Tom:

Thanks for the description of the red pine plantation. I am not sure what I said about my red pines in past posts, but they are doing well. One area was planted with red pine and white pine in alternate rows in 1960. Most of the white pines were cut for christmas trees or dug for nursery stock many years ago. The white pines that were left are now 95 to 100 feet tall and are about 18 to 24 inches in diameter. The red pine are about 75 feet tall and 15 to 18 inches in diameter. There has been a lot of in-growth of hardwoods, but the deer are keeping it down, except for the beech. I have been pulling up the beech where it is coming in too thick, because I want to be able to see and enjoy the pines. The soil is a rather heavy, moderately drained Ernest or Cookport silt loam--rather rich soils normally dominated by hardwoods (site index 75 to 85 for red oak)--ideal for growing black cherry and there are three nice ones that came up with the pines. It seems perfect for the white pines, but may be a little heavier than the red pines prefer.

Another plantation is also red and white pines in alternate rows, planted in 1966. Here there are more white pine remaining than on the other site--generally enough to produce a more or less pure stand after the red pine are all eventually overtopped. This is on a somewhat lighter, better drained soil--Gilpin channery loam--which is usually tilled and planted in corn, oats, or hay. Here the tallest white pine are 85 feet tall and up to 21 inches in diameter. The red pine are about 70 feet tall and average about 16 inches in diameter. Here the red pine look a little better than on the other site--the crowns seem denser and the growth rate a little better. There is much less in-growth of hardwoods here--very little in fact. This is partly because the stand is a bit younger and has more white pine, and partly because there is less hardwood trees upwind.

I have thinned my pines regularly to a basal area of about 170 square feet, which is very high stocking by most forestry standads, but much lower than an unthinned stand. And this thinning has resulted in better crown development and faster diameter growth than would happen with red pines in an unthinned stand.

But in our area red pines have a lot of problems. There is the annosus root rot, which if stumps are not carefully treated, can get into a stand and basically destroy it. We have a big pine bark beetle problem, which kills a lot of red pine, especially if they are not kept vigorous by thinning. Sometimes red squirrels strip the bark. A few years the forest service even stopped offering seedlings because the trees were performing so poorly. But if they are thinned carefully they do quite well, and those in the second stand I described above are still competing with the white pines, falling behind only very slowly, which has surprized me. But I am nervous about them and people keep teling me they may start dieing soon--we'll see!

--Spruce

Tom,

Thanks for starting this thread. I like hearing about the latest greatest cultivars, but I find threads on species (especially native) so interesting. Probably no big surprise, but Red Pine does very well over here in the western part of the state. Its the tree of choice for commercial forests and plantations are all around me. While I'd be reluctant to recommend it for ornamental use, I've gained an appreciation for it over the years. A couple years ago I ran across a stand of Red Pines in northern Minnesota (state tree) estimated from the early 1800's that were simply stunning. The property was homesteaded around 1870, and these trees were already there. I've posted these pictures before, so I hope I'm not boring anyone with them.

BTW, I've read that these trees can throw down a tap root 18" their first year, and in loamy sand (like mine) the roots will grow out 40' from the crown. I'm sure that's why these trees are so wind firm. You rarely see a Red Pine blown over.

Bob

Spruceman, from everything I've read here (And trees forum) about your timberland, it sounds an excellent site for a wide array of species. I wasn't suggesting that the plantings I described were anything exceptional on a national scale. Just happy to see a good degree of success in reestablishing good forest cover. The history of Northern Wisconsin is one of decimation of the original forest-complete clear-cut logging followed by raging slash fires which in many cases are believed to have been so intense as to burn the very humus in the soil. Add to that the fact that some glacially deposited soils really are nothing but sand, gravel, and rocks, and it awes me that anything was able to grow. The resiliency of nature is perhaps the fundamental wonder of this world!

Yeah Basic I know what you mean. I got jaded on red pine because of its very ubiquity in these parts, esp. plantations of.....but now I'm starting to really appreciate it more. Those Minnesota pics are great, well worth viewing again.

+oM

Tom:

Well, I just thought you might be interested in how red pine does down here. It is funny that the MD forest service, with their "heritage group" or whatever it is officially called, will not allow forest plantings of Norway spruce and larch, etc. because they are not native to the area, but they will permit, in fact, promote, the planting of red pine as a native tree here. But the only excuse for calling red pine native here is a very small "outlier" in the mts of central WV. Red pine struggles here and tends to be short lived in the face of all the problems.

But Norway spruce does wonderfully and except for the white pine weevil and a very occasional spot or two of cytospora, is completely problem free and is very long-lived. And it grows into the most wonderful soaring timber stands. But the MD forest service "tree nazis" won't let it be planted (under any state sponsored program).

And, of course, we are losing our native trees one-by-one to foreign diseases and insect infestations. One of the more recent is the Canadian hemlock which is being killled by the wooly adelgid. In a few ways, Norway spruce could replace these dying hemlock, but not permitted!

On a side note, there are still efforts underway to find a predator beetle that can eat the adelgids. I did a web search trying to find an update on these efforts. What I found is scant, but they are still trying. The PA forest service says that they have hopes but expect it will be 10 years before they will know what is possible. My timberland has hemlock throughout, some of it very old and very beautiful. From previous posts maybe you remember how I like to look directly up through the crowns of conifers growing close together. No tree gives such a wonderful impression of soaring height into the stratosphere as hemlock. They are not the tallest conifer growing here, although the best go to 160 feet. But the impression of saoring height is really wonderful, created, I think, by the density and arrangement of the branches. When I finally get a digital camera I will post some pictures. I hope I get to this before my hemlocks die--the adelgid is only a very few miles away--half a dozen or so--on two sides. AAARRRGGHH!

Anyway, I do go off the topic sometimes--forgive me.

--Spruce

Maybe you can shed some light on these questions
I live in Manitowoc Co,Our school agriculture class had a program of planting trees each spring.they also gave away free trees for wind breaks and reforestation.Red pine was the third most popular tree,right behind White pine and White cedar.This was in the late 70's.Most of these trees seem to be struggling,others hit 20-30ft and die.These are in heavy clay soils.
Where I live the soil is sandy loam,I have 2 red pine on my lawn that were in decline.
I fertalized them and piled brush around there bases [to keep the roots cooler and conserve moisture.
Q. 1 Is there certain nutrients lacking in my soil compared to NW WI were red pine grows good? or
Q. 2 Does red pine prefer cooler temps?

After fertalizer and mulch one tree regained its dark green color,the other is still struggling.
They do have sawfly larvae on them in early summer.
Q. 3 Is the sawfly a big problem?

If you have any clues to what is going on,and maybe a remedy? I sure would like to keep them healthy.

Thanks!

lpptz:

I really have no specific idea about what could be causing a problem with your red pine. But from what I have seen and heard, red pine does not do well outside its native range. Some conifers, especially Norway spruce, grow very well in a wide range of areas where it is not native, and does well in situations where temperatures and rainfall are not what one might expect would be needed. But for some reason, or a whole host of reasons, some conifers are very sensitive and cannot grow outside their native ranges because their requirements are very strict.

The reason why most of the red pine planted in your area are struggling could be the heavy clay soil--from what I know, red pine prefers a lighter, better drained soil. But your trees are on a soil that would seem to be better for red pine.

Also, red pine seems to me to be sensitive to drought. This surprizes me a bit because I am familiar with the red pine "sinker roots," which one would think would provide good moisture during dry periods. It may not be drought that directly kills red pine, but it can weaken them and make them susceptible to bark beetles.

I do not see sawflies much in my area. This late summer I saw a small patch on one of my white pines. That is the first time I saw them in my life. I have no idea where they came from because I haven't seen any others around here before. If the sawflies managed to defoliate the trees to any extent, that could be the problem right there. That defoliation can weaken them and invite the bark beetles.

As for the soil nutrient issue--maybe someone in the forest service there, of university extension could tell you about that possibility. If this were the case it would seem strange that the agriculture class would be given these seedlings to distribute. But then maybe they did not think about that issue.

But the soil issue is a good one to raise. With Norway spruce in central New York, there is a sharp difference in the growth east of Syracuse and west (generally--I am not sure exactly where the seperation line would run). The climate has to be much the same, but the trees to the east are much, much better. I think the issue is soil nutrients and I once talked to a forester in the area that thinks so to, but I can't now remember if he had an idea about just what the difference was.

--Spruce

I wouldn't have fertilized them, as this could be making a bad situation worse. Its not surprising the trees in heavy clay are struggling, but I'd think yours would be doing better. Are they close to a road? I'm probably reaching here, but they're very sensitive to salt. Well- drained soil of low-moderate fertility and full sun is the ticket for Red Pine. I once heard an oldtimer tell someone when planting these just make sure the green end is up. Where I'm at, that's about all it takes to get them going.

Bob

"Tree nazis"-I like that. It bothers me to no end how misguided folks can be even when well intentioned. Our DNR has, I believe, taken Norway spruce out of their offerings. Big mistake as far as I'm concerned. Same is true of European larch, even though it has a much wider range of useability in upland sites than our native tamarack. And then there's the state forest area to the south of Manitowoc Cty.-near Sheboygan-where they are, or already have, removed thousands of well-grown Scots pines because.......they're not native. Such a waste.

Perhaps because of my affinity to conifers, but I just don't see how the introduction of species from other parts of the country/world has any potential for harm. It's crap like buckthorn that's ruining our forests, not a spruce tree of European origin. Ughh!

Lpptz, it's impossible to say what's gone wrong with those seedlings that were planted back when. Generally, I don't see Manitowoc Cty as red pine country. As Spruceman stated, they are known for liking lighter soils. The nice plantings I referenced in the OP were from Oconto Cty-straight North of where you are. But the white pine and Thuja o. should do well. In fact, our states largest white cedar is near Maribel Caves county park, and "cedar" is at it's best all over that county. It's one of the few places in the state where natural regeneration is able to proceed in the face of our too-large deer herd, and I've always attributed this to conditions being so much to its liking that it is able to get past the deer. I dunno. Diagnosing plant problems from a distance is always fraught with difficulty.

For the red pine in your yard, have you placed a mulch layer under them? Not to be simplistic, but this is one thing that almost always helps a tree, esp. if you're able to spread the chips/bark/what-have-you out to at least the dripline of the tree. Where abouts in Manitowoc County are you? That's one of my favorite areas of the state. I just love how the cedar grows not only in the lowlands and stream banks, but right up the sides of the hills around there, usually accompanied by some hemlock. Just a great area in my book!

+oM

Thanks for all your opinions.

I live in southern Manitowoc Co near the small town of Ada in the Walla Hi area.
I don't know if the average map will show that.
I am on the northern edge of the Kettle Moraine.
sand- gravel and hills.
The section of lawn were the trees are has little to no top soil due to a hill that was cut away when our road was built 100yrs ago.
the question of salt doing some damage? maybe
The tree closest to the road is the sickest looking one.
but the snow from plowing does'nt reach the tree.
Maybe the lack of topsoil is causing the most problems.
The secound tree,the one that is doing better after mulching is in better soil area.
After reading your input,I'll keep them mulched and hope the stronger one can grow to become 100+ yrs old.
Those pics that basic4 posted is what I love about the looks of a large red pine.
My trees are about 25 yrs old- and the larger one looks about 20-25 ft tall.Maybe not so bad.
Thanks again for your thoughts
I guess I should'nt expect perfect growth,seeing I'm outside it's natural range.

Ya know Lpptz, I may have spoke too soon. The area around Point Beach State Forest is very sandy and there are red pine doing well there. Same county as where you live, but further north and right on Lake Michigan.

Long ago, many Scots pines were planted here also. So far, none of that natives-only madness here, thank gawd. I know they are not recommended for general reforestration any more, but these trees got big, and they are beautious.

+oM