The other issue is the Meyer grown from seed will need about 5 years to produce the first fruit. Also, the Meyer root is not very strong; so it may be more susceptible to some diseases, over or under watering, etc.

I thought meyer lemon does not come true from seed(one of the very few citrus that don't) and grows very well on it's own roots. A large grower in Texas roots thousands of cuttings a year.

Here is a link that might be useful: mrtexas

A rooted cutting is not a seedling. The Meyer, by best scientific evidence is a cross of an orange, a lemon, and a mandarin. As such, it is sort of hybrid and when you plant the seed you may get a tree that has one of several phenotypes; and one of several root types, none of which are predictable or necessarily good.

In 2006 I planted 500 grafted Meyers imported from California; along side them I planted 500 trees grown from seed. The grafted trees began blooming at 12 months and some produced fruit in 18 months; in four and a half years the seedling trees had yet to produce the first flower and some were tall, some bushy, some very very thorny, some only a little more thorny than the grafted trees; some grew very quickly, others were quite weak... get the idea?
All of them were Meyers and all would produce Meyer lemon fruit; but they would not be Improved Meyer Lemon; the rooted cuttings on the other hand are IML; but without the benefit of a stronger, more resistant rootstock that grafted trees would have. The upside of the rooted cuttings is they are clones; and thus are genetically older than new grafted trees, thus often producing fruit more quickly.

I need a cup of coffee. Both are MONOembryionic, both the Meyer and the Ponderosa. Most lemons are either marginially polyembryonic or are monoembryonic (except several of the italian lemons, as well as the Eureka and Lisbon, which are polyembryonic.) So no, they will not produce true from seeds. Sorry. I must not try to do two things at once, getting too old to multi-task! I had mandarins on my mind, apparently, and not lemons. Sorry about that, Toni! And, any citrus seedling (that is polyembryonic and will produce a clone of the mother plant) is going to take years and years to produce. At least 5 years, so keep that in mind. John, your seedling trees from Meyer seeds were all hybrids of some sort. A few might end up being something similar to a Meyer, but most will not. However, you could end up with an exceptional new hybrid - several great citrus out there were the result of a chance hybrid seedling. But, most will be sub-par. If you have the time, interest and space, and a lot of patience, it can be an interesting experiment. But neither will be true to seed for you, Toni. Better to buy a grafted variety if you're wanting a Ponderosa or an IML.

Patty S.

Thanks everyone.

I sowed store-bought lemon seeds
(not Ponderosa or Meyers) in 1990. Plant grew '2-3 feet,' and very very thorny at 1.5 yrs.

I thought Meyers and Ponderosa, by chance, would grow without the thorns or, at the least not as big. Thorns were 4-5-inches.

I've read seedlings, without being grafted can take up to 14-years before flowering/fruiting. Some people claim 7-years a few stated their seedlings bloomed after one-year.

Citrus trees were hard to come by here, which is the reason I started a seedling.
One advantage of the store-bought lemon. The leaves were far more fragrant, lemony, than any grafted lemon I now have.

Like I said, I was thinking about sowing seeds as an experiment, but now that thorns were mentioned, and waiting 'X' years before a flower produces, think I'll hold off. lol. Thanks everyone.

Mr. Texas, it's been a long time. Toni

PS: I have no idea how grafting is done, nor do I have the supplies, including root-stock, to do it. Thanks again

No, John, they are not.

"Meyer lemon is monoembryonic, and no nucellar seedlings have been reported. Ponderosa lemon and sweet lemon (Moreira et al., 1947) have a very low degree of polyembryony."

Quoted from "The Citrus Industry, Revised Edition, Vol II, University of California, Division of Agricultural Sciences
1967-1989 ", CHAPTER 4, Seed Reproduction: Development of Gametes and Embryos, HOWARD B. FROST and ROBERT K. SOOST.

So no, the Improved Meyer lemon is very monoembryonic, and you're going to get some sort of hybrid from a seed, better, the same or most likely sub-par of the parent(s). The Ponderosa lemon you MIGHT get a chance of polyembryony, and you'll know because you'll have multiple seedlings pop up. Select the larger, more vigorous, and you'll have a higher chance of that seedling being the clone.

And Hopeful, almost all citrus seedlings will be more thorny than their grafted counterparts. Survival reasons (less likely to be eaten by critters when they're young and tender sprouts.)

Patty S.

Guys, what does "true to seed" mean?

Ideal. When seeds are sown, and germinate, some types do not resemble parent plant. Some plants look entirely different. These are not 'true to seed.'

True to seed is the opposite. After seed germintes, it looks like parent.

Toni

Ideal, most citrus have the ability to develop a clonal seedling that is not a result of pollination. Their seeds are polyembryionic. That means that the seeds can actually develop multiple seedlingm some which develop from the germination tissues of the mother plant, and not due to being a fertilized zygote (a cross between the "mother" plant that created the fruit, and a "father" plant that provided the pollen), as well as hybrid seedlings (those cross-pollinated). The "mother" plant can create a clone of itself, so the seedling will be absolutely identical genetically to the plant bearing the fruit (and the seeds inside the fruit). Polyembryony means that the seed will send up many seedlings from one seed. Those seedlings will be either clonal or zygotic. Usually a combination of both. The clonal (not cross pollinated, but a "clone" of the mother plant) seedling tends almost always to be the strongest seedling, and often the zygotic (cross-pollinated) seedlings are forced out and die. But, you can separate them and try to grow the zygotic seedlings as well as the desired "true to seed" clonal seedling, to see what you end up with. Definitely a crap shoot, and most frequently provides a sub-par hybrid. But not always. Many of our citrus we enjoy today are the result of a chance hybrid seedling. Such as the huge 'Ponderosa' lemon, one of the more popular commercial varieties of the 'Eureka' lemon, the 'Ugli' tangelo, and the delicious 'Trovita'sweet orange. And of course, many wonderful hybrids that were purposeful attempts at cross-pollinated hybrids such as the popular Dekopon or 'Sumo' mandarin).

So, hope that makes sense. Citrus are special in this way, most being polyembryonic, but there are a few citrus that are strongly monoembryonic, so that means they never sprout a clonal seedling, and all seedlings sprouting from seeds are the result of a zygotic cross between the mother plant and whatever other citrus tree's pollen happened to pollinate that flower that created the fruit that has the seeds you want to plant :-)

Patty S.

hopeful...Just sow the seeds and see what you get. Either way you'll be growing your trees for a while, might as well see what type of tree you get from store bought seeds. Who knows maybe youll have the next best lemon variety>?

I learned in a citrus class that the improved meyer lemon is virus-free, whereas the original Meyer was virused. The instructor, a citrus grower, said that was the only difference.

Yesm eahamel. They are the same genetic tree, just the Improved Meyer no longer carries the Tristeza virus. But, I think the question isn't about the Meyer vs. the Improved Meyer (we just call it the Meyer because there are no commercially available Meyer lemon trees any longer), but a question about whether or not the (Improved) Meyer and the Ponderosa lemons will come true to seed. They will not, although you might get a slim chance with a Ponderosa seed.

Patty S.

Hello All,
I have a few seedlings that have just started to sprout, and am disappointed to read that my efforts were apparently in vain. Maybe I'll try cuttings instead. One last question for hoosierquilt though: If "all seedlings sprouting from seeds are the result of a zygotic cross between the mother plant and whatever other citrus tree's pollen happened to pollinate that flower", and the only citrus tree for miles around is my Meyer Lemon (I live in Massachusetts), does it still mean that the seeds will not come true? The tree bears fruit only when I am the pollinator, moving pollen from the stamens of some of the flowers to the pistils of others, though it does occasionally bloom in the summer, and then the flowers get pollinated by insects outdoors. Thanks again--I'm glad I found this forum; googling Meyer Lemon seed propagation takes you to lots of places that tell you that the seeds do in fact breed true, which I now understand is probably not true, sadly. I'll wait for the answer to this last question before chucking the little seedlings.
Bill

Well, is this a hypothetical or practical question? If practical, the chances would be that the zygotic cross most likely would then be a Meyer lemon, or something very close. But, I would venture to say, how do you know for absolutely sure you don't have other citrus close by? Kind of depends where you live. Even in non-citrus states, folks will bring out their container citrus, and that can be anything. If hypothetical, then your chances would be excellent the seeds in that fruit are going to sprout a Meyer lemon. And, no the tree will not only bear fruit if "you are the pollenator". Citrus are also parthenocarpic, the ability to bear fruit without the aid of pollination). Now I know what your next question is - if the fruit is producted via parthenocarpy, won't it simply be a clone of the parent tree? Good question. I would suspect that it might be a variation on the Meyer hybrid. It could be just like the parent tree, be more "lemon-like" or more "orange/mandarin" like (I think the jury is still out on where their is orange or mandarin in the genetic background of the Meyer lemon, unless UCR or another citrus research facility has mapped the genome.)

All this being said - although it can be fun to grow a citrus seedling, it can take years and years and years as John has mentioned, for a seedling tree to bear fruit. Unless you're into hybridization experiments, for most folks, buying a grafted 2 to 3 year old tree will provide you fruit within a year or two.

Ideal, I missed your question. True to seed means that the seedling will produce a plant that is the same as the parent plant the fruit came from (and produce the same fruits). So, the question was with this thread, if you plant a Meyer or Ponderosa lemon seed, will it produce a Meyer or Ponderosa lemon tree (and producing the same fruits as the parent tree.)

Patty S.

Bill and Patty.
Regarding Meyer's and pollination.

I once purchased a Meyer's at Home Depot for 10.00. It never saw the outdoors, and I didn't hand-pollinate, yet it produced flowers and fruit, indoors 13-years..
Believe me, bees were't flying around the house. lol.

My poor Meyer's did well, until dh built a gh. I stupidly placed my Meyer's in the small winter shelter. On one of the coldest nights in winter, the heater went out. I woke to find 30-something frozen plants. It's been a while so I can't recall the exact number.

But, imo, Meyer'e do not need insects to produce.

BTW, I have enough nursery-bought citrus, so decided not to sow seeds.
Don't feel like waiting X yrs, nor do I need a thorny plant.

When/If Fl's ban ends, there are a couple more 'grafted' trees I'd like to add.

Thanks for your help. Toni

Meyers do not need bees to produce fruit; but they do need bees to produce seeds.

@ Hosierquilt: What about other citrus? Do Satsumas grow true to seed? I know they are polyembryonic. If I select the largest seedling from the lot, how likely am I to get a satsuma that is similar to the fruit I ate? What about the blood orange? I have just planted a few seeds from fruit I got from the market. I ordered some bitter orange seeds and planned to graft them after the seedlings were a year old. Will it still take 7ish years to get fruit if I graft using root stock I just planted?

I teach plant science in Texas but don't know that much about citrus. I am still learning about that crop but would love to learn more. Do you work for the citrus industry through a branch of the USDA?

She's taking a break from here for a while.

satsuma should come true 95% of the time when selecting the most vigorous sprout. As long as its polyembryonic it comes true. For other varieties just google polyembryonic and the name.

Grafting does not make trees flower faster if your using juvenile buds.

Thank you. I guess I need to find some older graft wood to use. I think I know where that can be found.

Like your info Hoosier but have to disagree with you a lot on pollination. Most Bees according to recent studies on flight tracking via radar show them flying less than two miles from their hives. So if your in an area that has no other citrus the odds of a bee crossing with somebodies patio container citrus is extremely low. This would be more of a problem if you have multiple citrus and multiple bee types/hives as I do and you were trying to grow true to seed.

On top of that years and years to produce fruit is what a tree should do. You don't want citrus growing on a two year old 2 foot tree, it weights it down too much and you end up with potentially snapped branches and less leaf growth. Most small commercial guys pull off the blooms on the second and third year, in fact today I just got done pulling off a 50 owari satsuma's the size of a pea on a 5 foot tree to induce spring growth vs potential snapping etc. Two years from now that same tree will gladly hold a solid 50 medium sized satsumas at seven years old with nearly double the spread. People are way too fast with fruit trees and its not beneficial, you can also leave a couple of fruit on a younger tree 3-5 years and you'll get larger fruit and it will give you a chance to sample your tree. I wouldn't do this ever year early on but once or twice. I would rather have more fruit down the road but most of this is coming from a PHD guy I know that's research was based on citrus and he sells citrus commercially. Also what works in Cali or Texas isn't necessarily the same as Florida. I am in between the commercial Louisiana growers and Florida citrus country. Those guys around Orlando are always coming out with new stuff :)

Its interesting, I have to disagree about Meyer Lemon seeds being monoemrionic, I have a whole bunch of Meyer Lemon seeds Im sprouting and some of them are Polyembrionic, these in the pic are all Meyer Lemons and just some of the seeds Im sprouting (the one in the back is a red mango) I'm really looking forward to how these turn out being from a hybrid fruit I so far have a total of 2 Polyembrionic Meyer Lemons and I wanted to share this so ypu all know it is possible 😀 good luck in all your growing 😀

Polyembryony and nucellar seedlings aren't completely synonymous. Some cultivars can produce twin zygotic embryos ie. polyembryonic, yet both zygotic. This usually occurs at a very low frequency. It is also possible for monoembryonic seedlings to be nucellar clones of the parent tree (the early zygotic embryos aborted).

I must disagree with my old friend Hoosierquilt. Meyer Lemons do not produce true from seed. One could possibly get something close, but not true.

Meyer is indeed a zygotic cultivar, as are Ponderosa, Pummelos, Citrons and Temple tangor.

http://citruspages.free.fr/classification.php#monotypes

Most lemons are usually true to seed.

However, it is a different matter with Meyer lemons. This is just from my vague memory somewhere, but I believe the probability that a seedling from Meyer will taste just as good as the parent it came from is only about 1 in 4.

Meanwhile, Ponderosa lemon is a direct hybrid between two very different things, so it may be possible the seedlings could turn out very different than the parent. Again, we are not talking about an "ordinary" lemon variety here.

It's going to take a lot longer for the tree to begin producing fruit if it is not grafted onto rootstock.

No they don't and anyone saying they do us ignorant of their origin and reproduction.

Some citrus varieties (especially wild species) do tend to grow (mostly) true to seed. However, direct hybrids tend to have much more variability. I think both Meyer and Ponderosa lemons are in the direct hybrid category.

You should also remember that if the blossom of your citrus was pollinated by a different citrus variety, before that blossom turned into a fruit, then the seeds from that fruit will (or can) turn out to be a plant that half takes after the parent from whom the pollen came from.

However, many citrus varieties tend to produce a majority of what are called nucellar seed, which means the seed are genetic clones of the fruit parent (exactly the same DNA).

For ponderosa lemon, you can probably expect somewhere around 70 to 80 percent of the seeds to be nucellar, while for Meyer lemon it is likely very low, less than 10 percent.

Keep in mind, however, that growth habit will be determined by rootstock. If you grow from seed, then typically the tree will be growing on its own roots, will end up eventually growing very huge - bigger than you want it to be, and will take more years before it begins producing fruit.

Meyer lemons do NOT come true from seed., not ever. To obtain a true Meyer from your plant you will need to graft a cutting from the tree.