Ball, Bernardin and the NCHFP do offer the most up-to-date safe-tested recipes. But there's no "canning police" from Ball going from house-to-house inspecting your preserves. Do what you want.

The current Ball Blue Book recipe for Mustard Pickles thickens with flour. The Ball Complete Book of Home Preserving also offers a recipe for Mustard Pickles. That one is thickened with ClearJel. My guess is that in the next edition of the BBB the flour will be replaced there as well.

Both recipes are higher in vinegar than yours (thus less dense even with thickening).

Carol

I use Clear Jel as the thickener for my mustard pickles. My last two batches came out really well with it. Many old recipes still mention flour, but its been found to be a very unstable thickener by todays standards. The words 'modified food starch', are clearly evident in many commercial foods that are thickened today. That modified starch is none other than Clear Jel. There are many new versions too, and one is very stable at freezing temperatures, and is called Freezer Flo. When I make my next batch of mustard pickles, I need to presoak the cuke pieces in soe salt and vinegar to shrink them a little. They tend to exude a lot of water and will usually shrink enough where you end up with a lot more of the mustard in each jar than the vegetables. I use cauliflour and small onions in my mustard pickles, and add a few chunks of sweet red peppers. Not only that, I like a stronger mustard taste, so I use some ground up brown mustard seeds with they yellow ones, as they have a LOT more flavor compared to the yellow ones alone. Be sure to add a couple of cut up cloves of garlic too. I even add ground celery seed to mine, which rounds out the flavor. Heck, the mustard alone is great on everything.

ksrogers - You said, "I need to pre-soak the cuke pieces in soe salt and vinegar to shrink them a little.". What is soe salt?

How much ClearJel - what ratio instead of flour? Do I have to make it up and stir until it "looks right"? LOL
The recipe says to "cook to thicken slightly". Does it continue to thicken when it is put in BWB? As I said this recipe does not have a BWB time either. I've not used ClearJel before.

This recipe calls for sweet red peppers, yellow onions and cukes chopped finely brined over night, kept whole - pearl onions, cauli-flowerettes and gherkins brined over night then all added to the hot vinegar/sugar and spices for further heating. It also calls for dry mustard, not seeds, but I like the flavor of ground seeds so much better and I can control it rather than have the brine muddied up with undissolved powder. I am not sure the cloves will add the right taste combo I am looking for and I think garlic would get lost in the cider vinegar. I always use celery seed in pickles - that's the special flavor that stays with you after you eat a pickle.

Would you recommend that I increase the vinegar amount? I do test the pH for each batch I make at the end of processing.

readinglady - I know they don't come knocking for the average home-canned foods for family and friends, but since I will be selling this at my farmer's market, many government agencies get involved with the control of food products SOLD in the US. I do have my certification for processing Acid and Acidified Foods from the FDA and my well is tested yearly. No one can sell home-pressure canned foods in the US, and my kitchen must be inspected by my State's Dept of Ag when I first begin and then at their whim. It does get complex when you want to sell the good stuff you can.

Thanks.
Nancy

I agree, Ball doesn't tell us what we can or can't can, only what has been tested as safe to can. We can use our own judgment and do as we please, take whatever risks we feel are acceptable to us personally. It's that personal responsibility thing....

I'm not much help in this instance, however, because I've never thickened a pickle with anything, not even ClearJel (which I don't really like because of the gelatinous goo/icky texture it creates).

I understand, however, that all recipes aren't necessarily rejected because they are unsafe, but because the quality is inferior, which is why they took the information for canning rutabagas out of some canning guides.

I definitely agree with the BWB, though, and my B&B pickles call for 15 minutes, as does my sweet relish recipe, so I think 15 minutes is right, that's what I'd use.

Happy Canning.

Annie

I do see some problems as you've described the recipe, particularly now that you've indicated it's for sale. I'm not trying to be snarky, just sharing some concerns.

Your recipe is extremely dense due to the thickening. I can't speculate as to an appropriate processing time as the density and the size of the container will affect heat penetration. I would speculate it would be longer than for a conventional pickle, but by how much I don't know.

There's a foodsafety group on google mainly frequented by food scientists and others in the field. I was startled to read a comment in a discussion about high-acid mixtures that really gave me pause. The poster said one problem is that low-acid pockets can occur in a high-acid product, providing a congenial "harbor" for botulism. If the product is blended and pH tested, this issue won't show up, but it is nevertheless a very real possibility.

So, high density plus low acid veggies and the possibility that vinegar and heat won't penetrate the entire mixture can lead to risk. What that risk is I have no idea. I just know it exists.

As Ken mentioned, ClearJel is more stable. It also allows for more effective heat penetration.

Both Ball recipes are the same except for the thickener. One recipe is 1/2 cup flour and the other is 4 tablespoons ClearJel. But whether that ratio could safely be applied to other recipes I don't know. There are a lot of variables with your recipe compared to theirs.
Carol

readinglady - I don't think you are being snarky at all - I did ask the question on this open forum and do want to hear everyone's answers / concerns / knowledge / guesses / etc.

ksrogers and annie1992 - Thanks for the info on ClearJel. I feel better about knowing its reaction to heating and a ratio. I may just leave it out and increase the vinegar for a less dense product, compare the results. I also appreciate reading about what spices Ken added and how. Quite creative!

to all - After considering the possibilities, I believe I will send a finished jar to the NC State Food Science Lab and have it analyzed ($50 is worth it - this mustard pickle is wonderful and unique!). I have taken on the responsibility to offer only good food for sale as I do serving it to my family and friends. It is also the reason I grow using organic methods. Not to be a snob about it, just that we all (including me) ingest a lot of -cides and preservatives and junk from commercially made and grown foods and I don't need to add to that.

Thanks so much.
Nancy

You may want to consider the use of the Clear Jel as a thickner, as that test will conclude the issue. I am not saying to make the mustard as thick as a jar of French's, but at least thicker than a regular pickle juice. With that in mind, and the ease at which you can make the thickness to any amount you prefer, the choice is yours. I would prefer mine a bit thicker, but thats only after samplin a few months lafter it was made. Most all my pickles are made with full strength vinegar, except my salt brine half sours which are refrigerated at all times. All the rest are very tasty, and I do feel that a 5% vinegar is fine for most any I make. If I needed a stronger vinegar someplace, I have 20% here too, which is used very little, but is handy if I find its needed. Because I do use full strength vinegar in most all my pickling, I don't usually process pickles for too long, as they start to cook, and then you get mush in no time. Keep in mind that ascorbic acid, and a few other natural things like salt and vinegar are great, without having to deal with chemicals. Even things like calcium chloride is now accepted as thats what Pickle Crisp is. Pickling lime is now not used much anymore, as its very corrosive. When I dry potatoes for instance they need to be protectedd from oxidation by the use of sulfites. Still used today even after a 100 years. This summr, I plan to grow maybe 3-4 different types of pckling cukes, as they always make for a nice fresh meal. Anyone for a cucumber sandwich with mayo and fresh dill?

Definitely $50 is a good investment for the comfort of knowing (and being able to assure interested customers) that the safety of the recipe has been verified.

If you can keep a valued old recipe "alive" that's a good thing. Let us know how it goes.

Carol

The main reason I was hoping you would use the Clear Jel as a thickener was to show that it is safe to use in pickling. If your able to get a concise test for a canning recipe, and you have total control over the ingredients used, its a great way to see what works and what doesn't. If I had the money and resources here to test my canning at a $50 charge, I would try to push the safety envelope at least to a point where some people may be reluctent to use something like Clear Jel in canning. Up until 5 or so years ago, No one here had ever heard of Clear Jel and those that did use a thickener in something canned did it on their own, taking in to account any possible safety issues. I am not trying to kick at Linda Lou, but even she had not used, or heard of a 'home use' modified food starch, that could be used safely in some home canning, but now she has admitted that it is very useful. Check out Barry Farms and their wide avriety of pie fillings. With my help and suggestions she has also been able to make more healthy canning for a person who was recently diagnosed with diabetes, like myself. This health issue takes on a whole new world of problems to say the least. Here, I don't use recipes very much but have a very god general knowledge about what is in a food, and what is needed for spices or flavorings. A good example is the so-called 'cup for cup' for using Splenda as a sweetener. If I were to use cup for cup as opposed to sugar in a vinegar based brine, that brine would be overly, and chemically way too sweet. Now that I discovered this issue, I use very little Splenda to sweeten a vinegar based brine for making sweet pickles, as it it takes less than 1/4 the amount than sugar would use. I wonder how Annies Salsa would score with that $50 testing procedure? I bet it passes with flying colors!

Ken, I'm sure that $50 testing is very similar to the process used here by the michgian state extension service to test my salsa. I'd sure have spent $50 and saved several years of time, though!

Remember, I pressure canned the stuff for the first few years, until I got the "go ahead" to water bath it.

Annie

At least its nice to know that there are agencies(?) out there that can offer unbiased testing and give us results that can tell us if we are doing things the right way, the safe way or the 'living on the edge' way...

In case anyone is interested in having their precious recipe's product tested (you don't have to live in NC to do this) here is the URL to link to it and the form for submittal. They also offer nutrition information for labeling, but that is not required for farm stand or farmer's market sales.

Nancy

Here is a link that might be useful: Canned Foods Testing - NC State FoodSci

Thanks very much for the link. Occasionally a member will be interested in testing of a hot sauce or other product.

Carol

Nancy ... (Annie, too)
I'm curious about this statement from one of your above posts:
"No one can sell home-pressure canned foods in the US"

Does this mean that if you pressure-canned salsa (as Annie does), you couldn't sell it ... but could sell her BWB version?

Kay

Yes, you could sell BWB processed salsa but not home- pressure canned salsa according to the FDA (assuming that the kitchen it was prepared in had been inspected and approved by the State's Dept of Ag or other regulatory body).

I can't locate my student manual at this very moment to site the specifics according to the 21 CFR but I will look for it, I promise. I do know that many in the my class sat up straighter upon hearing that from Dr. John Rushing, the noted authority on Food Safety Science in NC. We all thought that pressure canning was a higher degree of safety than BWB but the FDA says "not".

My memory is that home-pressure canners are not regulated by any agency and that dials/gauges are not tested yearly as they are should be and therefore can't be verified/approved = not enough field officers to do so and no rules in place, so there is no way to "regulate" the non-existent regulations and therefore they have banned home-pressure canning food sales across the board, with no exceptions. If you have a commercial kitchen, there are very different rules, but, as a home canner for markets and such, we have to abide by commercial rules= no differentially. Since none exist for pressure canners, products are banned from being sold. Go figure.

My view is that if a home-pressure canner is not able to be "certified as safe and at temperatures to ensure the safety of the product offered to the consumer" because they don't have the staff to regulate it, and so is banned from being offered for sale, it means that they are in control of what we can can and sell. I really agree with them on that point. Unless there is a law that says we have to do x or y, just anyone can stack up a row of jars filled with who knows what that have been "preserved" by means of an untested pressure canner that shows the right dial number but may be several degrees off true, thus introducing the general public to possible botulism toxins, let alone bacteria and mold.

Nancy

With a pressure canner with a wighted gauge on it, the amount of pressure is controlled much more accuratly compared to a dial. Weights simply don't change, and cannot go out of calibration in any way. With this in mind and the actual physics involved to control pressure using a weight standard, I would expect that any person using a pressure canner, and following the heating, time, and venting procedures properly would meet any US guidlines as to safty, no matter what was canned.

KSrogers- you and I agree on that point. Home canning using a weighted gauge or tested dial gauge pressure canner is really the only safe way to can low-acid foods for home use or gifting but the FDA still says you can't sell it.

BTW I can't sell refrigerated foods or frozen foods at market either. So much for my horseradish sauce and strawberry freezer jam. I can only sell "shelf stable foods" (does not need refrigeration, freezing, or maintaining a heated temperature before consuming). That leaves me to only be able to offer dried foods, baked goods, BWB canned acid and acidified foods for sale, and in my state (maybe the US?) I have to have been certified in the FDA's Better Process School for processing acid and acidified foods to sell.

Nancy

Sooooo, Nancy

if you want to sell it .... there are canning police (in the form of the FDA and, in your case, the State of North Carolina.)

Do they really come around checking your home (after the initial inspection) and/or farmers' markets? If so, they're doing a better job than is done inspecting things coming in from overseas. Do you have to show that certification, etc., before the folks running the farmers' markets let you in.

I really like buying "home"-canned stuff from local folks, but do confess to a bit of uneasiness about HOW it was canned. Maybe now, I'll know the questions to ask before buyng.
Kay

Nancedar,
Suggest you try meat curing. I make a really mean pepporoni and salami. Both are dry air cured after a very slow warming up to about 145 degrees for a few hours. They hang for a month or more in my house and then get put in the fridge. They don't need to be there, but I feel because its cured meat it should have no safety issues. Jerky is yet another option. You can easily make strawberry jam without using a freezer method. Even for that a low/no sugar version which works very well with the Pomona pectin. For horseradish, it could probably be safe enough if it had plenty of vinegar added, but that tends to make it milder. Thats one reason they sell the prepared horseradish in the refrigerator section of the supermarket like the half sour pickles and whole green tomatoes (aka. Claussen).

kayskats - Yes, the "police" do show up at farmer's markets and farm stands, the state Dept of Ag can show up anytime (and have for several other vendors) to do a "surprise" inspection at your home kitchen, and yes, I do have to show my certification before I can sell at my quite small market (less than 30 vendors on any Saturday). The state also shows up to ensure that weighing scales have been calibrated within the last year, but that is another story. If you are caught selling BWB canned acidified foods when you do not have the cert. or are selling other stuff you shouldn't be (low acid, pressure canned, refrigerated, etc.), the Dept of Ag and the FDA could inflict very severe penalties on you and your market. We homegrown sellers have to follow pretty much what the rules are for commercial operations. One size fits all, US wide, but some states have lesser rules for farm stands and farmer's markets than my state does. Best to check with your Cooperative Extension office in your county and if they don't know, go on to your State Dept. of Ag. One comment one of my co-student's made was that if he didn't know what the rules were he would be safe from penalties. I don't think I'd buy anything from him, would you? Yes, please ask the sellers HOW their stuff was processed and if their kitchen was inspected, etc. We are consumers and should protect ourselves from bad stuff we might ingest. I even walk out of restaurants with a food grade less than "A".

ksrogers - I think dry cured meats are regulated by another mega agency, the USDA. One of the vendors at my market raises cattle and hogs for cuts of meat he sells. He threw up his hands at the regs for slaughtering, curing, and/or freezing and now has a co-packer do it for him and THEY have to handle the USDA inspections and process filings which are really intense. >>I wouldn't go so far as to say that cured meat has no safety issues, because they do!Yes, I know, I make regular strawberry jam that is heated, but sadly it is not nearly as tasty as freezer jam.

Horseradish, a low acid food, is not exactly stable and the pH acidification cannot be measured outside a food science lab according to my instructor, and that is why I can't sell it. It is not heated or pasteurized to eliminate bacterias, molds, and toxins, and "sealing" only means screwing on the cap. Refrigeration and acidification keep it stable and unable to grow the bad stuff because of refrigeration. That is also why it is sold refrigerated and you are admonished on the label to keep it refrigerated after opening. Commercial processors ship in refrigerated trucks from refrigerated manufacturing and storage facilities, and they go directly to the refrigerated section of the grocery store. That is something that can't be duplicated in a home processing environment or at an open-air market. Also, adding more vinegar doesn't necessarily make it safer because we can't measure the pH of the horseradish's vegetable interior at home, and with pH meters and test strips all we are doing is measuring the vinegar's pH.

BTW - shelf stable jams and jellies are exempt from these regs because they have low water activity and a low pH. Since they are also packed at high temperatures, they are not likely to harbor harmful food borne illness organisms. Molds are the most likely bad thing to form but that is usually from not having sterilized the jars or not heating the lids enough (or, dirty hands packing them, airborne dust in a room with a fan, using overly ripe or moldy fruit, etc. etc.). I can sell as many variations of jelly and jam as I want at market. Without a cert. but with a kitchen inspection.

Nancy

I bet my pepperoncini peppers would be banned. They get no heat process of any kind. Instead, they get pickled in full 5% strength white vinegar and pickling salt. I pierce each with a small hole and the batches are placed in a large gallon sized container that is vacuum tight Its filled with the vinegar brine and is pumped down for several minutes, then air is let back in, more liquid is added, and pumped on again with a strong vacuum pump. After they show no more signs of bubbling, or loss of liquid, they are placed in jars with fresh brine, and are pumped on again. After a few additional topping off fillings of brine the lid is placed between the jar and the vacuum adaptor (FS one). Its pumped on again and then I remove the vacuum line from the adaptor and this forces a blast of air above the lid, that pushes it shut. The lids are concave and are very firmly fitted on the jars, and are just like they are when a heat process is done. I rinse off the outside and add a ring. These are the ONLY things I can that way and its worked very well. If I were to try ad hear process these, they would never be edible as they would all be green mush. I do not use teh FS pump, however, as its just not powerful enough. Mine is a very strong diaphram type with a bit moistore trap colector, in case any liquid wants to get pulled out through the vacuum line. The pump is so powerful, it can easily crack the thick plastic FS rectangular canisters, as I have broken three so far, afer just a single use.

How do i know when the sauce is thick enough? Im using Clear Jel but it only says "simmer until thickened"