the original centifolia mosses. At one time extensively grown for perfume in France, the centifolias are rather ungainly as plants, but full of history.

The mossing trait was encouraged in the Romantic era, the early nineteenth century, it is a development of prickles and has a pine-like fragrance.

Then there is "Mousseline", which I think is a damask perpetual, i.e., it reblooms some. People rave about this -- the silky beauty of the petals, but they say that its mossing is sparser and and it fragrance rather different from that of the Common Moss group.

Then there are the modern hybrid mosses, such as developed by Barden and Moore, which have some china in them for continuous bloom and and infusion of more brilliant colors than are found in the old European roses.

"Oh no man knows through what wild centuries roves back the Rose"

So Old Mosses are often once-blooming while Modern Mosses are often reblooming and usually have China genes in them. I see. Thanks for the info.

Also, I went back to our nursery today to double check if the other similar white roses being sold in the stall I bought mine from have no fuzziness on them. NONE of them exhibited the fuzziness mine had. I checked the blooms and the foliage, and they were EXACTLY THE SAME bar the fuzzies. I am now very convinced that this rose I bought is a sport.

I also tried rubbing the fuzzies again but for a longer period of time. This time a faint aroma wafted in the air. I couldn't describe what it smelled like but it's different from smell of the foliage. I'm gonna take pictures of the "moss" up close tomorrow to see if they have the resin-like things on them like true mosses do.

As promised, here are the fuzzies up close.

Great closeup photo of fuzzies. All said, it is a graceful rose, with attractive foliage. Very nice.

True. The fuzzies are only the icing on the cake. It's not very greedy with its pollen too! Unlike most of my roses which need to have their stamens ground to release pollen. I'm happy to have bought this one.

This post was edited by Resolute_Noir on Sat, Nov 23, 13 at 3:00

What about R. fedtschenkoana? Wasn't Kim getting mossed seedlings from its crosses? And hasn't it been DNA confirmed as a distant parent of Alba Semi Plena & some of the old damasks?

I'm just wondering, since it is an Asian rose if it may have been used to develop some of the roses available in commerce there & contributed some mossing.

I have absolutely no idea what it is, but it does indeed look mossy to me. Who knows, maybe someone has been doing some unconventional rose breeding for your climate. Or maybe yours is an interesting sport. I'm glad you bought it. Such an unusual rose should not be ignored.

Rosefolly

Hmmm... Well, similarities that I can note between my rose an Fedtschenkoana are these:

*Cluster-flowering
*White Flowers (Petals are different though)
*5-7 leaflets
*Leaflets look like they are somewhat closed or folded along the middle
*Some mossing

However, unlike Fedtschenkoana, my rose has very few, tiny prickles which are usually found near the underside of leaf stipules. I haven't seen any red in this plant either. New growth is a light yellow-green and becomes green as it matures.

I have yet to see the hips though. I just pollinated the flowers so it's gonna be months before I see 'em. I also cross-pollinated one flower with a pink Tea I had to see if it is compatible with other roses and what traits it may pass on.

This post was edited by Resolute_Noir on Sun, Nov 24, 13 at 22:29

BTW, guys. My rose looks an awful lot like ICEBERG being a white-flowered floribunda. I dunno about the leaves though. Does Iceberg has 5-7 leaflets like mine has?

If this is Iceberg, do we have Not-so-Mossy Iceberg now? Doesn't Iceberg have quite a number of sports too?

This post was edited by Resolute_Noir on Tue, Nov 26, 13 at 10:37