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Amaryllis/Hippeastrum
elizabeth_jb

Ploidy - Diploid vs Tetraploid

19 years ago

Cindeaa asked about ploidy of hippeastrum. Since there seems to be so little understanding on this topic (myself included), I thought I would start a new topic for Cindeea and others like me.

Cindeaa, basically the older varieties such as the species are diploid. The modern hybrids tend to be tetraploids. The flowers are larger because there are twice as many chromosomes as the diploids.

When hybridizing, you will obtain greater success (more viable seeds) by crossing diploid with diploid and tetraploid with tetraploid. Hans and others have successfully created many beauties that are a cross between diploid (for example Papilio) and tetraploids. You will not always be successful and will usually get only a few seeds if any. Many times the seedlings will not survive. When they do, you have something very special, and if all goes well, you can hybridize the new 'special' bulb.

Obvously, all of this takes years and years of dedication, but the personal satisfaction is very rewarding.

Sometimes, certain varieties are simply pod sterile (meaning they will not produce a pod with viable seeds) and sometimes their pollen is not fertile.

That's a start, and I hope others will add a lot of knowledge and experience to this topic.

Hope it helps!

Here is a link that might be useful: Daylily Ploidy

Featured Answer
  • 19 years ago

    Actually, Tet with Tet is easy with the exception of Appleblossom. Most of the commonly available varieties sold for winter holidays are Tets, so dab away at your heart's content.

    It's not until you start adding the more unusual and less available varieties that you start running into the problem of ploidy. I have reason to believe that H. x Johnsonii is diploid, but I won't know for sure until I do some very careful crosses and document them better than I have in the past.

    I think that Exotic Star is diploid. I know that Papilio and the cybisters are diploid.

    I think that Amputo, Pink Floyd and Misty are diploid.

    Last year was my first year to try to obtain diploids for trial. This year, I concentrated harder on that.

    Most of what I have are Tets, so I can try both ways and get a better feel for what is what.

    I question Santa Cruz because I think it is the Ludwig site that lists it among its cybisters. That would indicate diploid. It is definitely miniature and quite beautiful. Only one of my four pods are making it. I did not tag them, but I do know that one out of four was pollenated with Lima. Thankfully, there is another scape forming, and I can use pollen from diploids that are forming scapes. That will give me an indication, but it won't be written in stone until there are many trials with better documentation.

    With daylilies, they say that you can look at the pollen under a microscope and see the difference. I don't know if you can do that with hippeastrum.

    I adore orchids, but gave up on them due to lack of greenhouse space. I still have two in my master bathroom and they are doing fine.

    If I had your swimming pool enclosure and climate, it would look like a jungle!

    Comments (11)

    • 19 years ago

      Oh my goodness...that's intense, Elizabeth! I read everything over twice and I am astounded at the complications of it all. I do miss Hans, he has so much knowledge that he can mince into every-day understanding. You did a fine job in your explanation, liz. So newer varieties are tetraploids, harder to cross because their color and size has been enhanced to create a more pleasing bloom? Makes sense. Most people throw away orchids, amaryllis and other ornamentals when received as gifts. I actually have a tag on one of my very fragrant orchids (a burana)for $40 usually that I got on a Lowes ready-to-die rack for $14 and nursed back to blooming. The tag says for care after blooms fade, throw away. We can always get you a new one with flowers ready to bloom! Thanks so much liz for the insight. My head is spinning!

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    • 19 years ago

      Hey, Cindeaa!

      All this takes a while to set in... I remember that it took awhle for me. I just kept asking a lot of dumb questions, but that was with daylilies. I haven't found that much info on hippi's.

      So, lets make it simple. If the bloom is big, put the pollen on a big bloom.

      If it is small, put it on a small one.

      That usually works until someone tells you better....

      One step at a time, and I've gotta admit, I have a lot more steps to make to understanding all of this.

    • 19 years ago

      Wondering now, elizabeth, since I crossed my Exotic Star with Red Lion. I have pods on both RL and ES...should I expect them to abort? (always love brain food...thanks for the help)

    • 19 years ago

      To be honest, this is my first year with Exotic Star and since it hasn't bloomed yet, I do not have first hand experience.

      Do keep us posted, okay?

    • 19 years ago

      OK! The pods are plumping, I must say. So time will tell my hippi-friend.

    • 19 years ago

      Keep us posted!!!!

    • 19 years ago

      Found this on a USDA site in a paper on H. puniceum as a possible invasive. I'm not kidding.

      ""The overwhelming majority of Hippeastrum species are diploid, with somatic chromosome number of 2n = 22 (Arroyo 1982, Flory & Coulthard 1981, Naranjo & Andrada 1975). Virtually all of the complex hybrid material presently in cultivation is tetraploid (Bell 1973a, 1973b, 1977a, Shields 1979), a result of both selection for tetraploid progeny (often associated with plant and flower size increases in hybrid amaryllis) and incorporation of a few natural tetraploid species in early hybridization efforts. The concentration of recent commercial breeding efforts among the various populations of tetraploids may exist for several reasons: 1) desirable characteristics of flower size, scape number, and plant vigor are already stabilized in the hybrid races; 2) sterile triploid progeny result when diploid species are crossed with tetraploid hybrids (Bell 1973b, 1977a); 3) many of the diploid species are not readily available; and 4) self-incompatibility, which occurs in most diploid species and diploid hybrids, generally."

      R.

    • 19 years ago

      Geeze, that's a brain stuffer, Robert! It does make it a bit more clear...sort of. I think I will store all this away and still try to just give it my best efforts. Eliz-With regard to the Exotic Star/Red Lion Crosses. The Exotic Star seems to be taking the Red Lion great, producing a very plump seed pod. The ExStar cross with itself is shriveling as is the ExStar pollen on the Red Lion. Still I am finding all this pollinating a real adventure, trial and error as it may be. You guys are great helping me understand! Thanks so much. I have been having a blast experimenting.

    • 19 years ago

      Last year I had a very good yield in seedlings 'exotic star' X cybister 'reggae' and some seedlings 'exotic star' X cybister 'toscane'. They are all in a strong and healthy state now.
      thys

    • 6 years ago

      why is appleblossom not easy to hybridize ? I did a cross with Orange sovereign (pollen) and Appleblossom (pod) set many fertilize seeds when receiving pollen, but OS when did not when appleblossom was pollen parent.

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