Excellent information! Thanks!

Ken, do you use superphosphate when you plant/transplant?

NEVER>> EVER>> ADD ANYTHING TO THE PLANTING HOLE .... even in my mineral sand ...

UNLESS A SOIL TEST INDICATES something is lacking ... and i would not rely on local hearsay for suggestions.. been there.. done that.. paid the price ...

trees love sand ... i suspect its all about drainage ... and if you look about any open space.. you will come to the conclusion that trees can FIND what they need without any help from us ... including our inclination to FEED OUR BABIES ... save your money for more plants ...

severe clay would be the only exception ... but i will not discuss that here.. since it has been covered elsewhere so many time that i want to puke.. lol ... like some old posted titled something like.. HOW TO PLANT IN CLAY SOIL ...

anyway ... have a great day

ken

i found my old post .. check out the link for thoughts regarding clay ..

ken

Here is a link that might be useful: link

bumping up this post .. before it disappears into GW eternity ...

ken

Ken, why do you flood the planting hole? Wouldn't that compress the soil and disrupt the texture? Perhaps its fine with sand. Sorry if I missed it in your post.

People will probably shake a finger at me but I just take a drain spade shovel and angle in around the rootball. I don't have time to remove all that soil surrounding the rootball. That only comes in handy if you are moving a very large rootball (IME and IMO). It must work as I've yet to lose one of my own transplants.

I'm just playing devil's advocate since you bumped this for newbies.

hey will ...

i said.. somewhere above:

"in my sand.. i am a stomper .... prior to water ... you can NOT over-compact mineral sand ... my plants do not fall over... nor are they staked unless over 4 feet or so.. and i dont really move things of that size ....

i would NOT do that after water.. or i would make cement ... "

===>>> i flood the hole [3 times actually].. IN MY SAND ... because it will drain away within minutes.. leaving a perfectly damp soil [and that includes not just the disturbed soil around the planting.. but also the soil around the actual hole dug] ... that will not need to be watered again ... presuming good mulch.. until the real heat of summer hits in later july ...

you HAVE TO KNOW.. how water moves thru the soil in your garden ... and the only way to do that.. would be to dig some holes.. for no other reason.. than to fill them with water.. and watch and time.. how long it takes to drain ...

we can spend hours speculating about a 3rd party soil.. but until you do it yourself ... in your garden.. in your soil... who knows how it all works ... but the equation.. in my mind ends up that water management and aftercare [proper watering] .. is 95% of the battle to success ... root issues being the other 5% ...

ken

better bump this one up.. before it falls into obscurity ..

ken

I just like looking at that soil.

So strange to me. All we have around me is hard, red clay. If you dig a "hole" it becomes clay pot! Nice shallow saucers work. Anyway. Nice dirt!!!

I've been looking at that soil, too! Definitely different from our soil - on our 12 acre property, we've got 6 different soil types, varying from poorly drained clay loam to well-drained silty clay loam, to chocolate-colored bottomland silt. All loam around here, I haven't seen too much heavy clay except where there's been excavation or construction. I live in the Tipton Till Plain, where Miami-Crosby-Brookston soils dominate. Apparently, Miami soils are some of the most productive soils in North America - Unfortunately, we don't have much Miami soil on our property! What little there is grows excellent conifers, though - my best looking Fraser fir is on a slight North slope in Miami silt loam.

time to bump this up ...

ken

Why did not I see this thread one month ago. I planted 12 emerald green arb. Those arbs come with a clay rootball and my soil is sandy. I immerge the rootball in a bucket of water before I plant it. But now some of them are browning - not a very good sign. Also, they were planted on my property line with a little slope to the street, so when I water, most water will drain to the street, how should I make the soil surface around the tree so that the tree get the most of water?

Thanks
Greendale

This post was edited by greendale on Tue, Oct 22, 13 at 9:57

Take a screwdriver (or something like that) and aerator the clayball. Go slowly. If you encounter resistance its likely a larger root. Move an an inch and try again.

Water will fill the holes and penetrate the ball. Its one of the only ways with a dry clay rootball.

If you're seeing browning in the interior and the ends/exterior are still green that is normal in the fall for arbs and pines. They shed interior needles this time of year.

If its the exterior perhaps too much water? They like well drained soil just as much as pines and firs. How long did you soak the rootball?

greendale.. welcome ...

first.. glad you found us ...

second .... start your own post.. and add a few pix.. words arent good enough to really help you ... as whaas noted... interior yellowing/browning is NORMAL... and increased by transplant ...

third.. ALL BB plants are grown in clay ... its the only stuff that allows formation of the ball ...

4th ... you need to make the moats, as clearly??? indicated in my pix and teh attendant replies ... [you build up the down slope side until it is as high as the upslope side] ...... so you can hold the water in place.. well it soaks in ... sometimes in drought.. i will put the hose on a trickle for hours.. to get it to soak into my sand ... and the moat will hold it there ...

5th ... take a hand trowel.. and dig some 3 to 6 inch holes near the edges of the root mass you planted ...... and find out what is going on in there ... we can not really tell you what do do.. or how to deal with .... YOUR SOIL .... unless you give us some real hard facts ... every soil is different.. you need to learn how it all works in YOUR SOIL ... note key words there ....

i will be looking for your new post ... and some pix ...

ken

I guess I should wait till next spring to plant any conifers. Do we do the same watering thing when planting conifers from store pots?

Ken: You seem to have omitted the "Driveway Treatment" in this post. lol.

i only throw hosta on the driveway ...

not trees and conifers ...

tonk ... study the link ... it should be basically the same info ...

this post is most important.. in regard to planting level.. on a hill ... so that water has a chance to soak in ....

in my sand.. potted stock in a high peat media ... can be a problem... as .. by august.. the sand can wick all moisture out of the peaty media .... and dry so completely.. it might never rewet ...

and that is why.. many of us.. completely bare root ALL stock ... besides looking for bad root systems ....

but you may not need to completely bare root things.. IF!!!! ... you have soil better than mineral sand ...

the sand is supreme as to drainage ... as compared to a clay soil which does not drain ... all is covered at the link ...

ken

Here is a link that might be useful: link

Never ever flood a planting hole as shown once you've put the soil back. You severely disrupt the soil structure and will make a concrete like mix, especially clay soils.

Only very sandy soils will accomodate this and even then you're still disrupting the soil structure. You're basically siving the soil based on buoyancy of the various soil parts.

Ken, you did a perfect job.
I moved a 5 ft 'Hoopsie' a month ago. That no longer got enough light under a Korean dogwood. Digging around I found a long sidewards tap root which I had to cut. It was very heavy, could not put burlap around the roots, but moved a tarp and a plastic sled under it and pulled it over the street to my neighbor who planted it. He waters it every week, also put a burlap screen around it, so hopefully it will survive. Bernd

time to take a look at this one again

ken

When back filling a hole, I cave in the sides with my shovel rather than try to fill the cracks with soil. Then I push down sideways toward the rootball with my boot and then water it good. Then I fill in the small depression around the plant with mulch. The goal is to establish capillary action between the soil and root ball.
My soil varies a lot on a hilly ten acres but I prepare the soil by adding organic matter as deep as I can with my tiller, sometimes several years in advance and continually. The more water the soil holds, the more I contour it. I treat my whole place as a compost pile on a slope and if I need to water anything, it's always on the up slope side. I even put a top dressing of woodchips on my ground covers whenever I can.
Here's 'Honda The Tiller' with it's newly installed Klingon Cloaking Device. It isn't working 100% yet, but I've always had trouble with alien technology.
Mike...watching it rain all day.
{{gwi:642017}}

Mike, are you describing a moat in the post above? It has me interested but can't say I interpreted it correctly.

Will...watching my conifers burn in the winter sun, lol.

Well, it looks like a shallow moat, but the ground is so porous with organic matter, it doesn't hold water for very long. I don't have to deal with much clay and I amend almost all the soil I plant in. With a rototiller and all the woodchips I can handle for over twenty years, it's not much of a problem as long as I can push a wheelbarrow.
Mike

It has been 4 years since this thread started.

Hey Ken, would it be possible to see how that little tree you posted the pic of is doing now?

Thanks!

deleted

This post was edited by DonK69 on Wed, May 14, 14 at 17:39

i still havent made it out there .. to get a new pic .... its about 6 foot now

ken

ken,I see you are sticking with GW/houzz ,,,me too

good original post,but you didn't show the lift from hole to garbage c. l.

that's when root ball falls apart,,,,,sometimes,I just wrap a wratchet/tie down strap around

talk to ya,ron

Thanks Ken, Of the two conifers I'm moving this spring, one is quite small yet, so I can do it myself - its moving from my garden to my sister's (a birthday gift). The other is going to require some help, but is not going far - just 6 feet or so. I assume you put the plant in the burlap and then move the plant into the garbage can lid thereby minimizing the chance of the root ball falling apart. I don't have burlap but I have old cotton sheets that I could use to hold the root ball together. I assume you cut the burlap and remove it. Or do you try to slide it out? Old sheets can be cut.

Plantkiller, I'm not sure I understand the wratchet/tie down tip you gave. Would twine suffice?

bev , twine probably works better than anything at tying wrapped root ball,,just a little time consuming,,,but worth it for big plant.

ken didn't show ball tied up,,has to do with stiffness of soil/rootball

try to cut away as much sheet as possible

I wrap strap around ball,,use wratchet to tighten whole thing up,,works for quick move

for epic transplant, see link

moving 16 ft norway

ron

bumping this up

ken

I don't have burlap but I have old cotton sheets that I could use to
hold the root ball together. I assume you cut the burlap and remove it.
Or do you try to slide it out? Old sheets can be cut.

==>>> in the pix.. way above... i just tied the 4 corners of the burlap around the trunk .... not much more was needed for the 400 foot trip to the new hole ...

and what i didnt show you .... that gorgeous sand you all envied.... by the time it got there... it was bare root... as all the sand shook off .... from the tractor ride ....

basically ... the whole pictorial is a ruse.. to show you how to do it.. with soil that would actually hold together.. lol ...

ken

One salient point Ken made, way back when, which is absolutely correct,is that tamping or "stomping" the soil, if that soil is mostly sand, is perfectly fine. But for gawd's sake, don't transpose that method to a clayey soil! Clay compacts readily, sand does not. That's the difference. Like the ancient Greek philosophers admonished, "know thy soil"...or something like that.

+oM

Problem I always have when planting bare root is when I dig a sufficiently large hole, put the plant in it, and try to refill it, there is never enough dirt. The first couple inches are sod and much of what I removed from the hole is rocks. I pretty much have to add something from somewhere else.

I typically plant things in places that show...and I don't want to leave a bunch of holes there. So I've taken to leaving a bunch of holes in one corner of the yard, and lugging buckets of dirt...

The sod at the bottom is a good idea.

Agree-there never is enough soil!

In the classic hand-dug balled and burlapped tree, there used to be a whole series of knots and cinches used to tighten up that ball. And again, most of this has disappeared from our collective consciousness. plus, there is so much more spade-dug stuff today, and of course, that's all about tightening the wire.

+oM

again.. back in suburbia ....

i stole soil from the veg patch .... and when it got to low.. i bought a yard or two of good topsoil ... for the veg patch ... rather than using the pile to amend the planting hole ..

the veg garden got rototilled every spring.... so it was close enough to local/native soil for the tree .. besides the fact.. that i shopped around the various sellers ... to find a somewhat near soil ...

here in sand land... below is where i got the sand from .. lol ... when i moved here.. this spot was bare.. from the horses rolling on the sand .... the hole part was from various projects of mine.... like backfilling a landscape wall ... and a cement patio .... etc .... [the kids.. have been down 3 to 4 feet... its just all the same sand ... i often wondered about that glacier ....]

you dont want a hole like this in your lawn ed?? ..... lol ...

ken

It still boggles the mind to picture a sheet of ice surpassing a mile in thickness. and not once, not twice, but repeatedly.

+oM

no doubt ... and to think it melted due to global warming ... and then it cooled.. and then it warmed ... as you say.. repeatedly ... go figure

ken

time for a bump?

since its technically near fall transplant season.. what the heck.. bump again ... ken

Thank you for bumping, and for sharing. It's always great to see photos of the process.

the pix are in an old photobucket acct ... but i found them on my hard drive .... below is the moat one .... it about the size of the garbage can lid behind.. for scale ....

i will have to figure out how to recreate the post ... and skip photobucket ...

ken

omg.. the pix are back ... yippee.. ken

Just in time for my planting project.. and I have a question about the risks of planting a small norway spruce on a mound where the ground is wet.. Fool's errand?

not at all kit ... but a few more facts might get you a better answer ..

how wet.. how long into season ... how big a berm .. etc ...

i think berm sums it up.. you see them everywhere ...

the key is.. roots need air as much as water ... and by raising the planting.. you give the transplant time to get over transplant stresses.. and put it roots where it can cope with the surrounding issues ....

and.. if you are talking about a week or two of seasonal water.. i bet the tree can get over it ..

ken

a few of the old pix .. i dont have the patience to turn them ...ken

this is what it looks like.. to trickle water under a plant .... ken

bump

time for a bump.. pic were re-inserted not far above