Pat, I have used bark mulch in addition to hardwood mulch, grass clippings, compost, shredded leaves---you name it and never seen any association with the type of mulch used and wilt. I would be curious to know where you read this.

There are two camps of opinion as to what really causes wilt---a fungus or a vascular cause brought about by too much top growth vs. root growth so the plant wilts some or all of its top growth back to allow the roots to catch up. Unless you are a believer that a fungus causes wilt and that the causative fungus likes living in certain types of bark mulch, I would take the info with a grain of salt. Realize also that two things can be associated with each other but have no cause and effect relationship with each other.

I knew someone would ask me where I read it! I'm trying to remember. I googled all the key words to see if the same thing would pop back up again, but no luck. If I come across it, I'll post it. In the interim, I'm going with the grain of salt mode and mulching with shredded bark mulch.

Thanks.

Butterclem..you aren't crazy..there are many sites that have that theory as the reason for clematis wilt...I always mulch my clematis BUT use to pull it away from the vine but through the years quit worrying about that..If clematis get fungal diseases..then why don't the pruning group 3's suffer wilt as the pruning group 2's do??..I am of the school of thought that "The rootsystem isn't mature enough to handle the top growth"..that is why hardpruning in the first few years is neccessary so you allow the rootsystem to mature to let them go wild and grow later on.. this is always an interesting subject but that is my accessment from growing clematis in my gardens...I also don't suffer mildew on my clematis either..but have had wilt on a couple and they usually come back bigger and better...Jeanne

Here is a link that might be useful: Mulch + Clematis wilt

Thanks for the link, Jeanne, and for the reassurance about my sanity. So I'm going to keep on mulching! I do pull the mulch away from the vines, but was interested to hear you no longer feel that's necessary. I put mushroom manure on my perennials after the first hard frost and try to keep it away from the stems, but it's too big a job for 100% perfection -- for me anyhow. I'm sure some of them are surrounded. And they always live.

Pat

Jeanne, if you look at the first page of articles that your search pulled up there is only one that actually says anything about mulch causing wilt. What you have to remember is that any search where you search for more than one thing and you search with an "and" modifier will get you results only where the two terms show up. Most of the articles in your search talk about wilt and using mulch to aid in clematis growth, not that one causes the other.

Regarding mulching right up to the crown of the plant, I have done that with my clematis also and never had an issue. For some people however, if they have mice, chipmunks or similar creatures in their gardens, mulching up to the crown can provide nesting places for the critters and they can sometimes gnaw on the stems and cause die back.

Miguel..LOL..I just wanted ONE article to say it so she'd know she hadn't lost all her marbles...Lord knows there are times I've read something and couldn't find it to save my soul..I can't believe all the clematis I've gotta get in the ground and my dang gardenguys haven't removed the grass for my new beds yet..sheshhh..it's hard to get dependable people anymore....hugz to yall...Jeanne

10-4 Jeanne. The internet can be a wonderful thing but it can also lead to mass confusion with all the contradictory advice you can find about anything and everything.

I would be very interested in knowing where Southern Living got their info since I don't have one clematis book, and you know I have way too many, that shows any relationship between mulch of any type and clematis wilt. I am willing to bet that the writer at Southern Living still holds steadfast to the belief that clematis wilt is caused by a fungus and perhaps think that mulch will retain the fungus in the ground. I know that the link you provided had one article after another that gave differing views on mulch with some saying keep it as much as 8 inches away from the stems to others saying that covering the ground with mulch would help prevent the fungal spores that supposedly cause wilt from being splashed up on the vines and causing the disease. I say mulch away and don't worry about it with the one caveat I mentioned above. Those people that have issues with any type of rodents should probably keep the mulch away from the stems of any plant since it can be a wonderful nesting site for the critters!

Be happy that your gardening conditions are such that you can still plant things. The drought around here is worsening and the smaller clematis I got are potted up for the fall and winter. The ponds and lakes are drying up and I heard from a friend that some major southern cities have 100 or so days of water left before their resources will be dried up. I haven't a clue how the major cities will handle not having a water source and how one could ever ship in enough to accomodate the people living in the larger cities.

I am VERY grateful I can still plant. Pittsburgh's three rivers provide some protection, but we were just a hair away from a rare declared shortage when cooler weather, and a little precipitation, came. I know the situation is scary in some parts of the country.

Pat

It's strange how it can be feast or famine when it comes to rain..we've had an abundance of rain this year and Houston even had areas that have flooded again and again ( I think alot of that is caused from developers moving the ground around and messing up the normal flow of things!) I know when my neighbor up the hill from me built their new house..my neighbors house now floods..fortunately I am quite a bit higher than him..the flow use to run into my backgarden and over to his but since I put up my raised flowerbeds..they impede the flow and have helped (To think he biatched when I was doing all my gardening) It's been in the upper 60's at night and low to mid 80's ..so I'm in heaven..got tons of things still blooming..you should see my clematis ...all the ones that had 'browned-out' from summer have rebounded with a vengence and putting on tons of new leaves and blooming..it I didn't know any better I'd think it was Spring all over again..I will pray for rain for those that need it...would a rainy fall/winter help?..that is usually what I have here..that is why fall planting works so great for me to get my clematis established....Hugzzz Jeanne

Feast or famine seems to be the way it is Jeanne. October is generally a dry month in my neck of the woods with an average of 3 inches max. So far the official rainfall amount is 0.04 inches this month with over 14 inches deficit for the year. My town gets its water from the Yadkin River which is lower than normal but still supplying enough water that we can sell water to neighboring towns that are not as fortunate. Weather here has been wonderful temperature wise with nights in the 40s and days anywhere from the mid 60s to high 70s-my type of weather!! Unfortunaltely no rain and no real relief in the forecast. The weather forecasters are also saying that we have an El Nina in place which mean a warmer and drier winter than normal.

The clematis here that browned out mid to late summer are putting out new growth also due to the cooler weather and watering I have given them. I honestly think that them remaining dormant would be better. I have my fingers crossed for rain or a tropical storm (which by the way the weather forecasters or guessers said we would have a more active tropical seasaon this year and last and they missed that forecast big time!). Time will tell what will transpire.

There seems to be alot of activity in the oceans south of me and should hit Mexico and they are predicting it will then move up North and slide east..so I am hoping what comes to me will eventually come to you guys and give you much needed rain..hey that nekkid rain dance might be needed for yall..so everyone get nekkid and start dancin'..LOL...Jeanne

So Jeanne and Miguel, are you saying that you cut your clematis back when they brown out? How far, clear to the ground or what? It was so hot here this summer, and no rain, that most of mine browned out. I was about to give up growing them for that reason.

NO...I don't cut mine back when they brown out..especially my pruning group 2s as they are rejuvenated now with the rains and cooler weather and are growing more vines and leaves and blooming...remember theses are clematis that I hard pruned the first two years in my gardens tho...I hard prune them all the first couple of years...remember when pruning you want to prune above a leaf axil..I chose the third one from the soil...that is where the new leaves,vines will emerge..brown out doesn't mean the vine isn't viable...remember that...BUT, if they wilt..which is total collapse of the vine and it turns blackish..then I prune that baby even with the soil..I wouldn't be doing any pruning until late winter/early spring of '08...Jeanne

Flowergirl, normally I do cut my browned out clematis back by half at least. This summer however I have done so only on my HF Young and The President which have already come back and rebloomed. I didn't on others in the garden for two reasons. First I was wanting to collect seed on them and secondly, with the drought conditions, I wanted to do as little as possible to stimulate new growth when it is still bone dry. Quite a few of the browned out ones have put out new growth with the little watering I have done (once a week max with drip irrigation or soaker hoses).

In a normal summer, I cut back all the browned out ones by half at least and I get rebloom after providing them with additional fertilizer and enough water. I normally can't stand the browned out leaves--that is what lead me to doing so the first years I started doing it.

Hey Miguel..we had rain ALL DAY yesterday..and it's overcast today and most probably will get rain..I saw it moving off east and hoping it comes to YOU my friend..I know what you mean about brown-out being ugly and pruning by half..fortunately I have climbing roses with some and that helps to hide some of the ugliness..I've even stood that and scrunched the brown leaves off the vine..LOL..some are part green and part brown..what I don't get Miguel..is my Ramona is on a drip system..which comes on every other day..I assumed it would water it enough that they wouldn't brown-out but duh..it didn't and so I started hand watering it extra and it seemed to be happier but to be honest ..I started handwatering at the end of September..so I can't decide if that helped or it would have happened with my cooler temps arriving?...do you think that even if one does water enough that they brown-out just because it's the hottest part of the summer and no amount of water will stop that?..I know you've had a very dry season is most probably the culprit?..am I making any sense??..You should see "Ramona"..she is nearly to the top of my Pergola now..I am so thrilled..but I am actually having to tie up some vines to help direct them where I want them and so they don't just fall over and start growing down...it's an everyday job but I have a vision of what I want one day..the climbing rose I have with it is finally coming around as well!!..I just can't wait for next year to see them..it'll be like Christmas to me!!..I surely hope you get rain hon...hugzzzzz...Jeanne

Thanks Jeanne. I think we have a chance later in the week. I am keeping my fingers crossed and may just have to go out there and do that nekid rain dance to improve the odds!! LOL

As for whether your type IIs will still brown out even with extra watering, I know BorS has posted in the past that even hers will brown out in the PNW with extra watering and I am sure that the temps there probably don't normally get as high and go on for as long as they do in our zones so I am beginning to wonder how much moisture is really enough for them! It might also be an issue of the heat dessicating the leaves so fast that extra watering might not help. The cooler temps might be a bigger issue in the matter. I know I have tons of browned out clematis that are putting out new foliage now and they are getting no less water now than they were over the rest of the summer. Boy I could show you some really ugly pictures of my browned out Piilu and Proteus and one of the two has new growth with a bud on the end of one of the vines!!

Been there done that with the scrunching of the old brown leaves trying to remove them. I am sure your roses provide a nice cover for some of the brown leaves!!

So you all think heat and lack of enough water causes brownout? Why then has this all of a sudden started to be a problem here? I have grown clematis here the last 40 years, and brownout has only become a problem in the last 3 or 4 years. It can get very hot and dry here, I remember shortly after we moved here, it was over 100 for 17 days straight. I'm wondering why some brownout and others don't? I have 5 on a fence facing west at the end of my vege garden, no brownout, but they are looking tired and worn out. There are 3 on an 8 ft trellis, 3 years old, vitacellas, 2 are normal, one totally browned out. I could go on around my yard. Some are totally browned out and some look great. They all get the same care. According to my water bill nothing has lacked for water here. We haven't had rationing, because this is a packing house town and the Hispanic people don't water much. I just wish there was something I could do for these plants so they didn't look so bad.

I have to go on a two week business trip every August and every time, I come home to Clematis that are browned out. I do cut them back. DH does turn on the soaker hoses but doesn't hand water as thoroughly as I do. We have less than 10 days over 80* a year.

I think some are more susceptable to Brown out than others..my viticellas don't brown but several of my Pruning group 2's do....Jeanne
ps..I see those rains heading up north west...yahoo

Jeanne, I am keeping my fingers crossed. A 60% chance of rain here on Thursday night and Friday. I don't care if we have severe weather as long as it rains!!!!!!!

My experience most years mirrors Jeannes. The type IIs always brown out, most of the type IIIs don't. However this year even some of the the viticellas have browned out but with the abnormally hot and dry weather this year, I am not surprised that even they did. If you figure out what the secret combination of factors is flowergirl, then you could write a book and become the authority on how not to have brown out occur. I can't fathom a reason why the issue would be something that has just recently started occurring for you.

Believe me, I'm no authority on anything, I just wish I could figure this out. When there is no rhyme or reason to what browns out and what doesn't it's hard. My daughter lives in Wyo. and doesn't know what brownout is. She nearly fainted when she saw my clems this summer. I planted 4 new ones this year and no brownout on any of those. One thing I do know, it was not lack of water this year.

Butterclem..I sure hope you can forgive us for hijacking your thread hon..
Is it raining yet Miguel??..I see some areas even getting tornados...I hope everyone a wonderful safe rain...
Flowergirl..all your rain this season was the reason they didn't brown out and you are in a milder climate??...Jeanne

No rain yet Jeanne. Still waiting. The sun is out and muggy though! Perhaps that will help stir the atmosphere and allow rain later tonight and tomorrow.

I've enjoyed the hijacking! Learned a bit about brownouts. I've just felt guilty. We've had a drier summer than usual, but it wasn't a big problem, and, as I write, it's sprinkling gently outside on the last of the clematises I got into the ground yesterday. But I'm willing to get nekked for a global, virtual dance that would help the rest of you with rain.

"But I'm willing to get nekked for a global, virtual dance that would help the rest of you with rain."
HERE!! HERE !! Girl..let's set a time, syncronize our watches and unite from all over and get nekkid and do the rain dance at the same time....tee hee..anything to get our clemmies a drink!!...tee hee
utoh..should we also select a designated bondmen incase our neighbors call the police on us??

Too funny Jean!

According to Steven Colbert, I live in hippie communist territory. I bet my neighbors would join in if they saw someone doing a nekkid rain dance. ;0P

Of course, given how hard it's pouring here right now, they might just put me in a straightjacket without asking any questions.