no worries; you won't be accused of a hijacking. These are two different topics. While I'm no expert, my brain is fairly fresh with this topic. This afternoon, I just reviewed a few chapters of Bob Fincham's DVD on grafting.

Obvously, this time of year where you are, your understock and scions should be quite dormant. The grafting process starts with waking up your understock 2-3 weeks before grafting by moving them into a heated greenhouse. The goal here is to get some root growth and to be just shy of bud break before you attach the scions.

Bob's DVD just says, "a heated greenhouse," but doesn't say heated to what temperature. I'd like to hear what are good temperatures for breaking the understock out of dormancy, then a good temperature for the healing and knitting process of the grafts.

Thank you for the information. Right now I have my understock in my small greenhouse so I need to get my *&& together and place them somewhere so they go dormant. My problem is, if I place them outside and we get a lot of snow I will not find them come Jan. or Feb. when I'm getting my scion wood. If I place them all in an unheated Quonset do you think that will be sufficient?

Very good question about temperatures as I only heat my gh to 45 deg. It does get warmer than that when the sun comes out during the day but then goes back down to the low 40's in the evening. Will this be sufficient to bring them out of dormancy?

I REALLY appreciate all your advice. I want to get as many of my grafts to take as possible. I've been watching a lot of YouTube videos on grafting and doing a lot of reading. I've grafted apple trees and various other trees but not my conifers yet. It will be so much fun. I can't wait.

Hi Ladylotus,

Here's my experience with understock dormancy.

For mail ordered understock, they arrived dormant (shipped anywhere from Jan. to April) and I kept them in an unheated garage until putting the scions on.
They did not come out of dormancy while in the unheated garage.
After grafting, they went into a heated basement (fluctuating between 50-70 degrees), and then came out of dormancy a few weeks later.
I did not hold them at heated temps prior to grafting to get the roots going, but I do understand this is recommended by many.

For understock already on hand, I've left them outside until putting the scions on. The earliest I've grafted onto such understock was mid-January, which seemed to be enough to meet the dormancy requirement.
I suspect an unheated Quonset will be sufficient for your purposes to get them dormant.
It's an interesting question whether 45 deg will be enough to bring them out of dormancy, and it may depend on the species, although that's speculation on my part.

You asked about leaving them grow if they look healthy, I'm not sure I understand this question, are you asking if it's possible to forego the dormancy?

Since you have quite a bit of understock, one option is to try a few batches in different ways, and see what works. For grafts that don't take, you can use the understock the following year.

It sounds like an exciting project, and I'll be interested to hear how things go. Good luck!

55 is better than 45 but 45 will be ok. I keep mine at 55, perfect/ideal. You'd be wasting money to heat it to 60. But 55-60 is where you want to be.

Any place such as a garage is fine. I have a hoophouse so that's where I keep mine, same principle.

If your greenhouse is unheated until grafting time you simply keep them in there until you turn the heat on. By now you should have had those understocks outside! You've waited way too long. They should have been outdoors and not in a greenhouse at all prior to winter. My answer for you is to keep them in your greenhouse but turn down the temperature to about 35 degrees for six weeks or until you're ready to graft but a minimum of six weeks is needed for dormancy requirements to be met.

For pines, larches and firs all you need is any evidence of bud break or white root tips in the bottom of pots. For spruce you really should wait until the buds have broken and you see "actual growth." This is something no-one discusses that I'm aware of.

Of course you will be tenting your grafts. Keep the tent chamber closed and try to get the humidity up near 80% plus. If at any time your seedlings/scions or poly walls have water droplets on them, you have to resolve that. At minimum, open the chamber up, wipe the walls off and allow the plants to dry completely before you (close) the tent chamber. In the Pacific Northwest they can put the grafts on the floor and cover them with plastic - nothing more needed. In cold climates like ours - you either need a tenting chamber or you need a heated floor and cover them - or you need to bag grafts. Bags from grocery stores are ideal. You'll have to monitor anything you bag allowing for fresh air and no "sweat" build-up opening the bags a few times a week. I bag grafts when I run out of room in my chamber. It works great.

I highly recommend bottom heat in cold climates hence my suggestion/priority-thought that if you plan to use greenhouse floorspace you have a floor that isn't cold. I use heat mats- but you need to be careful when sitting flats on top of heat mats because they will dry the media very quickly. My solution was to build a chamber (see here) with layers.

If you see any mold ("cotton balls") - spray with a fungicide. Also, when your hard pines "wake up (and when buds are pushing growth)" spray with an insecticide to kill sawflies and continue to monitor them spraying a second time if necessary.

Keep the soil media fairly dry and only water when absolutely necessary. Too much water and sap will bleed and the graft union will fail. Spruce especially need dryer conditions. When grafting banksiana and resinosa (pine) the soil media need stay on the verge of nearly completely dry until after the scions push or they're toast.

I hope this helps, I really do. Any more questions just ask.

Dax

A couple more things:
shade cloth (6o/40) is better to have on hand than 50/50.

Temps in the greenhouse: if they approach 90 degrees you need to bring the temps back to 80 or less as fast as you can....shade cloth does wonders. And times of more duress/stress having on hand aluminum-sided insulation to "block sun" keeping it from penetrating into the greenhouse, could save the day. Of course opening doors and if you have a walk in greenhouse from your house or have windows that open from inside your house to the greenhouse - you can significantly lower temperatures by opening those creating a vacuum with the greenhouse exhaust fan in full mode and in conjunction with opening the outside door to the greenhouse. This is a lot of trial and error. What works for me I've learned but your situation may be much different from, mine.

Make sure you're running circulating fans at all times as well.

I mentioned grocery bags when instead I meant produce bags. They're very thin, clear & lightweight, and work great.

Remember, this is a full-time "babysitting job" - all it takes is one day when the temps soar into the 90's to 100 hovering for hours i.e. while you're away from home & it's game over.

Eventually, all this becomes instinct. Grafting apples etc- is merely child's play when compared to winter-grafting-conifers, however it's good to know how to make cuts, skimming that bark off.

Dax

Ok, it looks like I should provide a little more information. First, I am not using my greenhouse solely for conifers, I have tropicals and many other plants in my greenhouse. So, I have to keep the temps at 45 deg. I can't afford to heat it anymore more than that. It is very expensive during mid winter to heat the sucker.

Sluice, that is precisely what I meant...skip the dormancy period. It sounds as though that is not an option and I need to move them all out of my greenhouse into our unheated Quonset. Drats..that will be a chore but I will get that done immediately tomorrow. Thanks for that advice. I will definitely let you know how it goes. You may hear me crying if things don't go well.

I knew that I would be able to use the same understock the next year if the graft did not take. I hope I can do it right the first time around. ha ha

Dax, I still have time to get them into dormancy for 6 weeks. No problem. I will not be grafting until end of January beginning of Feb. I will move all the understock out of the gh tomorrow.

I already have heat mats and will provide bottom heat. I'm not 100% sure how I will tent my conifers. My greenhouse has a lot of humidity because I built a large pond in it. This really keeps the humidity high. Do you think I will still need to tent my plants? So it sounds like the grafts need to stay dry but as humid as I can get it? I guess I can place my grafts in my plastic totes on top of the heat mats and drape a thick clear plastic over all of them. This will hold in the heat and provide even more humidity. Do you think that will be sufficient?

Here is an example of one of the benches in my gh that I made. I will be placing my heating mats on that bench and then cover with a thick clear plastic. This is a photo of the first year I had my gh. ha ha. I wish it was still that bare and clean. I got carried away planting seeds for a few years.

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Thank you so much for all the information regarding how much moisture the plants need. I will keep them only damp...not wet or moist. That is good advice and glad you said something or I would have ruined ALL my grafts. I will be grafting pines 2, 3 & 5 needle, firs, spruce and larches.

The grafting part I think I will be fine with...it will be after grafting care that I'm terrified of. Ok, keep temps below 90 deg. That will not be a problem up north here. Our company sent most of us home to save money so I work from home. This won't be a problem to monitor, but it is excellent advice to know about so that I watch that. You are wonderful for taking the time to share all these things with me.

Ladylotus,

That's a great looking set-up, and you've got some nice trees out there too! Those windows will let in a lot of light, which really helps.

The tote and plastic cover should work, that's how I do mine. It makes it easy to move the plants around too. In my dry basement, the moisture generated by the plants themselves is enough to keep the humidity up within the chamber. The fresh air exchange that Dax mentions is key. I usually lift the plastic off once a day to get that done (leaving it off for 5 minutes seems to be plenty). If your greenhouse is already humid, you might be able to get away with putting small holes in the plastic, and doing the exchange less often. It's a balance between fresh air and keeping the area contained enough to keep the humidity high.
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Hi,

I would in your case cut a large enough piece of clear poly to cover your grafts and drape all the way to the floor over the benches with extra poly bunching up on the ground. Then follow my previous advice (and Nate's) regarding any excessive water droplets on the plants or the poly. Keep the poly covering the grafts on all the way until spring. There's really no need to remove it. One last thing I'm thinking of is after the understocks push significant growth be sure to get your pruners ready to clip a lot of that growth off to allow more light to the scions. This time period is approximately mid-way thru.

Since you'll be keeping temps at 45 the process of knitting/sweating the union will simply take more time. This is no problem whatsoever as long as adequate light is supplied for the grafts. Lower temps are fine but I wouldn't go any lower than 45.

Dax

Sluice, thank you for sharing the photos. That is very helpful to see what others are doing. I'm getting so excited to start working on my grafting. I moved all my plants to an unheated Quonset this morning before our Thanksgiving guests came. I feel so much better know they are truly going to go dormant now.

Dax, Thank you for all the information you've provided. I'm thinking that draping the plastic over the entire table might be the best way for me to keep that one area high in humidity and possibly even keep the temps up a little higher due to the heating mats.

I know you say to keep the water droplets off the plants and the plastic. However, doesn't that moisture help keep the scion from drying out? What are you finding that happens when you have the excess moisture on the plastic and plants?

I really appreciate everyone's advice. I will be following all your great information.

Ladylotus, here's my take on water droplets, and Dax may have some suggestions too.
In my chambers, water droplets form on the sides of the totes, and on the upper part of the poly bag.
There is also some moisture (or even a bit of standing water) on the bottom of the tote, from watering the plants.
The thing that concerns me most is the droplets that form on the upper part of the bag, since they can drop down onto the plants.
So, when I do the fresh air exchange, I shake the bags out to get rid of those droplets.
The reason being, if the droplets fall onto the plant (mainly the foliage), that's when mold can start to become more of a problem.
In other words, I try to prevent the foliage and bark of the plants from becoming wet.
The sides and bottoms of the container I'm not too worried about, because I usually wipe them down first with lysol or equivalent, and have never had a problem with mold growing there.
But once mold starts forming on the foliage, then I have to start spraying Physan (which I'd rather not do).
So what I try to do is create a highly humid environment, but also keep water droplets off the plants.
Another thing we haven't talked about yet is grafting seal, which you may already be familiar with.
I just started using Doc Farwell's last year, taking a cue from Dax, and it seems to have improved my takes. I suspect it helps retain tissue hydration at the union, thus allowing the cambium to knit more easily.

You don't want any water droplets on the plants whatsoever. The way my tenting chamber is built I like Nate have accumulated water below the pots and the heat mats turn that water into steam (during watering and after until it all becomes dissipated). That's the most critical time for me to monitor the plants & the walls for additional water droplet, accumulation.

Where I have to disagree with Nate is that it is not O.k. to have poly walls and ceilings full of droplets and they/the poly should be wiped dry.

As to Doc Farwell's seal, it can only be ordered when shipping temperatures are above freezing or the stuff will be ruined by the time it gets to your home. I use that stuff to seal wounds where I may have cut into the understock and need a quick bandage. On rare occasions I may add it after I've wrapped & tied the budding strip if I feel it necessary, for instance, if the top of the wrapped area isn't flush with: scion and understock. So I'll dabble that stuff on to seal a hole.

All in all you don't want water anywhere near the graft union/working area and for Nate using Doc Farwell's it's very likely the grafting seal is upping his results as he's not keep his poly dry. All I know is that when I see droplets forming it's time to open the bags and dry them and allow the foliage to dry again, also.

Regards-

Dax
P.s. So yes, were discussing both mold and rot. Too much water on the union and both will occur.

Thank you so much both of you, for your assistance. I feel like I understand the post grafting process SO much better now. I have everything ready and come end of Jan and Feb it will be very interesting around here.

I will keep you guys informed on how it goes. Will you both share your grafting experiences this winter too?

Where do you all get your scion from?

Thanks.

Yep, it's a lot of fun, and a great way to add to your collection.

I get scion from trees near where I live, which might be in forests, parks, cemetaries, residences, etc, and also from other folks through the mail (I sent you an email through gardenweb with additional details, please let me know if you don't receive it).

Yep, I too did following sluice/Nate's offer of scionwood for you.

Dax

I did not get your emails. But, I would be willing to trade scionwood if you would email me...dakotadaylilies@hotmail.com.

ladylotus,
I hope that when you moved your plants to the Quonset hut that they where not to tender or, that it was not to much of a sudden change to the cold side for them. Your temps right now should be getting very cold at night that far north. Bringing a plant from a warm area to a hard freeze that sudden will not be good for the plant. If they had been outside going into the fall they would have be exsposed to a slow cooling down and not that sudden change.
I grow my understock outside on a weedmat for the summer and let them out until we have had a number of freezing nights to shut the growth down.
Here, I just brought in my understock into a unheated greenhouse in the last couple of weeks. Some placed on the unheated floor and some on the benches where the heat has not been turned on yet. I also put some into another unheated greenhouse for bringing in later if neaded.
Soon in December I will turn on the bottom heat on, one bench at a time. Air temp in the house will set to 45 degrees and bottom heat at 65 degrees. They are in tents with tapered sides so the plastic holds itself in and does not need strips to hold it in. I have used steel rods for my hoops. On the corners of these I just use clip type clothes pins to hold the plastic from lifting up. It cheap and it works.
You have been here with Gary W. a couple of years ago and seen my setup. Let me know if I can help any more.
Conifer crazy in Iowa,
Dennis

Dennis,

Yes, I was at your place with Gary. I'm not really sure what to do about moving my understock Dennis. As I already moved them out into the Quonset. We did have some very nice temperatures since I put them out the night temps were in the 30's and the next 10 day forecast is showing a fluctuation between the teens and 20's. Also, my greenhouse does get into the low 40's in the evenings. My Larix were almost all dormant already and I'm hoping the rest will be ok too. I will go out and check tomorrow to make sure they are alright. But I assume I won't see anything negative for a couple months. Drats!

I do plan on just draping my bench in plastic. I hope I have success.

I think I have everything ready. The only thing I need is some large rubber bands. I was using a product called splicing tape for my fruit tree grafts but I think I will use the large bands instead. Maybe I will try a few grafts with the splicing tape to see how that holds up vrs the bands.

Dennis my friend...I am ready and excited to get started in Feb.