I'm using it and I LOVE it. Cuttings rooted faster when treated with it as compared to those that were not treated. Hoya blooms spurs swelled, bloomed and more bloom spurs are being produced. After treating the Amaryliss they produced bloom stalks and bloomed in ten days!!! Coincidence? Maybe but don't think so. I'm finding the same results as Gordon.

I have no issues with it being called a growth enhancer as it appears that it in fact does stimulates active growth. But the Eden site lists many benefits and it's not being soley marketed as a growth enhancer. Just one of many benefits of using their product. In fact it is registered with the EPA as a biopesticide.

Here is a link to the label:
http://www.edenbio.com/newdocuments/MessengerSpecLabel_US_Eng_current.pdf

The harpin protein in Messenger is made from e-coli bacterium, not the naturally occurring strain that is found in fire blight as explained by the EPA:

"In nature, Harpin is produced by Erwinia amylovora, a bacterium that causes the disease fire blight in apples and pears. A weakened strain of Escherichia coli was modified to produce Harpin on a commercial scale. Commercially produced Harpin protein is identical to the protein that occurs in nature. E. coli K-12 is considered to be a non-pathogenic, nutritionally deficient bacterium which is unable to grow in the environment. Harpin is concentrated from the growth medium of the genetically modified E. coli, and the bacterial cells are killed and removed from the marketed product."

Garden's Alive sells a product that also contains the "harpin" protein. They don't say how much it contains tho. Thier product called Green Guard is not registered with the EPA as a biopesticide so they can call it just about anything they want (except a pesticide). They are actively marketing this as a plant growth enhancer and say this product "acts like a plant hormone, fungicide and fertilizer all in one". There is no MSDS or Product label available on the site.

You can read more below....

Here is a link that might be useful: EPA on Harpin protein

A surprising co-incidence, I happened to have another window still open after reading up on Messenger when I came here. Initially I saw a write-up in Fine Gardening.

The site recommends frequent applications at 14 - 21 day intervals. The mix should end up costing between $3 - 5/ gallon after mixing per directions if buying in small quantities.

Al

Here is a link that might be useful: Messenger

True that it's far more expensive than anything I usually buy, but I find it goes a very long way as a foliar application. 3 quarts will treat eveything I have (about 75 plants of various sizes) for about 5 cents per plant. I can treat just the cuttings and small starts (25, 4" pots) with one pint of solution.

Garden's Alive! carries the same hormone under the name Green Guard. The order is for 3 separate packets, each making 3 gallons for $19.95, but they don't say how far an application will go. You have to toss the opened packet after 3 weeks.

Sorry - I didn't notice that someone had already posted that info.

But anyway, Eden gets $9.98 for 3 gallons, so GA is cheaper...BUT if you can't use 3 gallons at a time, Eden would be more cost effective. Anyone know how far a gallon goes?

I just bought Messenger today from the feed store of all places. It was $20.00 for a pack with 3 smaller packages in it. Each one makes 1-3 gallons. So it sounds like it is just about the same price as Garden's Alive.

I havn't tried it yet, but look forward to it. My husband got to hear about this product several years before it came out and I've been dying to see the results ever since. I'm really hoping it will help with my blackspot.

madspinner, you got robbed. the same three packets sell for $9.95 on the manufacturer's web site www.edenbio.com, where you also will find a toll-free number to identify other local retailers.

I'm hoping that madspinner bought one of the of the 3 pack clamshells (each clamshell has 3 smaller packs of the product). The 3 pack spceial makes 9 gallons and sells on the manufacturer's web site for $20. If not, well madspinner really did pay too much!!

I would be interested to know how the 'weakened' strain of Escherichia coli was modified to produce the harpin protein. I checked the Epa link and several others and could find no reference to the actual process. Anybody know or care to take a guess? Is this considered organic?

Doubt you will find any links to the actual process. The genetic modification is probably trade secret.

It is a matter of selection, not much a secret, but likely is a way of saying non-infectious strain and making it sound like they did some real work. They may have just used some poop to culture it.

E. coli inhabits your digestive system acting to produce some of the B complex vitamins for you to absorb as its rent for the coziness of your bowels. Every time I hear good old E. coli blamed for illess it pains me when they omit the "infectious strain" part.

Either way, it is organic.

Alan

A little more complicated than just culturing some random poop, oh cynical one, LOL!

From what i can find online and greatly simplified:

Harpin is a product of the (HrpN) gene found in the bacteria Erwinia amylovora (that causes fireblight in the rose family) is cloned and inserted into cultured E. coli K-12 (a strain dies too quickly to become pathenogenic in humans). When applied to plants in certain concentrations it increases growth,
increases disease resistance and seems to ward off insect attacks in many plants.

Here is a link that might be useful: Cornell University Researchers and EdenBioscience

Rosa, I'm not clear on this last post so I checked the link you provided and saw nothing about cloning...in post above, dated Feb. 20, you describe the creation of harpin very differently. Have you found new information, if so would you kindly provide a link? Thanks.
I did read somewhere in my research that Eden has applied to have Messenger certified for organic production. If this is true, I doubt that cloning is part of the process. I did e-mail Eden and the OMRI, will post if I recieve any response.

gardengyrl,
Actually the post of Feb 20th was directly from the EPA website. Not my words at all.
Cloning is nothing more than replication of an exact copy of the original. Not sure what definition of organic you're using. Perhaps I shouild have used the word replicated instead? As Alan already mentioned, it's organic either way.

Link below. Scroll to results section.

Here is a link that might be useful: Harpin gene research

Thank you Rosa for the link. Yes, I understood the Feb. post was from the Epa.
And you are right, cloning is perfectly fine in organic agriculture, depending upon how it is done. Because my farm is certiied organic my definition of orgainc is now determined by the USDA. No offense to Alan, but I'll wait until the OMRI determines that the process of producing harpin meets their standards. Something may be biologically orgainc and still not meeet their requirements.

I got an e-mail today from Zhongmin Wei the VP of Eden Bioscience Corp. He states that, " the gene modification
(used to produce the harpin protein) will not occur in nature or by nature." Because of this process the OMRI does not consider it acceptable for organic application. He did add a yet to this. It sounds like they may be trying to come up with a process of producing harpin that would be acceptable for organic applicaitons. I look forward to this.

Thanks for the update, gardengyrl. Maybe they will come up with something or organic gardeners. I really like this product.

I don't understand why you're saying madspinner got robbed. The 9-gallon pack (that's *up to* 9 gallons) at eden is $19.98 +shipping. Madspinner got it for $20 and no shipping.

http://www.edenbio.com/xcart/customer/product.php?productid=1&cat=3&page=1

Sorry, but I wasn't clear that madspinner actually bought the 9 pack. One clamshell also could easily be described as a pack with 3 smaller packages in it that makes from 1-3 gallons.

Well, hopefully it's similar to this one:
" 3 x 0.25 oz single dose packets of Messenger®. Each packet makes 3 gallons of spray solution"

Which is fundamentally the same as the Green Guard that I bought from Gardens Alive! Now I'm trying to figure out when the best time to use it will be - on my slow starting seedlings (what with our cool weather, always a problem) - but how will I use up three gallons - or after things heat up? Hmm.

Sounds like it. Each 0.25 oz. packet makes one gallon according to the instructions from Eden.
The first time I treated all my plants with one gallon in a a sprayer.
Now I just mix smaller quantities when I need it since you have to use it within 4 hours of mixing. 1/8 teaspon = 2 cups of solution. This way I can treat only what I need, a couple of plants, some cuttings, seedlings. Don't worry you'll find a way to use it when you see how well it works!!

I bought enough to give it more than a fair try. Package directions specific in that contents should be used same day as opening & mixed product within 4 hours. Any discussion on whether that is a way to get you to buy more product or if there might be a reason it "loses its fizz"?

Al

Was wondering about this myself, Al.

Have been sealing opened packages then using without any noticeable difference in results. Did not see any difference in color or appearance of the Messenger from the opened packages.

Karen

Karen
"without any noticeable difference in results" indicates you observed results after using the product? Your comments, please?

I have around 100 trees & shrubs in training for bonsai. I intend to use the product on them. Since I am so intimately familiar with the growth habits of the individual plants, I think I will have a good feel by summer's end for the effectiveness (or lack of? - let's hope not) of the product.

If there is still interest in this thread come Autumn, I'll be happy to add my observations.

Al

Al,

Sorry if I was unclear.

What I meant to say was that I don't notice a difference between using the opened vs. unopened packages.

What I do notice, which the instructions do mention, is that the plants have to be sufficiently fertilized to sustain a rapid increase in growth.

Don't know whether this would be good for bonsai, because you really don't want them to grow too large, but then, I know nothing about growing bonsai--your call.

Would be interested in hearing about your results.

Karen

Hi Al
my package directions specifically say to use what is mixed in 4 hours and use the contents of the unopened package within 3 weeks.
have those instructions changed??
I have kept opened packets for more than 3 weeks and have not noticed a difference in how the product works.

Also, I went to order yesterday and discovered that they are selling 1) single packets and 2) enough for 100 gallons. Can't find the 3 pack clamshells or 9 pack clamshells on the site now.

I assume if you use this, you don't use Superthrive as well?

Hi, Meg. Who are you asking? If me - I don't use it (ST) on established plants, only repot/root-prunes anyway.

I haven't started the Messenger program yet because I've been so busy with the gardens, but hopefully this weekend will offer opportunity to begin its use at 2 week intervals on all my potted stuff.

Al

Meg, I continue to use SuperThrive, just as I did before using Messenger.

Have used Messenger twice now since active growing season has finally begun, and am more pleased than ever with the results. It's amazing how quickly everything looks better.

Happy growing, Karen

Forgot to say: Be sure that your plants are adequately fertilized before using Messenger. It promotes growth so quickly that you have to be sure your plants have the nutrients necessary to sustain rapid growth.

I used it on some young beech trees I planted as a hedge. They were not doing well, and now two weeks after spraying them, I see new growth, even on one that I had taken for dead! I also applied it to my roses but they already showed signs of blackspot when I applied it, so I don't know if did anything because the blackspot is still there. But the blooms seem larger than I remember last year, although I have also been feeding them lots of organic material this year... So who knows.

I am *always* happy to see a response from you, Al :-) Appreciate the others as well. I fertilize weekly (pot culture, and it's been scorching, so I'm doing a LOT of watering), alternating between Neptune Harvest fish and seaweed feritilizer and Earth Juice. My Messenger just arrived today, so if I fertilize on Monday, when would be a good time to use it? Right after? WAit a few days?

I plan on starting my Messenger applications tomorrow if it doesn't rain, so I can't be of much help here. I'll give it a summer's worth of applications before I decide how I like it. I'm really curious about how it well it might work.

Al

Has anyone had any experience in using the mixed Gardens Alive procuct "Green Guard" again 3 or 4 weeks after first application? In other words, I didn't use it all and it's time to spray again. I'm interested in knowing whether I need to dump the mix still in the sprayer and start with a new batch.

John

Over the weekend, I treated my plants to the third application of messenger at approx two week intervals. I applied it to about 100 trees & shrubs in training for bonsai, about 30 containers I have scattered about the garden, and another 50 or so smaller individual potted plantings. At each application, I included a foliar feeding of 5-1-1 fish emulsion and a Daconil treatment.

I build all my own soils & have a good relationship with them. They perform very well & I have pretty much worked out all the problems. This allows me to keep containerized plants looking near their peak potential. For that reason, I cannot say with any certainty that my plants look better than in past years, but I think they do. I can also say that I think bloom time is extended. I have 2 plantings of containerized pansies that are still blooming strongly & looking good. In past years, they had faded by this time. I have eliminated temperature as the reason they still look, as we've gone through a couple of really hot spells that should have laid them low, but it could be something I'm unaware of, still. Other bloomers I regularly pot up seem to have more persistent blooms as well. All the containers are showing lush green foliage & are producing plenty of blooms, but as noted, its not much of a departure from normal. It's difficult to make short term judgments on the trees & shrubs for bonsai, so I'm observing floral stuff most carefully.

I'm usually very careful about drawing conclusions from what would surely be considered anecdotal observations, so I have to say "The jury's still out", but I'll continue to observe for the rest of the summer.

Al

Hello all - new here!

This is a very interesting post to me, because I'm working currently in a lab specializing in plant-pathogen interactions. Hopefully you'll all forgive me for briefly stepping on a little tangent in regards to organic methods:

I do have a question for gardengyrl: What exactly is considered organic? Do you have any literature about this? The process of cloning a gene using bacteria is used quite often in practice. Because bacteria (modified or natural) replicate so fast, so does the protein (in this case, harpin) along with the bacteria. In fact, the insulin that many diabetics take was once produced en masse by inserting the insulin-making gene into bacteria and then allowing the bacteria to replicate.

Also, I know lots of organic methods of pesticide control work on extracts from plants. So would it be inorganic to modify the plants to over-express these certain chemicals so that less plants need to be farmed to produce the extract?

I'm curious because I've recently begun to run an organic garden, and am still not clear as to the classification of organic or inorganic.

Apologies to you all for this offtopic post - please continue to post your results with this product - I'm interested to see any other results you might have! :)

Hello everyone. I'm revisiting the prior discussion on Harpin. It looks like some of you have been using it for several years now and I'm very curious about what results you've seen. I have all container plants as I live in a Condo, some indoors and many on my balcony. I also have many Bonsai, indoor and out. I'm particulary interested in hearing from Al who grows Bonsai,etc on his experience with it. I've ordered it from Garden's Alive and got in on special for $14.75, plus $6.95 shipping (outrageous considering it was only 3 small packets).
Any additional feedback on this product would be most appreciated.
Thanks,
Mark
San Diego, CA

Mark,

Still using it, and still very happy with the results. Also alternating with SprayNGrow.

Just make sure that your plants are adequately fertilized before using. They'll absorb water and nutrients very quickly after spraying. I notice a difference within a day or two.

Used to live in Ocean Beach years ago. You have the ideal growing climate out there.

Good growing,
Karen

Thanks for the feedback Karen. I'll definitely make sure my plants are fertilized before using it.
How long ago did you live in OB? My room mate lived there from the late 60s until late 80s. We're in Mission Valley now.
By the way, I lived in NYC from 77 to 83 in Chelsea, above the Angry Squire Restaurant (not sure if it's still there). They had the greatest Shepherds Pie! I really miss NYC (except the weather, LOL).
What is "Spray N Grow"? Doesn't look like the price of Harpin has changed much in the past 2 years, but if it works the way most people say it does, will be well worth the investment.
Regards,
Mark
San Diego

It works! I've read a bit about it and saw it discussed about its performance on other sites, so I thought that I'd try it. It works well with mixing it with organic liquid fertilizers, which is what I grow with, and it helps the uptake. I'm no scientist, but it seemed to perform well for me. Any one else with good results? Or bad? I'd like to know how it worked for you.

Almost two years of blather and ZERO presentation of results of controlled experiments! This has no place in a Botany forum!

Look; it's simple. Just don't spray all of your plants of the same type with Messenger and compare the ones that you sprayed with those you didn't spray. How hard is that?

hahaha.

dilbert I just found this thread a few minutes ago. I read down the thread and kept asking myself how come they dont take a few flowers and not spray them and a few flowers and spray them and notice the difference if any.

The only reason I can think of is that once a person spends big money on a tiny spray they have a vested interest in taking the position that they did the correct thing. therefore they are only interested in showing that their spending of the money was the correct decision. they are not interested in finding out the entire thing is a hoax.

No one is going to get on this thread and say they spent $20 on a hoax. Now a true scientist will do that. but not a normal person.

so dilbert you are going to have to run the experiment yourself. of course it would be better if it was a double blind. meaning you did not know what sprayers had the chemical. you would just do the job and report the results and then you would find out after which sprayers had the chemical. but that is difficult to do.

I suspect that there is some improvement. but the real question is how much. for example if you spend $20 and spray your vegetables and get $10 more vegetables it was again not so good. but again that is very difficult to measure.

there are other organic sprays like Serenade that will protect plants and the cost is very minor. well it can be minor if you buy concentrate. so again you might have to compare the cost of $20 in spray from one item to less than a $1 cost to spray with another product. again a tricky experiment.

but you are correct. someone has to do the first simple experiment of spraying some and not spraying other plants to see what happens. trying to keep everything else identical.

by the way simple things like alfalfa pellets make a great organic tea with lots of benefits. is messanger better than the alfalfa tea. I am not so sure. of course the alfalfa tea can be sprayed on but it is often used generously on the roots because it is so low cost less than 1 cent per gallon compared to some $3 per gallon. the alfalfa tea does contain the major item in Super Thrive. I suspect that ST is simply an alfalfa tea. Now you can purchase 50 pounds of alfalfa pellets for less than the cost of a tiny ounce or so bottle of Super Thrive.

Well after dilbert's lambasting of all here I almost hesitate to post my anecdote... almost. ;-)

I have a large collection of small Japanese Maples and many have serious leaf scorch by the end of the summers like this one. This year, I increased compost tea usage and tried harpin for the first time late in the year (I didn't apply in the summer because I don't know if harpin stresses the plants ... and add'l stress is the last thing my plants need in the high summer).

What happened this year was unexpected; I had a number of Maples that totally re-leafed in the fall. I have never seen that to this extent before.

Of course they refused to accept the oncoming cold weather so they did not get fall colors ( but they weren't the only trees in central Texas this year that appeared confused about the season).

Scientific no, but I'm intrigued.

Has anyone tried the product on tomatoes?

I just bought Messenger this week and misted my tomatoes for the first time yesterday. Will post results soon. Dale

I was reading everyones idea of cloning, lol. I am a graduate student studying Molecular and cellular biology with a concentration in developmental biology. The fact that someone would claim that cloning is not organic is ridiculous. The concept of cloning is ENTIRELY based and learned from what organically does occur in bacteria. In fact, promoters (bacterial sequence that causes the expression of protein of interest) are derived from bacteria, otherwise they wouldn't work. In other words, to cause protein expression, you have to use the bacteria's own machinery, there is nothing used that is not in fact part of bacteria-that is more organic than the shoes you are wearing. Not only that, "hairpin" protein, comes from a bacteria itself-that is 100% natural. As a biologist, I sometimes can't understand the pseudo science of "organic". In fact, some of the most dangerous chemicals (neurotoxins from snakes for example) are organic. It is very dangerous to believe that organic is more healthy. I wonder if people know that the REAL defination of organic means, "contains carbon". Every other defination is not scientific at all, people should have to take chemistry and organic chemistry before they boast the effects of "organic". Another example, hormones fed to cows in the united states are 100% organic, yet they mimic estrogen (an organic compound made by all women) and thus overconsumption can cause breast cancer in women, early puberty, and sterility in men. I am certainly not proposing that all genetic engineering is safe since it is derived by processes naturally occuring by nature everyday, I am suggesting that deceiving people to believe organic is healthier is quite dangerous. Who knows what effects the messenger protein would have in nature? I would suggest worrying more about secondary effects, an example would be genetic modifications of native bacteria as a response to this protein if it becomes wide spread. This would cause bacteria to become more pathogenic. This would be a random event, but certainly more reasonable to worry about then whether the bacteria's "origin of replication, ORI in molecular biology, is in fact organic.

I know this is an old thread but I just started using this product and didn't want to start a new one and annoy people. I am using it, it seems like my roses are benefiting but no way to know for sure since I don't have any control plants.

I am wondering if anyone else uses it, thoughts, comments?

Funny, I just posted a question on this. I have used two application of this. First was foliar and second was root-drench. I have free samples, so not so concerned about the waste of root feeding. Honestly, I see no difference than before.

EdenBio is no longer in business. I was just trying to order some packets. of Messenger but the domain is up for sale and no mention of any where to buy the Messenger.

"EdenBio is no longer in business."

dilbert: "Almost two years of blather and ZERO presentation of results of controlled experiments!"

Wow, that guy, dilbert, must have been a genius! What ever happened to him?

Incidentally, spraying with aspirin is supposed to do the same thing.

Google:

"acetylsalicylic acid" "foliar spray"