Years ago, we had a very late winter storm that blew over a lot of white pines. We may have been the only people in the neighborhood with more than two white pines that didn't lose any. A couple of years after that, somebody either in the Tree forum or the Conifer forum was talking about planting conifers surrounded by grass instead of the common wisdom of mulch circles. His reasoning was that he lived in an area with plains wind, and the grass would help keep the trees anchored. Given my experience with the white pines, that clicked. None of the trees that uprooted had lawn anywhere near them. The previous owners of our house had gone to heroic lengths to try to grow grass under those trees, and some of it still survived. A couple of feet away from the trunks it was even fairly decent. So the operating theory is that the interwoven grass roots over a large area keep the tree root underground where they belong.

Fewer years ago, in the New England forum, there was the classic line about Arborvitae 'they get so big, then they fall down'. That has been my experience with them along the east coast. They simply are not built to stand up to heavy wet snow, and wind without the buffering provided by a lot of other trees. They don't necessarily get uprooted, but break off fairly close to the ground. Red cedar will do the same thing.

Mad, I think it depends on what is meant by arborvitae. I've got a woods full of the native tree-straight Thuja occidentalis-and I've seen sizable ones bent almost to the ground under snow load, only to spring back up later, as if nothing had happened. These being actual trees are primarily single-stemmed plants.

As far as the turf grass root matrix, I really have no idea if that has any merit.

Woodswalker, that is too bad about those spruce. Any chance you can get some photos on here showing the extent of the soil bulging and so on? My immediate reaction is that they are very likely compromised, but it would help to see what's what.

+oM

You need to make a determination about the threat to structures etc which is posed by that second spruce. Its hard to know what's going on underground unless its very obvious (so like Tom said, photos help).

If its not obviously leaning, and not in danger of falling ON TOP OF anything like a house, car, etc, then I'd consider leaving it until nature took its course.

Oh, and as far as the suggestion to pile dirt on top: That's probably not going to help, and may well hurt any recovery of the tree. It may end up KILLING the roots instead of helping them recover.

Also, rope is not likely to help a 50 foot tree. Guy wires like the ones used for big antennae towers, maybe, but they would need to be installed by a professional. And of course, that's not going to look pretty.

On the other hand, if some of the roots have already been snapped off underground, a couple of lame shovelfuls of earth aren't going to stand up to another 70 mph gust of wind. Also, winter & snow are coming and the threat of blizzards.

==>> BINGO!!! ... and a few little wires and posts arent going to matter either ... IMHO ... unless the posts are AT LEAST one half the size of the tree .. and the cables correspondingly large [and that isnt going happen]

a few pix MIGHT help us.. help you ..

but frankly.. grass matrix aside.. i will yell..

===>>> YOU NEED THE OPINION.. ONSITE.. OF ONE OR TWO PROFESSIONAL ASA CERTIFIED ARBORISTS .. money well spent.. i dont mean some guy with a chainsaw and a magnetic sign on his 76 chevy truck ...

you suggest .. but provide no facts.. about the inherent risks of it falling on you.. or the neighbors ... etc ...

suck it up.. put aside the touchy-feely stuff about losing them ...

and we can discuss replacement alternatives .. during the next planting season ... wherever you are ... i have not kept track of your multiple posts.. so i am not familiar.. at this typing if you added facts elsewhere [of course.. as soon as i hit send.. etc ..] ...

and just to get you thinking in the right direction.. no tree/conifer ... stops growing at some magical 15 foot height ... its all about understanding potential.. and planting them a proper distance from the house ... and if you are planting trees so that a 16 footer will hit the house.. perhaps you are planting too close to the house ... pix.. more info.. etc.. will get suggestions better than pure speculations ...

regardless.. we have all winter to discuss such.. lets get a pro or two out there.. to give us some real facts about the monster ... and then go from there ...

good luck

ken

OK I have a few pix. The trees are maybe 15-20 ft from the house, with a road on the other side. They are about 30 yrs old judging from the rings on the stump. I have only lived here 2 yrs. I believe they are spruces! The closeups of the roots aren't glaringly obvious but I circled a few of the areas in red. I seem to only be able to upload one image at a time so I'll write another message for another pic.

Here is a general pic of what the tree looks like. It is on a slight hill so I can't be sure if it is leaning more than it was before.

A 3rd message, What kind of trees can people suggest to replace these old giants? (there are 2 more of them left beyond the one in this pic. The house will lose its shade / privacy on this side now.

the lean says.. its gotta go ... thank God its leaning away from the house ... i think????

unless others here think there is something i am missing.. forget about spending money on a pro opinion.. just hire the guy with the chainsaw and the magnet sign.. ONLY AFTER HE SHOWS YOU PROOF OF INSURANCE ... get 3 estimates here ... [i got one done rather cheap.. because all i asked was that he 'make it fall down' safely .. and i pulled out my chainsaw.. and burned it all ... wonder what the name of that post was ....]

where is the property line ... what can be put there depends on many variables.. not provided ...

ken

ps: another link for disposal.. depending on where you live:

http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/load/trees/msg0515344325296.html?2

Here is a link that might be useful: ahh i found it ....

>the lean says.. its gotta go ... thank God its leaning away from the house ... i think????

it is hard to say whether the lean is any more than it was before. Being as I could not previously view it from that angle as the first tree was in the way.

It doesn't lean far enough that it looks "unstable" as it is pretty fat & big around.
>where is the property line ... what can be put there depends on many variables.. not provided ...

there is no property line, it borders a road.

Yeah I have a number of a guy who does lawns, shrub/tree removal, snow removal etc. Just an all purpose guy, very reasonable. But if I hired pro arborists, I'd pay top dollar & I'd only do that if I thought there was a chance of saving it. For starters I guess I need to get opinions.

WW, in that condition, it's definitely a danger. Question is, danger to what? Since it seems that it's leaning away from house and near as I can tell, towards road (?), it may be reasonable to adopt the old wait and see attitude. That is, if it's not a road where nuns bring orphans to set up lemonade stands.

My point being, there is some risk. It's your call how much of that risk you can take. It's not inconceivable that with good growing conditions in the next year or so, coupled with no strong winds from the same direction, coupled with a bit of luck, it might root back in solidly. But neither myself nor anyone else can guarantee that set of circumstances will prevail!

+oM

Here's my opinion.
I would take it out as soon as possible. The tree that went down in front of it was partially blocking the wind. Now it's exposed to the wind with a weakened attachment to the ground. The stormy season is just beginning. What are you waiting for?
Mike

Tall replacement for that location? Bald cypress or dawn redwood. Pyramidal shape while under 100 years old can not be beat.

The dawn redwood is beautiful but I think it's too big for the location! I don't really need another HUGE tree. There's about 30 ft between my house & the road. In the above pic, note the location of the Mailbox, that is where the Road starts.
As for the bald cypress, it loses its leaves in the winter, so I don't want that.
The main requirements are, it should be tolerant of drought & clay soil, this is southeastern PA zone 6a, I would like something that is fairly fast-growing, at least enough to shield/shade the house itself within a few years. Probably an evergreen, although if I have to take down the 2nd spruce I might vary the lineup with some kind of large shrub. Again,it doesn't have to be 50 ft high... 15 or 20 is fine.
There are still 2 remaining spruces which seem to be unaffected, and if they went down, they would just fall on the power line & not the house :)

I'll probably try & go with some kind of leyland cypress or Arborvitae as they seem to be the most readily obtainable 'border tree'. Unfortunately they don't have that nice canopy that you can lie under...

I was thinking perhaps the Green Giant arb. Even with their much-touted fast growth, it'll take a while to hit fifty feet.

+oM

Eastern Red Cedar might be a good choice given your requirements.
A Holly tree of some sort might be another suggestion. We have used Nelly-Stevens holly down here to good effect to aid in a screen. Not sure how far north it is good for. Perhaps someone will chime in and suggest a better Holly if there is one.

There really isn't any evergreens that will grow really fast to 15 feet and then stop.

How about Ilex opaca?

I googled "protecting your trees from hurricanes" and got a site that said "One word: TRIMMING". I thought that was good advice. I'm going to trim the trees that I have left. For starters all the big overhanging boughs that are sure to catch snow.

My neighbor (an all-around Yard Guy) says 'sure, you can trim off the top 1/3 of the remaining tree. It will look like crap but at least it will be less likely to damage your house."

I said "it won't look as much like crap as a blank space."
Anyway who looks way up at tall trees? Motorists just drive by and there's not a lot of foot traffic, a few folks walking their dogs is all. A pretty low-density neighborhood.

I'm the only one who really looks at the trees/landscaping in my yard.

So perhaps it is worth a try.

DON'T DO IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Seriously, it really isn't wise to lop a tree back by 1/3. worst mistake you'll ever make in gardening, guaranteed.

I agree. Don't do it.
Where I live it's the branches that break off and go through the roof. You can prune the ones that look like they will catch more snow or wind than they can handle. I've taken all the large branches on some conifers and left the small ones. It lessens the sail, or ability to catch wind, snow or ice.
It doesn't hurt the look of the tree at all. In fact, pruning that way, enhances the look in a lot of cases. Sure beats topping them.
Mike

Eh, according to many it sacriledge to top a conifer.

I consider it acceptable if it will save the tree from total doom. It DOES, shockingly, happen in nature sometimes. Of course, you have to understand that it will never get its original shape back. Topping a large conifer will result in a freak tree.

The branches that grow upward from just below the cut to try and fill the void will also be weakly attached and more prone to breakage. But that's something to worry about 10 or 20 years down the road.

I will now get berated severely ;)

QUOTE: Seriously, it really isn't wise to lop a tree back by 1/3. worst mistake you'll ever make in gardening, guaranteed.

Could you elaborate? Is it a mistake cause it looks bad, or because it will harm the tree? Bear in mind, the alternative is removing the tree altogether. So if I screw it up & have to remove the tree... nothing lost.

Unless the next poster has a point, about trimming & removing branches as a way to prevent the tree from going down.

These trees are very fat & big around. That's probly why they caught the wind & one of them went down. Suppose I shortened some of the branches, had some removed... or hired a pro to do it (since I really don't know what I'm doing.)

Someone else may be able to explain it better but, I'll try . When you top a tree you are pruning in a way that makes it impossible for the tree to compartmentalize the wounds in the best way, and results in weak sprouts, or some trees may not send out any new branches at all, or not for several years. Pruning is best when you prune to the branch collar. Not too close to the trunk and not too far out from the trunk. In other words, slightly out from the branch collar, so it can compartmentalize the cut. Stubs left exposed can't heal right. You probably know this, but I put it out there anyway.

Also it is my understanding when you cut the top of a tree, rot will develop at the cut and slowly destroy the tree.

If you think it must go take it out, It you want to give it a chance give it a chance, BUT don't cut of the top.

If you want to take it out go down to the rental agency and get an appropriate size chain saw. Since it is a pine, cut the branches on the opposite side from the direction you want the tree to fall and cut it down using the proper techniques.

Around here you can rent a chipper for about $175/day, and a chain saw for about $50. Cut the trunk in to 14 to 20 foot lengths and split them so they can be added to the chipper.

You will then have accomplished two thing, gotten rid of the tree and gained some good mulch for around your yard.

Lastly BE CAREFULL. Learn about the chain saw, and think through every cut be for you even start the saw.

Besides it is fun cutting down the tree then feeding the branches into the chipper.