I'm sure this has been said before, but I find this separation of photos and messages truly a shame. I think the main reason many of us scour gardening mags, books, and websites is for the eye candy.

Photos add so much more meaning, context and information to postings.

I understand that it can be slow for people on dial-up, but it's unfair to limit the web experiences of the many because a few people don't have the necessary internet connection.

They are ways to resolve this, for example:

- as many sites do, limit the size of photos people can post (e.g. 150 kb) to enable faster loading

- people on slow connetions have the option to view web pages without photos

It's a real deterrent to conversation, IMO, to have to switch between the gallery and the main forum. Obviously other people find this off-putting as well, judging by the dearth of comments on the gallery forums.

To me, this is akin to having to maintain water barrels beside highways because some people still travel by horse and cart. ;-) (Maybe that's a good "green" idea!)

Hope I didn't offend anyone, that wasn't my intention. I just really LOVE looking at people's gardening photos and having them integrated into discussions.

That's the purpose of the Gallery, photos and discussion of the pics. One would ideally expect to find posts that are heavy with pics in the Gallery. Gallery posts can have discussion, as much posting as desired.

Meantime, Discussion is, um, 'talking about our gardens' and an occasional photo or two is not out of order. It's the threads heavy with huge photos that get difficult.
I like the Gallery, it gives us another place to look.

An alternative to posting in the Gallery is to post a link to an album. You do not have to 'switch between' --right click on the link and click on 'open in a new window' to see the photos in the link while keeping the conversation window open as well.

I've been as guilty as any about posting a bunch of pics in Discussion. I do try to make them fewer than 100 kb, and use thumbnails or small clickables in someone else's thread.
I don't see much sense in one person insisting on bringing their yacht up the creek, swamping everybody else's little canoes.

Nell

That might be the purpose of the gallery, but the gallery is clearly not achieveing its purpose. There is MUCH less discussion there, despite the beautiful photos.

Countless web studies affirm you lose readers each time you ask them to click.

Just sayin'. :-)

I don't have a yacht, but I have a decently-equipped dinghy. I'll try not to splash you as I putter along the information highway. LOL!

Let's get practical here. Your thread, Kaillean, on identifying your honeysuckle, had an appropriate photo for the discussion.
You added another, still appropriate, and a link. Good form.

Had someone come along and added 4 photos of 300kb each of their assorted vines, that would have been a little much.
Had you asked for "Show me All your Honeysuckles" -- that would have been appropriate for the Gallery.

Despite web studies, if a Cottage Gardener thinks there are photos somewhere, they're gonna click, most times. Their loss if they don't.

Nell

Absolutely Nell, Cottage Gardeners click on everything!!! As active as this forum is, one would miss many posts if we only had one place to post. Everytime I go to the Cottage Garden forum I click on Discussions AND Gallery and usually Conversations.

When I was composing my recent Canada trip post I initially started in Conversations but realized with the number of photos I had the Gallery was the more appropriate place for it eventhough it was not 'strickly' garden related.
Vikki

Welcome to the cottage forum, kailleanm.

I tend to agree with Diana and Nell. I haven't post here in sometime because of the overwhelming amount of pictures. Although I love looking at them, there's been too many for me to respond. I don't want to hurt any-one's feelings by not responding to them all.

Cheers!

Edna

"That's the purpose of the Gallery, photos and discussion of the pics."

Exactly, Nell. And if the gallery doesn't seem to be achieving its purpose and there appears to some to be far less discussion, then consider the maxim "if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem." If we want something to work we have to make it work. Another words, do our part - comment, discuss, etc.

"It's a real deterrent to conversation, IMO, to have to switch between the gallery and the main forum."

I don't understand how this could be so. If you can comment on someone's pics on the Discussion side you can do the same on the Gallery side.

"Countless web studies affirm you lose readers each time you ask them to click."

These studies generally pertain to online business sites. They reveal that when someone seeks to make a purchase online they want to do so as expeditiously as possible. Visiting a garden site and browsing pics or reading advice is more of a leisurely activity. If there are studies that say otherwise, I'd like to read them.

As for having to click on another link to view lots of pics, I don't see how that is such a burden. One has to click on the Cottage to get to Discussions. And then one clicks on the threads to read them or see pics. I suspect folks click on a number of threads before moving on to another forum, where they click on more threads. Its all clicking and opening new pages regardless of where they take us.

"as many sites do, limit the size of photos people can post (e.g. 150 kb) to enable faster loading."

GW has to make that decision. I suppose you could ask them but in the meantime they have given us the Gallery so we don't have to worry about size of pics.

"I understand that it can be slow for people on dial-up, but it's unfair to limit the web experiences of the many because a few people don't have the necessary internet connection."

I feel just the opposite and I am not on dial-up. To me those "few" are just as important as the rest and their experience here should not be diminished because they don't have access to a faster internet connection.

"I think the main reason many of us scour gardening mags, books, and websites is for the eye candy."

I like garden "eye candy" as much as the next person but I don't think the folks who contribute regularly to this forum, and have consequently made it one of the most popular forums on GW, come here just for the pics. We come here out of our mutual love of gardening and our desire to share our knowledge, hopes and dreams with others who feel the same. While a pic is often worth a thousand words, just a few words of advice, encouragement and empathy work wonders, as well.

"As active as this forum is, one would miss many posts if we only had one place to post."

This is probably more important than many realize. GW doesn't save the threads for very long so despite having 60+ pages, if everything were on one page we could lose a lot of posts in a short time. The Kitchen forum is a good example. That is probably the fastest moving forum on this site with lots of pics and a gallery that is largely ignored. Consequently, the threads roll off in a couple of months and the search feature is often useless. Since the Cottage is already a busy forum, the Kitchen forum's problem soon could be ours if we had everything on one page.

Diana

A problem is there is no consistency between the forums. I frequent other forums here on GW and some of them don't even have a gallery. Others have galleries that are completely abandoned. The only reason the cottage forum has a gallery with some use is because every couple of months we have a discussion where we ask/beg/coerce others to use the gallery. But in my opinion it is clumsy and awkward. I try to use it to respect the wishes of some here, but I don't like it.

I only visit the gallery about once a week. It may not sound like a big deal, but I daily visit a few other forums, and since the gallery is so little used, it seems like too much effort to check it frequently when there are not a lot of changes. It's just like another infrequently visited forum, upstate NY. In reality I know it takes very little time, but psychologically it is an impediment. And many new users don't even know it exists. I was a member of GW for over a year before I noticed it!

my opinion only:
If you're going to post a bunch of photos in discussions, put that notice in the tag line, so you've warned users.

If you want to add a photo to a discussion, make sure it is relevant, keep it small, and only add one.

The bigger problem is when people add 6 photos to someone else's discussion thread and bog it down for dial-up users. Especially when one photo would work.

I was a dial-up user for 3 years. If a thread took too long to load, I would just quit it. Not a big deal, but I felt I was missing stuff. That's why I finally gave in and spent the $$ in broadband. I realize not everyone can get or wants broadband, but they are already aware that their connection will limit their web experience, not just at GW but everywhere. (as I did for 3 years, and accepted that in order to save money)

The gallery serves a purpose in allowing people to post a photo who do not have a online photo account, that's how I first discovered it.

As I said, just my opinion, but I think it's clunky to have separate places for the same group of people to meet. And of the forums I visit, this is the only forum where it seems to be used for separate discussions rather than for those without an online photo account.

Broadband service is not available in all areas. I have begun to skip the postings which have huge, large-size photo downloads. I can walk away from the computer, return fifteen minutes later, and find that only seven out of twelve photos have downloaded. Sometimes it is faster than that, depends how many users are on Garden Web at any given time. The medium size and thumbnail photos download much more quickly. Rules of netiquette generally evolve for good reason.

Lorna

Regardless of where you all post your photos I WILL find them. I check the gallery everytime I check Cottage Gardens. I love seeing how you all garden and mix your plants.

Bonny

I for one visit the gallery end of forums only to find
the most recent post being that of example august 6 2007
I do not find recent post on the gallery end so I just
stay on the main page to view the photos and to discuss them.

Blueangel
who has high speed internet

I was a dial-up user until about 6 months ago so I do know how impossible several pictures are. I would just bypass big pics or lots of pics; not a problem.

I never know what to do here. For a while people were using the gallery then, it seemed they weren't, so I did both places.

Nell brings up a good point about adding to others threads with pics of your own. Sometimes this is just web etiquette that I am totally ignorant of. Thanks for explaining.

So, what is the consensus? Just one or two pics, post here and more to the gallery or post all pics to the gallery?

Blueangel, I have found that to be true on many of the forums' galleries but it's not true for the Cottage gallery.

"A problem is there is no consistency between the forums. I frequent other forums here on GW and some of them don't even have a gallery. Others have galleries that are completely abandoned. The only reason the cottage forum has a gallery with some use is because every couple of months we have a discussion where we ask/beg/coerce others to use the gallery. But in my opinion it is clumsy and awkward. I try to use it to respect the wishes of some here, but I don't like it."

I've only seen this discussion come up once a year and it's usually in the spring when posts with lots of large pics start showing up. A few years ago it wasn't too big of a problem and would die down in about a month but now it's evolving into an every day occurrence. And I've seen no coercion, just folks trying to help keep this forum running smoothly since GW has largely given up the task.

I have to say I don't get the psychological impediment. We're already clicking on links all over the page, why would clicking on one at the top be so different? I don't know, after being chided by some for not making the effort to hang out clothes, clicking a mouse for less than a second pales in comparison. ; )

"As I said, just my opinion, but I think it's clunky to have separate places for the same group of people to meet. And of the forums I visit, this is the only forum where it seems to be used for separate discussions rather than for those without an online photo account."

And your opinion is valuable and I'm glad you expressed it. : ) Try checking out the Roses forums. They have active discussion and gallery pages. From my experience, the forums that are less active can handle the large pic posts while the busier forums such as this one suffer from them. But that's just my opinion and I'm willing to go along with whatever is decided. : )

Diana

I wasn't going to add my two cents but....
I think I've been guilty of posting more than 1 or 2 pictures on the discussion side, I have to get my DH to do the work of resizing them on his computer then he transfers them to the computer I use. In future if I do post pictures on the discussion side I will limit it to 2 at most and if there are more just say the rest are on the gallery side.
Now the size of the pictures I post on this side are around 70 KB or smaller, is this a good size for here or should they be smaller, at this size you still get a good sense of what you're looking at.
On the gallery side, for dial up users would it be better to post 1 picture with details and the rest in a link? This way they could get a sense of what it's all about and either open the link or not, their choice. This way they/we can keep tabs on the thread and everyones comments without having to scroll down through all the pictures each time. I do like reading all the comments as I find its like sitting around a table with good friends, distance seems to disappear.
Just trying to be part of of the solution and not the problem.
Annette

Annette, once a photo thread has been opened up and downloaded, it remains downloaded. That is to say, if I go back to that thread to read the comments, all of previously downloaded photos open up right away.

Sometimes a larger picture is best because of the detail it shows. Other times a medium size photo suits the purpose. The thumbnails also have their purpose.

I usually don't post more than one photo on the discussion or conversation pages. That is just my choice. I think two photos is okay.

Lorna

I didn't mean to raise anyone's hackles. I've been lurking for a long time, but only infrequently post, so I certainly understand that other contributors have more say.

It just seems there is a consensus that everyone loves photos. So why not make it as easy as possible for people to view and comment on them? I LOVE photos but I just never visit the gallery because it interrupts the flow of reading the messages on the forums that I like.

Of course it's not "hard" to follow the links, but I just don't do it and I venture many others don't either.

It's easy enough to limit photo sizes to avoid bogging down the lines. On most other sites I visit you simply aren't allowed to post large photos. When you try, you get a message saying photos can only be Xkb.

IMO, it's not so much the number, but the size of photos that make it slow. For example, I might be within the rules to post one giant size photo, but another post with 10 small photos may be quicker to load. So restricting number of photos is not the problem.

Anyway, it seems as if I am in the minority so I will shut up (on this topic!) for now.

I always enjoy this forum because everyone seems to have such a great and helpful attitude, and a genuine love of gardening that they gladly share with others.

So I don't mean to complain (too much). :-)

Hi Kaileanm! I don't think you raised anyone's hackles. You gave your opinion and that is just fine. The reason I quoted the points you made is because I find things become less construed that way. Now there's something GW could use - a quote button! lol!

Diana

That is true! Ivillage is really quite behind in its bulletin board technology, considering how many users there are.

If you all make it to difficult of where to post and insist on clickables and links...I for one, will no longer be posting on this forum....I just don't have the time to be bothered with all these fussy fidley things.

Gallery...post photos and discuss said photos.

Discussions...learn about gardening, ask gardening questions, share gardening experiences...WITHOUT pics.

Conversations...TM's trivia.....and any other off topic conversations that does not pertain to gardening.

Its simple and its fast....and all that is needed to keep this forum friendly and lively.

Just my opinion,

Sierra

I'm with you, Sierra, although I don't mind a few pics in the discussions if it helps explain someone's situation and they have asked for them.

I think what most of us are asking is for those who post lots of pics of their gardens in one post just for the purpose of sharing to do so in the gallery, as that was its original purpose and really does help things flow better.

"That is true! Ivillage is really quite behind in its bulletin board technology, considering how many users there are."

Amen to that! : ) The other sites I visit all have quote and edit features. I love the way the Fuselage is set up.

I've read all the comments on Nell's thread and still don't get the whole wanting everything on one page because it's easier. Regardless of what page you look at you have to click or use back buttons to do everything except type a message. It's all just clicking on links that take you to another page, whether it be the discussion title page, the page of a thread, the gallery page, etc. Regardless, you end up somewhere else.

Maybe I am just not set in my ways enough. lol! Or maybe some are just exhausted from other stuff. Fingers sore from pinning up laundry. ; )

Diana

Thanks for bringing this up Diana. I'm a long-time advocate for the gallery and check it every time I log in. That's what it's there for. I understand that people might not want to click over. But we have a separate area for photos and it should be utilized as such.

I've been mean lately- I won't look or comment at the photo threads on the discussion side because I feel they don't belong there. Guess I'm getting cranky in my old age.

Tracy

whew, guess this is a passionate topic...just look at all the responses!

I'm with you Diana...I don't understand "all the work" involved in point and click.

I usually read what I want to from discussions, click over to the gallery and look at what interest me there and lastly glance at conversations.

This time of year the whole process takes longer because there are, naturally, more posts, but I wouldn't change a thing.

If the gallery and discussions were combined I'm afraid I would be less inclined to click on extended pages and therefore would probably miss some posts that I would have loved to see.

Its apparent that visiting Garden Web has become a part of my life...a good part...I love it. In the grand scheme of things it makes no never mind to me how its set up, I'll still be looking. Actually, we might get more folks to post garden pictures if the discussions and gallery were combined.
Vikki

Ah Tracy, you could never be mean. And you've been missed. : )

One thing I'm noticing on Nell's thread is quite a few of those who don't look at the gallery also seldom, if ever, participate in the discussions. I'm not saying they have to in order to visit or voice their opinion. Rather, I think the survey is revealing that many of those who don't use the gallery or look at it come here for a very different reason than those of us who contribute more than pretty pictures.

So I'll ask some of you - what's up? : ) Are you shy? Is this just eye candy for you? Do you find the discussions boring? lol! Tell us why you just lurk or post when topics like this come up.

I really am curious and not trying to stir the pot. : )
Diana

So what do you propose doing when people "violate the rules"? There will be lots more people who never see this post. Especially since this is different from other forums. It's pretty clear this really peeves people.

Does this mean NO photos in the discussion side?

LOL! I just posted the below on the other thread:

Yes I do, plus my two cents, lol.(Watch me finish posting this and find there is another thread of this discussion, lol.) I'm in the if you've got a lot of pics to just show, post in the gallery camp. I think if you've got a question/discussion and photos would be helpful, post on the regular forum, and if it is more than a couple pics put a warning on the title.
I'm on high speed now, but I know what a PITA it was to click on a thread that would take forever or freeze up my computer. It is like when people put a link to a PDF and don't say so. I hate them, lol, they take forever to load, and I can't click back out of them.
And a bit off topic, having Mozilla with the ad block is a wonderful thing. It makes loading pages so much faster.

Tracy,
Lol, oh your so old! It is weird though, I've been doing what you've been doing too.
Remy

There are no Forum PO-LICE to keep order, so using the Gallery is not enforced. Nothing will happen if one fails to use the Gallery, except that the post may be ignored, as several have indicated. The OP of this thread was trying to gently remind users of the Gallery option to help keep the Forum on track.

Some years back, some nice people here went to a lot of trouble to campaign for a Gallery. I notice that last year, two other Forums asked for and failed to receive one.

Discussion is good. Many who never even noticed those other buttons might now visit Gallery and Conversations.

Use a little netiquette. If a thread starts with a couple of small to medium photos don't throw in six of your own honking big pics, start your own thread.

Nell

I enjoy visiting here and don't really care where pics are posted. I would like to extend an invitation to those of you who enjoy photos and discussion to take a look at Gardenbuddies. Maybe some of you are already members. I know that many there are former & current GardenWebbers.

Here is a link that might be useful: GardenBuddies

I think I gotta agree with gottagarden on the lack of consistancy among gw forums. I'm relatively new and not a regular poster on any gw forums and frankly I forget which forums have a gallery, which I'm supposed to post pictures on a galery, etc. I LOVE looking at pictures, but I hate that I probably miss a ton because I even forget to look in the gallery because some forums don't have a gallery, some don't have any activity in theirs, and some want all their pictures in there.

I guess someone asked about those who aren't "regualars" that don't go to the gallary and I guess I'm one of those. I live in California, am a new gardener, and love the Cottege look as far as I know. I don't think the California forum really has enough activity to even have a gallery. I go through spells when I log in a lot, and some when I might only once a month. (Ok, I have young kids and might have mommy brain too.) So I might forget that on Cottege Gardens I should check out the Gallery, but on California Gardening and Composting they either don't have one or no one is there. You know? It's just confusing for those of us that aren't on much but still really respect the value of conversation here (and might accidently post lots of pictures inadvertantly. Sorry.)

And with all that said, being I'm from CA, the bay area no less, I'm sorry, but it's hard to understand those still on dial-up who can't view pictures instantaneously...

As an explanation about why lots are still on dial-up....

Many rural areas still don't have any other options which is a disgrace in our country! I am just 20 miles from a major SW Mo town, Springfield, Mo., and we just had wireless offered maybe a year ago. I think now there are two wireless services, but when I took mine, there was only one. The thing through AT & T phone lines is a joke! I hated the extra expense but decided to do it and I love it.

There were many times I would have to give up on a thread that had lots of pictures no matter the size so I really appreciate those with dial-up difficulties.

Well, I wasn't going to chime in with an opinion, but I can't help myself. I've been called a Rules Follower which explains why I post pictures in the Gallery. But I have discovered as a newcomer that it's (what I call in my mind) "The Regulars" that use the Gallery. And while some of "The Regulars" do provide comments on a newcomer's pictures, others only seem to interact with other "Regulars" (human nature, I guess). You're more likely to have interaction with other newcomers and people other than "The Regulars" if you post pictures on the Discussion side.

Mary

Well, Tracy and remy, I've been doing the same thing, so you're not alone!

I don't mind a picture, or 2, on the discussion side if it illustrates a point and enhances the topic being discussed. But a stream of garden photos without a discussion topic, or question is, to me, a showcase which lends itself to the Gallery side.

Marilyn

One thing I do agree with -- it's not fair to add a bunch of photos to someone else's thread where there is no warning in the subject header that photos are included.

On another note, and this might be a dumb question, but....

It seems as if the staunchest advocates of the separate gallery forum are those who cite how difficult it is to download photos on dial-up.

But if you can see them okay in the gallery, why not the main page? What is the difference?

I see it both ways. It does seem a bit easier to just post pics on the discussion area. And if you notice there always seems to be double the responces to the posts on the discussion side than to the gallery, so obviously its not frequented as much by everyone. But I rather agree with eveyone that the discussion side is meant for discussions, and the gallery for pics. I do always enjoy an examplar photo or two in the discussions tho. Maybe, if someone really wanted to show their gardens on the discussion side, they could post two or three pics as a preview sampler, but post the bulk of their photos on the gallery.
CMK- who's not sure shes considered a lurker or not

I'll go along with anything. I'm easy.

Libby..........a follower not a leader :)

Why do I consider myself a lurker and not post? I am just starting out in gardening and I have very little to contribute in pictures or discussions about gardening since I know next to nothing about it and feel inadequate about voicing my opinions. (You know what they say about opinions, don't you?) But I have learned quite a lot by reading everyone else's discussion and truly enjoy the pictures and hope that someday my garden will be as lovely as those I've seen here. And there have been times when I have felt put off by some of the comments/discussion because they seemed a little highfalutin' for someone of such country bumpkin status as myself. Granted I try to keep in mind that they are opinions. For the most part I feel that the people on this forum are quite friendly and helpful. I just don't feel I'm in the same gardening league as everyone. And since these are written posts I tend to hang back from replying since written words can be highly miscontrued. I'm sure that there are other reasons why people lurk and don't participate regularly.

To answer the question, 'Why the Gallery?' for posts/photos taking a long time to download for some, the Gallery takes just as long to load, BUT:

Not only those on dial-up; also those with older computers that are slower and those who have a slow server would expect that heavy posts will be in Gallery and
only go there when they have time to sit and wait for photos to load if they want to see.

They would visit Discussions expecting to quickly read posts with interesting topics without being surprised with something that freezes up their computer.
Once they click, it's too late when they realize what's trying to load; usually they can't back out.

It's a surprise to some, as stated above, but not all of us are privileged to have access to cable hookups or DSL latest technology, even if we could afford it.
It just doesn't reach far out into the country. It's the price we pay for not having to have privacy fences.

Nell

"So what do you propose doing when people "violate the rules"?"

Burn you all at the garden stake! LOL! Seriously, I think Nell has summed it all up quite nicely.

A big thanks to those of you who answered my query. : )

If it seems like the "regulars" are the ones who use the Gallery that is because we are continually trying to keep this forum running as smoothly as possible for all users, regardless of their internet capabilities or the time they spend on this forum. We are not being inclusive - we've just spent many years here and know what works best in the long run - for everyone. It's not about the needs of the many at the expense of the few, especially considering that those "few" have giving a lot of their time and knowledge to making this forum one of the best on GW. I'd also challenge anyone who may think the "regulars" are inclusive to check out the posts from new folks. You will always find the regulars posting a great big Cottage welcome. And we sincerely mean it. : )

Now back to the pic posting problem. I'd suggest we use this forum as it is set up, regardless of what other forums do. This is about what works best for this forum, which as I have said repeatedly, is a much busier forum than most so its needs will be different.

Discussions for asking questions, answering questions, sharing gardening experiences and if any pics are included, keep them a reasonable size and relative to the post.

Gallery for sharing a large number of pics, comment on them, ask questions about them, but don't add additional pics unless the OP has specifically asked for them, such as "Show me your _____".

Conversations is for everything non-garden related but gardening is not actually excluded since that's what most of us dig doing. : )

Now for those of you who would like to see things done differently, why not ask GW for the changes you desire. Perhaps they will agree and take away the other two forums. I for one hope they look at the past half dozen years and see how well the three forums work when used properly and with respect to all users. But they may not and you'll get your wish to have everything dumped in one place. This will in turn lead to posts ending up on page 2, 3, 4 . . . (ah, more clicking) in no time at all, just like Kitchens, and just like that forum folks will be exclaiming "hey, where'd my post go!"

Diana

Nell, this was an issue on the Cooking forum about 4 or 5 years ago. A gallery was created, but it was soon obvious that food photos went with food discussions. The gallery became a place to showcase other photos. Some members tried to appease those most irritated by the photos on the Discussions side by posting thumbnails, links to photos, or by putting the word (pic) in the subject line. Most people adjusted. Some didn't.

I do empathize with the irritation created by dialup. That's how we started out. And for that reason I will not post more than 2 pics at a time. Now, would it help if everyone made that promise?