Is that what you all do when first putting Pines into the ground?

===>>>>

no.. nada.. never.. ever... [except heavy clay] ...

if he didnt have the bag to sell.. he would NOT recommend it ..

snakeoil salesman.. period ...

now.. whats your soil

and why are you thinking that JULY [yes.. its the heat of summer] is the best time to plant any tree or conifer ...

yes.. i buy stuff all season ... in fact.. got a half dozen conifers just today ... from starterdude ...

and i have great plans to plant them at the proper planting time in sept/oct... meanwhile they will stay in their pots.. in very bright shade ... until then ...

yes.. professionals.. who guarantee their work get away with things we might not .. like paying $20 wholesale for the plant he is charging you $100 .... and he will take risks..

novices fair much better.. if they do things at the right time of year ..

if per chance.. your seller is offering to freshly dig the plant.. ask him if you can TAG IT for delivery at the proper time to plant.. IN FALL ...

all that said.. remind me what your soil structure is ... stuff changes in clay ...

ken

Hey Buddyrose. Here's a little background on Ken's admonition re: soil ammendments. Let's say, for the sake of this discussion, that your soil is clayey. This typically means a soil that A) Drains slowly, B) Retains moisture and nutrients well, and C) Accepts moisture slowly. So now let's say you do indeed place some type of prepared soil under and around the new plant's rootball. What can, and often does happen is that the area of different soil around your new plant will become too waterlogged. The water is much more easily absorbed into this little area but can't drain out of there fast enough, kinda like a little bathtub.

This is but one example of what can happen when dissimilar soil is incorporated immediately around a new plant. What most of us recommend these days is to use the very same soil you removed to dig the hole to backfill with. This will insure no weird drainage anomalies. Also, think of it this way: The tiny area around the rootball is ultimately an insignificant area of soil in relation to where that plant's roots need to get to.....if the thing is going to survive. So "improving" this small area is of no benefit in any time scale save the shortest possible, and even that may not hold true, for the reasons cited above.

If you can incorporate organic matter and other amendments into a large area, ie. the entire ultimate rootzone of the plant(s), then yes, this could be beneficial, but a little tiny area around the new plant, no, not a good thing.

I hope this aids in understanding this issue. If something still seems amiss, hit us back. We love yacking about this stuff!

+oM

Tom,

Well said, and if this issue ever comes up again, and it will, just copy and past this thread to the new soil amendment question.

The guy selling the BIG BAG of planting mix didn't tell you he gets a commission for pushing this stuff. So he pushes this stuff with every sale he makes. He obviously didn't know what he was talking about and only had his self interest in mind.

Dave

thanks guys.

Ken: my soil is rich, farm land soil. Everything in my yard grows like crazy. I have about 2 inches of natural pine mulch covering my gardens except touching the wood of plants. The bag cost $5 and he wasn't so much a "snake oil" salesman as he was a very helpful, excited, eager to please young guy. heheheheee. Ken, you made me laugh cuz I'm usually the jaded New Yorker but here it's YOU. LOL

Now why am i planting now? Funny you would ask. I was going to wait until Fall. I know better... I do. BUT my Spruce is almost dead. It is in the center of my smallish garden. AND I CAN'T STAND LOOKING AT IT AAAAARRRRGH!
So I'm getting it out and putting something in now. It will work OR IT WON'T. I have planted and transplanted before during summer and so far EXCEPT FOR DROWNING MY SPRUCE, I've been okay. (Mind you some landscaper told me "make sure you give it plenty of water." merde!)

+oM (is that Tom?) I usually put back the soil I dug out when I put a plant into the ground. My guts told me I didn't need this amendment but the kid was so darn excited about it. (I swear he wasn't a snake oil salesman)

I'll return the unopened bag tomorrow. AND WHILE I'M AT THE NURSERY, I'LL TAKE PHOTOS OF MY PINUS THUNDERHEAD to post because I'm like a kid at Christmas... I can't wait for Santa.... And that also explains why I'm planting now, warm weather, Ken. You're asking me to wait until Sept.!!!! ooooohhhh I don't think I can.

For what it's worthy Rose, I might add fertilizer occasionally to some of my plants, slow acting, 6-month type stuff if the plant looks like it's been in the pot a while, but for the most part I don't amend my soil at all unless it's really unsuitable for conifers(which isn't many soils). If you hang around here long enough you'll see photos of conifers surviving(if not perhaps thriving) in some pretty bad soils, heavier clays, pure sand, etc.

For me, one of the biggest draws of conifers if how user-friendly they are. They don't require fertilizer(technically EVER), no pruning unless you want to or planted it in the wrong spot, no weeds(eventually) beneath them, no water needed(after a couple of years), no leaves to rake up, etc.

Did I mention they get better(and more valuable!) with age?

Go go! Plant conifers! :)

-Will

So Will when the needles drop, you just leave them on the ground? Okay. good to know.

When i get my Spruce outta the ground I was going to rake ALL those dead needles just in case I didn't drown it and it's diseased. (BUT TRUST ME -- I DROWNED IT.)

I would add a D) to +oM's list on clay, which is low aeration particularly when compacted.

The pro-amendment camp would probably say amendments can increase aeration, thus helping the tree get established where heavy clay is prevalent.

Buddyrose, sounds like your soil is already excellent without amendment. Good luck with the new tree!

You want the same dirt all through the whole rooting area, with no pockets or zones of different material to interfere with the satisfactory movement of water into and out of the vicinity of the tree.

Even the field soil or potting soil (or both) that comes with the tree can and often does produce such problems. Recognition of this has resulted in bare-rooting at planting being advocated.

Another reason for exposing the roots at planting is to inspect them for the pandemic problem of careless container culture resulting in deformities like binding, circling, j-rooting etc.

thanks all. I never thought to inspect the roots. I just knew that something that had the shape of the pot it was just in was packed too tightly so I open the sides and bottom before planting to help it grow.

Hi Rose. Great choice ; I think you're going to love that plant. And with all this first-class planting information at hand, your gardener better make a good job of it...the (conifer)world is watching! Cheers T.
PS: Post a picture when it's done!

Whoa Sluice! For a second there, I thought you were grading my treatise with a "D"! Pays to read whole sentences, it turns out!

The other thing that I should have mentioned, the E part, is DO mulch around new plantings if you can. That practice alone can surely make the difference between surviving and not surviving. And it can make the difference between surviving and thriving. Cheap too if you are able to source something at low or no cost. Regular old woodchips are ideal for this.

And BBoy has brought up the issue of root deformities which, when one starts to look, are everywhere in potted and B&B stock, especially potted. Most of the time, you'll hear that you should plant the tree at the same depth that it was in the nursery (B&B). My colleagues and I have dismantled some rootballs where the root flare was buried by as much as 18 inches of field soil. This happens when the nursery cultivates between rows, the soil getting heaped up around the area that will be the future root ball. sometimes, new roots form above the original root flare due to this practice. We sometimes cut these off in order to place the tree at the proper depth, other times leave it if it has gone on too long like this. It's a judgment call at this point. Mostly, we don't work with B&B stock much these days but that does mean we must do most of our planting when the trees are still dormant. This spring, we planted over one thousand street trees-all bare root.

+oM

+oM, to be sure, I find your treatise most excellent!

Sorry to resurrect this old thread, but having killed my share of conifers, and not wanting to kill anymore...

My soil is primarily heavy clay. I gather from what bboy and +oM wrote, it would seem the best thing to do is to remove all of the soil that comes with the potted tree and plant it bare root, using the "native" soil to fill up the planting hole. Is this correct? I certainly can't amend the soil for "the entire ultimate rootzone of the plant(s)...." I wonder how many of my previous trees died because of the "bathtub" effect mentioned by +oM. :-(

Holly

It's possible your previous trees were killed by the bathtub effect. A couple of mine met a similar demise.

One thing that's helped me is to see how water moves through the planting area. The trees I drowned were planted in spring, and there wasn't much rain during the summer. It turns out, my bathtubs were caused by irrigation runoff in a low lying area, from my sprinkler and some contribution from my neighbor's sprinkler. I've gone back and successfully planted in the very same spot, with no change in irrigation, by putting in a raised bed. It didn't take much, just a few inches.

One reason I like to amend is because it's very difficult for me to work with clay. It has no tilth. It's heavy, unruly, chunky, and difficult to shovel. It sticks in large globs to my hands, to the shovel, and to itself. It does not provide for a uniform backfill, which makes me concerned about frost pockets near the roots. So I amend, heavily. Unfortunately, it makes planting even a single tree a very time consuming event! Lately I've been using a combination of organic matter (e.g compost) and inorganic (e.g. expanded shale, scoria, perlite, etc). Some very experienced conifer folks in Denver use turface, and I will be adding that to my mix this year as well.

That said, I also like the water retention features of clay, as it helps the soil stay moist between waterings.

Another part of my (working) theory is that a finely aerated and well draining area near the freshly planted tree promotes rapid new root growth, which in turn increases the plant's chances for survival.

In time, the trees will figure out on their own where to put their roots.

Spring melt at Gore Creek, Vail

hey holly ...

start a new post about planting in clay .... and check the box that will send replies to your email ....

the trick.. as i understand it.. is planting above elevation ... will explain more in your new post ...

ken

Thank you for that info, sluice. Where do you buy turface here in Colorado, and can you buy it in small quantities?

I will start a new thread as suggested, ken. I do envy buddyrose with his "rich, farm land soil." :-(

Holly

Holly, I get turface at L.L. Johnson Distributing, 4701 Ivy, Denver (303) 320-9360. Ask for Jim.

A 50 lb bag like this will set you back $11.

Jim says the MVP is popular with the local bonsai and orchid clubs, and also good for traction if your car gets stuck in the snow.

How about gypsum.Alittle cheaper than turface. Joe