cant you make up the difference with tight binding

in other words... you might be seeking unnecessary perfection

i thought that was one of the points of making it so thin towards the bottom

good luck

ken

Yes, sometimes tight wrapping with my grafting bands can join some of it together. But most of the time even with tight wrapping with thin grafting bands, there will still be a hair thing gap where you can see light through it. I worry these air gaps will dry the scion out. You could go to extremes and use heavy gauge rubber bands to force them together, but that would crush the cambium and other cells in the scions, and rootstock.

>"in other words... you might be seeking unnecessary perfection"I hope that would be true, but I have a feeling they will not take, or join when it is said and done because of the small air gaps.

if it is precisely as the pic suggests... and your binding is so loose that you cant bridge the gap... then i would suggest.. it isnt tight enough...

it seems that you are more concerned about crushage.. than binding...

i understand its a fine line..

but they are juniper.. they root.. very forgiving ...grafting shouldn't be but practice for the trickier stuff.. do it both ways.. take notes.. make records and see if it matters... just make contact ..

and report back.. so we all can learn, what you learn

and do wait for the real pro's.. i hope they dont make a fool of me...lol

ken

What Kens says seems about right.

A little pressure from the bands should help, although I wouldn't worry about getting it perfect.

I've found that it can be more difficult to get a flatter cut with junipers. On the other hand, I've also had good luck with grafting junipers regardless of that.

Last year I started using Doc Farwell's grafting seal, which I believe helps keep the union hydrated during the knitting process. The humidity chamber will help with this too.

With practice, your cuts will get flatter. But you should also get takes without having perfectly flat cuts.

Good luck!

The gaps maybe slightly exaggerated in the above pic, but in reality it's probably no less than half of the gap widths in the above pic (this is after wrapping in the grafting bands). I know others that graft conifers use this same band thickness, so it must be either proper technique in how to make flatter cuts, or I'm just worrying over something that won't effect the grafting success percentages.

Some types of Juniper can be rooted fairly easy, but other are almost impossible (Juniperus virginiana is one of these almost impossible ones, especially older trees).
This one I'm grafting is a special and older Juniprus virginia that I found, it looks just like a Juniperus scopulorum 'Tolleson's Weeping' in form except the foliage is more fine, so it looks more graceful.

If I get it to graft (about 3rd year in trying to propagate it) I will post a picture on here showing it and the successful grafts. But my hopes are dwindling on propagating it.

Are you sharpening both sides of the blade on your knife?

When I first got the knife it just had a dull factory edge and a micro bevel (would not cut one hair), so I got some DMT diamond hones, water stones, and a leather paddle strop (with chromium oxide). I tested the flatness of the flat side of the knife with the finest diamond grit, and surprisingly the knife was not perfectly flat (kind of a little uneven wave in the middle) so I honed and got it perfectly flat (+or- .001") the other side (curved) with another micro bevel, I created a good new and larger angle bevel, so it can cut thin clean slices in the wood now.

How my knife was before and after:
{{gwi:653307}}

Thanks Ken and sluice.

Sluice, That would seem right about it being harder to cut (not surprising since I've read before that Junipers have really hard wood).

Sluice (or other grafters), I have some questions:

1. Does bottom heat to the pot help, or does it hurt. (I have a mini green house about 40" X 20" X 66" tall, and I think bottom heat would make the inside too warm, since about 50F is best right?. Bottom heat might make it 75F to 80F inside.

2. What is the lowest the humidity can be in the greenhouse and the highest in your option that will keep the scions in best health? (I've heard different things in the past). It's been between 70% and 90% using my evaporative humidifier (but usually it's around 75%)

3. I collected scion wood from the weeping Juniperus virginiana on February 4th (it had some pollen cones swelling up, almost ready to release), was this too late for scion wood, or do you think they might still graft ok?
If it was too late, would keeping a few scions in a jar of water (to keep them alive) and doing approach graft technique be successful in your option?

4.What if you can only line up one side of the scion with rootstock cambium (how all of mine are doing), and there is a big gap on the opposite side (1/3 of cut on one side of rootstock exposed after joining scion), Can that gap lead to drying of the scion, or does the humid air and or wrap prevent that?

5. I have some parafilm, thin and thick grafting rubber bands, and a little Trowbridge's grafting wax possibly (very messy/sticky stuff). What is the best way to to prevent scions from drying out as fast after wrapping the graft with the things I have, and then putting them in my mini humid greenhouse? Rubber only, parafilm + rubber, or just parafilm etc.)

Any answers would be helpfull, thanks.

For question #4 above , this is what I was talking about in the picture below I drew:

That air gap would extend all the way up and down along side the wedge on the scion (even if you pull it tight like in the bellow #2 picture with a rubber band):

{{gwi:653308}}

there should be no air gap ....

gee called the cut a cathedral window... on the understock ...

and it should match precisely the cut on the scion ... so that you have the max cambian overlay all around ...

the air gap indicates to me.. that you have no cambian connection on the short side ...

or am i misunderstanding your drawing..

surprised dax doesnt have a video on this????

ken

Use veneer technique,it is easier.
Here is a link that might be useful:Veneer graft

Do whatever it takes to get the scion in direct contact while lining up one side on the understock. I often find myself using my inner forearm to bend the understock in a "C" shape and at the same time I'm pressing on the scion at the same time watching with my (eyes) as I wrap so no gap ever occurs. It's something you teach yourself, a lot of common sense that says to yourself: 'I have to get this done right and how is that going to happen?' You "will it" to happen.

As for cuts on the understock, it's almost rare to have a cut the exact width as the prepared width on the scion. So to your question, yes it fine to just line up one side. 99% of the time as you wrap, you're coming around the back side of the understock and going over the scions + flap but then as you are about to continue to the back side of the understock you need to put more "crank" on the bud strip... this will 99% of the time close the gap on the opposing side. The other 1% of the time where it may not completely unite/join the flap and understock on the opposing side is because the scions you're grafting are large/thick. That's still OK. Just have one side lined up.

To reiterate, you don't want gaps between the scion and understock and flap. Gaps elsewhere are ok.

Lastly, I'd recommend that you use parafilm tape on all grafts that aren't perfect.

And one more thing, when you make your cut into the understock, watch carefully as you draw the knife down so to make a perfectly "vertical" "straight line" on one side at least. Look at the scion too and determine from the width of the scion the width of the understock cut that will be make. Then, carefully look at the understock from all sides and look for an area on the understock that will allow for a "natural" cut at "proper width" without needing to manipulate the knife. These are all things that you "learn." Now for me, it's second nature. After 5-6 years, I see in advance what's going to work before I ever pick up the knife... then, I cut, and by God, it's always there.

Give yourself time. I stress to people over and over again the importance of taking your time. It doesn't matter if you're taking a long time as you suggest to match up a graft. If you don't take your time, you're just losing in the long run. Sometimes I spend 15 minutes on one graft - otherwise I probably am done in 1 minute or slightly more. But I always take my time.

Good luck to you.

Dax

Thanks very much Dax for that advise, if I get this juniper to graft I will be super elated.

Dax, I want you honest opinion on what percentage would you give these two grafts I just did in being successful?

This time I was a little more calm and tried to be as precise to make the cuts match up. I think I got both sides of the cambium area of the rootstalk and scion to line up (or if not, very close to being lined some on both sides).
I think graft #1 lined up best on both sides.

You can see the flap well in #1 graft (side view) below, and as I continued the wrapping downward, the flap seemed to close well and flat with the scion.

Both these grafts will be kept in the humid chamber with 90% humidity and temperatures around 50F to 60F, and with bright indirect light.

Graft #1:
{{gwi:653309}}

Graft #2:
{{gwi:653311}}

#1 The end of your scion cut looks to be square. That's not good if it is. Either you make your scions come to a point (I rarely do that) or you make a wedge cut. A wedge cut is where you do both cuts on the scion and then on the front side you make an angled cut which fits into the understock snugly because as you finish your cut into the understock you turn your knife in toward the pith and make a wedge there also.

Here is what I have for you:

{{gwi:653313}}

Dax

Thanks for that.
I've seen your videos, and I also have the Coenosium gardens grafting video, they are all great.

What you see is actually just a color variation on the scion bark that makes it look flat, it really is a small wedge cut. I outlined it here in this picture below:

Dax, I've seen you post tons of pictures of your many successful grafts, and in your video you said 100% can be obtained if you do it well. What would be your honest opinion for what percentage you give these two grafts I just did in being successful and growing on to live? I just want a more professorial opinion on my "grafting grade". Thanks very much.
{{gwi:653314}}

Your grafts are perfect. With the three elements that you must control: light, temperature, & humidity, 100% is no problem at all.

If I were grafting scions not being shipped to me but rather I went and cut my own on a nice warm day, especially following a string of warm days prior, I could get 100% takes.

Last year, I had 85% takes. Some scions were two weeks old when I grafted them, even three weeks on others which is the limit. Now at three weeks you're already 50/50 or less.

Furthermore, when certain cultivars started dying and since I had shared or someone shared with me those very same scions and from the same source, I emailed to ask how those cultivars were doing for them & sure enough, at exactly the same time, theirs died as well, within a week. Can't get much better of a gauge than just that.

Dax

#2 Graft:

I see your flap is not lined up perfectly on the left side but rather the left side of the scion is partially exposed. You should have pushed the scion to the right and then lined up the scion to the understock, first, and then drew the flap up and lining it up over the wounded scion so it was a straight line. Your flap looks funky, do you see what I'm saying? Your flap is crooked.

It's 100% ok to have a less width understock than your scion but you still need one side lined up perfectly. fyi.

I was having difficulty seeing #2 - so I decided to look again.

Dax

That's a relief that you said the grafts are perfect, and I believe the light, temperature, & humidity is all correct.

There is just a couple of other things that are bothering me: Possible future fungus problems, and wrong scion collection time.
I got the scions on Feb. 4th, and some of the pollen cones were swelling up large on the parent tree, probably just starting to break dormancy a little bit.

The rootstocks were out of dormancy with white new roots and a tiny top growth, I just hope the rootstocks are more advanced in sap activity than the scions.

I have some Physan 20 fungicide I can use. Do you ever spray the scion and rootstock before grafting? And how often do you spray them after grafting (every 2 weeks after grafting?).

>"If I were grafting scions not being shipped to me but rather I went and cut my own on a nice warm day, especially following a string of warm days prior, I could get 100% takes."What day of the year is best for you in collecting scions, and then grafting them on the same day? (I assume it's later than it would be here since your in IL).

To answer about the #2 graft, yeah I knew how it was not lined up perfect. This one was hard because there was hump in the rootstock, so I had to join it at angle. I at least lined up the flap from the center to to top I believe (It may have even lined up on the back side on the top left of the scion, but I can't remember, that maybe the reason why I decided not to push the bottom of the scion in more with my thumbnail, I didn't want to crush the bottom either). I'll have to wait and see on this one if it takes or not, it might not since only about 25% of possible cambium contact lined up on the top left on the back and front of the scion.

But the #1 graft lined up pretty much perfect. Probably around 75% to 90%+ of possible cambium contact was achieved (best one by far out of about 9 grafts so far).

{{gwi:653315}}

#2 probably won't take. I never leave anything on one side exposed. It might though. You'll just have to wait and hope mother nature who isn't perfect, finished the job for you.

Fungicides:
After all the understocks have been prepared spray them.

When the understocks begin pushing spray them.

When the scions begin pushing spray them.

then, watch for "white cotton balls" / fungus. If you see any, spray those plants / spot spray - as needed.

watch hard pines when they begin growing for pine sawfly. spray as needed / insecticide.

-

Scion collecting:
Any days during winter that are above freezing and if I can get 3 days in a row of above freezing, I wait till the third day. This is anytime from the time the understocks are ready until March.1 here. If I am grafting after March 1., my results go down because the understocks are pushing less sap, and more-so because the greenhouse is simply too hot during the days.

About your scions that were coming off a tree already with pollen cones - not good. You need dormant scions. It still is possible that some may knit though. A scion can knit in 7-10 days. You'll just have to hope. Dormancy is a big part.

Later on dude,

Dax

Thanks very much, it stinks about the dormancy part, but maybe one or two will take. And hopefully a few of the scions I have in a jar of water with a little fungicide will have a even better chance of taking (using approach grafting) since they will have a longer time to heal while being alive in the jar. I'll be elated if just one graft heals, since I think the parent tree is incredible looking.
And if at least one heals and starts growing I'll definitely post some pictures of it on the forum.

Thanks again for all the help.

Treeguy,

You might want to try and make your cuts holding your knife differently to get those nice flat cuts you are after. The way i cut, the blade is never heading towards my thumb, unless I am dealing with a tiny piece of scion, and have little clear material to work with (and am working very slow). I grip my knife firmly in my fist, and in one quick motion while holding the scion firm in the other hand I yank the blade through. The way the blade is locked in my fist, my fingers are never at risk from the quick motion. Since the back of your blade is perfectly flat this should contribute to a nice flat cut. The speed and strenght of this quick pull improves the quality. It is similar to working with a hand plane in wood working. If you go at it slow you get marginal results, but if you go ahead and get some momentum you get the results you are after. I learned my cutting technique from a guy that grafted over 10,000 Japanese maples in a season. Maple scions are very stiff and hard compared to conifers with very little ability to be smashed down with a budding strip. You need to get the cut flat for success. I have not grafted junipers before. Perhaps they are hard as well, and causing some of your problems. Pines and firs might be an easier place to start, and allow for more of a fudge factor while you are practicing. good luck.

Thanks.
I usually hold the scion in my left hand with my four fingers together underneath, and my thumb on top. And with my right I hold the knife. I've been going slowly when cutting because the knife seems to curve inward when I cut (that might be because one side is beveled and the other is flat which makes it curve inward). So I've been going slowly when cutting so I can make tiny angle adjustments as I cut, that way I could make the length of the cut long enough (not cut too much off).

I'll try some quicker cuts and see how it does.

Oh yeah, in the Janka hardness tests you can see Juniper trees do have hard wood, close to maple:

Maple: 1200 - 1500
Oak: 1300
Juniper: 900 - 1200

Pine: 400 - 870
Fir: 400 - 650

Interesting info on the Juniper wood, thanks! Did the chart include spruce?

It has Black Spruce at 422 Janka (lb).

Here is the link:
http://ejmas.com/tin/2009tin/tinart_goldstein_0904.html

thanks