This is my understanding...

Botulism thrives in a "NO oxygen environment.
In fermenting pickles at room temp, there's still oxygen.
In a sealed (BWB canned) jar, there isn't.

Find a tested recipe for fermented pickles and I think you'll like the results (if you're looking for a crisp, sour pickle).

Lot's of things were done "back then" that were not safe. They just didn't know it and survived the odds. Some people probably died and the science (or desire to investigate) wasn't there to determine why.
Please use an approved recipe. It's sure easier on the mind!!

Deanna

It's not a dumb question. I'm sure a lot of Forum members will have their own insights to contribute. Here's an abbreviated version.

1. Fermentation is a very specific process during which lactic acid forms naturally. So while it's true pickles in a salt brine don't have vinegar, they do have acid, just in a different form.

Not only that, but if you read through some of the previous posts about natural fermentation, it can be rather tricky. You have to be extremely careful about salt proportions and you have to monitor cleanliness, the state of the cucumbers at various stages of the process and the ambient temperature, among other things. There are many ways for fermentation to go wrong. Pickles can spoil and can produce rather nasty molds.

2. Many people aren't aware that originally (going back more generations than your grandmother) many of these old pickle recipes with less vinegar and more water actually used considerably stronger vinegar than you can buy now. So it may be that it's not 50-50, but if you're using 10% even up to 20% vinegar as opposed to 5% vinegar it's not the equation you think it is.

3. Pickles sitting in a vinegar-water mixture, with or without spices, are not fermenting. They do season, and during that process liquid leaches out of the cucumbers, weakening the vinegar solution further. So if it's not strong enough initially to compensate there can be problems.

4. A BWB can make things worse rather than better if the formula for the pickles isn't inherently safe. If you have pickles that are lower-acid than they need to be and then you seal them in a vacuum at temperatures insufficient to kill botulism spores, that's a problem.

What it comes down to is your personal priorities. All we can do is give our take on things. But you decide. So if you value the pickles as they are and don't wish to change, that's up to you. However, we can't tell you it's a good idea.

The main reason is the fermentation to lactic acid is quite high for a salt water brine, once the cukes and cabbage ferment. The acid level is much higher than a 50:50 ratio of vinegar to water.

And one other consideration. An additional concern with fermented pickles (other than botulism) is listeria.

And "room temperature" isn't entirely accurate as cool storage during the fermentation process is recommended in all the recipes I have used.

So as Carol said, it is basically your choice. If you can get the strength vinegar that Grandma used, great, but also keep in mind that it isn't the ratio of vinegar to water that makes pickles soft and mushy. Lots of us make great, non-mushy pickles using the current standards. ;)

Dave

I believe its the canning heat when jars are filled and placed in a BWB that makes the cukes initially soft. I do know that if I were to try making my delicate pepperoncini pickles using a BWB, they would be total mush even if they were orignally cold packed. Listeria and/or Botulism cannot easily survive in high acid, which is also produced by fermenting into lactic acid. Years ago, home vinegar strength used to be about 20%, but today, its usually at 5%, which would definately require a higher ratio of vinegar to water. In fact, I choose not to use any water in my vinegar salt brines and cut down processing time by half or more. The jars are filled with boiling brine however. People try my full strength vinegar and salt brine pickled pepperoncini and say it contains sugar, but it doesn't have any kind of added sweetener of any kind. The pepperoncini I make are done similar to a commercial vacuum process. To also help to retain crispness, you can add some of the substitute for Ball Pickle Crisp. Its basically food grade calcium chloride which helps to bufffer the acidity and breakdown effect of vinegar on cukes. They also use it when canning whole tomatoes to help them retaun their shape. The CCis available from Bulk Foods, and the amount needed per jar as been discussed in many other threads here.

In all my years and my mom and her parents, we all made half sour dills the same way and I am the only one who refrigerates the jars once they are slightly fermented. My grandmothers pickles would only last a few days, so she would make more, once the level dropped in the jar. Once in a while a white scum formed, so she took out the pickles and refrigerated them, and cleaned out the jar, made a new batch of salt brine and started more cukes the day after.

Before mine get in the fridge, I add about a tablespoon or two of vinegar to the 1/2 gallon jars. This helps to stablize them and stop any further fermenting under refrigeration.

Thanks to all of you who took the time to answer my question. I just wanted to get your input on this important matter and I am glad that I did. I think that I now have a much clearer picture and am very greatful to all of you for helping me to understand. I will be sure to can safely. One question, if I decide to use my grandmother's recipe, can I make it safe by just making sure to use a 50/50 vinegar to water ratio? Her recipe calls for 1 quart vinegar and 3 quarts water, so to make it safe I would have to use 3 quarts vinegar and 3 quarts water. Do you think that adding 2 more quarts of vinegar to that recipe will change the flavor very much? I just want the pickles to taste as good as hers by the time they are ready to eat.

We can't answer that question without seeing the recipe. Even then we may not be able to give a definitive answer, but at least it improves the odds. It may be we know of a version of that recipe that's already been updated to current standards. There isn't much that's "new" in the world of pickles. It's an ancient art.

Carol

Yeah if you'll post the entire recipe we can help.

Dave

lisa-regina, you could try adapting the vinegar ratio and see what you think of the taste - I did that with an old pickle recipe though and it did change them noticeably.

The brine for the passed down recipe I had been using was 1 qt vinegar, 3 qts water, 1 C salt. I tried making the pickles using 2 qts vinegar, 2 qts water (and the salt) after it was pointed out to me that todays vinegar isn't the same acidity it was was for those old recipes - but it just wasn't the same dill pickle taste we'd enjoyed. Still have it in my recipe folder but I don't use it.

Today, a 50:50 ratio is not safe for any pickles. Because the vinegar is diluted further, its only at 2.5%, while years ago, a 50:50 would have given you at least a 7%-10% vinegar. Adding salt to vinegar will tame it a lot, provided its not overdone. Also, adding a little sugar wiill reduce the vinegar taste. Using mellow vinegars like apple cider, will still be at 5%, but have less of an impact on acid taste. Here, I dont add any water to any of my brines, unless its the half sour one thas made from water and salt only. With the right proportions, the water and salt will have an acid taste (lactic) similar to vinegar once its fermented a while. 1 qt vinegar to 3 quarts water is a LOT lower than a 50:50 ratio! 3 qts of each, will give you back that same unsafe 50:50 ratio. If it were 20% vinegar, the 1qt to 3 qts water would give you about 7% acidity, but no one sells 20% expect for home use. Heinz has it, and supplies pickle makers the 20% in 55 gallon drums. If you insist on wanting to add water to the vinegar, it would be better to mix 3 qts of vinegar to 1qt of water. Also TASTE while adding PICKLING SALT, as it can be very different if you use Kosher salt. Using the full 5% stength is the safest way to go and with the added salt, I am sure your pickles would be as tasty as your grandmothers.

Lisa, you can go ahead and use half 5% acidity vinegar and half water and be safe !!
Fermenting does make it's own acid to preserve the cukes. In a fresh pack pickle, the vinegar is added to provide the acid necessary for the low acid cucumbers. They don't ferment, they are packed raw into the jars and processed.
Salt is necessary for fermenting, but, for a fresh pack pickle, it is optional. It would be only for flavor.
We still have plenty of safe recipes using 50/50% vinegar to water ratio. You should keep current with the USDA recipes and methods so you can point people in the right direction. Check any of the extension sites and you will see. Some other veggies, not cucumbers may have a higher amount, though. I just taught a class on safe pickle making last night.
The processing has been tested and proven to actually keep the pickles more crisp. It is because it destroys the enzymes that cause spoilage, deterioration, and bacteria. Processing is a good thing. It doesn't make them soft.
Using fresh picked cukes is the main key. That, and I also like calcium chloride.
Hey, even this recipe from USDA isn't even as strong as 50/50, yet safety tested. It depends upon whether garlic, etc. is added to the jars, plus other amounts of fresh dill that makes the difference. Adding garlic would make this one unsafe. You would need more vinegar if garlic was included.

Here is a link that might be useful: Safe dill pickles, even less than half vinegar to water ratio.

I did some research last night on safe pickling and am overwhelmed by all the different opinions conserning pickling saftey. Some say that 50/50 vinegar to water ratio is safe and others say it isn't safe enough. One website in particular states that 1 part vinegar to 3 parts water is safe. I think that I am now more confused than ever before! Maybe I am reading it wrong, just in case you would like to get a look at that website yourselves here is the link:
http://solutions.psu.edu/Food_Preparation_Safety_Storage_308.htm

I'm really surprised to also find out that garlic can cause or inhibit botulism growth. I was always told in the herb world that garlic had anti-viral, anti-bacterial, and anti-fungal qualities. People even use it when ill for those reasons, therefore I didn't think any germ, bacteria, or virus could survive in garlic. If anything I would have thought that adding garlic would actually ward off botulism or any other bacteria lurking around, making the pickles even safer. I am sure glad that was cleared up for me as well, it has been quite a learning experience. Thanks to all of you for the valuable information shared, you all may have just saved a life or the lives of my family members without even realizing it. I am indebted to all...Thanks again...Lisa

To further confuse things, for every "rule" there's bound to be an exception. One notorious recipe is for peppers marinated in bottled lemon juice and oil then canned. That is a perfectly safe recipe tested to achieve sufficient acidity to compensate for the oil. But it took some skilled lab work to develop it.

People working at the NCHFP and the Extension services carefully test recipes to arrive at optimal safety AND optimal flavor. If they can find a safe way to process a pickle with less vinegar, they will do it. But those recipes are lab-tested and verified.

The difficulty is when people pack cucumbers too tight in the jars, use jars of a larger size than the recipe calls for, use lower-acid vinegar, fudge on the processing time (start counting before the water's up to temp), add ingredients the recipe doesn't call for (i.e. garlic or hot peppers or fresh herbs) then you can have problems. Canning recipes have to be pretty precise.

Garlic is healthy. So are a lot of other low-acid veggies. But when you seal garlic in an anaerobic environment (i.e. no air) then you create the conditions things like botulism enjoy. Botulism spores like warmth (but not pressure canner temperatures), low acid and lack of air. That's why it was mentioned that some vegetables require a higher % than 50-50. It just depends.

When you can a pickle one important thing is not to pack the food too tightly in the jar. You want plenty of acid swirling around those low-acid foods.

Carol

Lisa, I am current on my food preservation safety training. This is what I do. I teach all methods of food preservation at my local county extension, as well as public classes. I am certified to teach.
So, yes, half vinegar/half water for cucumber pickles is correct. Other vegetables may vary. Any less than the 50/50, other than the recipe I sent the link for is not enough. It is nearly the same ratio, though.
Carol explained about the garlic being in the absence of air that makes the difference. She has posted some really good information for you. As long as the ph or acid level is right, sometimes garlic may be added. However, it should never be added unless called for and use in the amounts called for. It is an exact science.
The only changes you can safely make would be to add some DRY herbs and spices. It is due to something called "water activity", that allows for the dried to be added.
Keep asking questions, this is how you will learn.

The 50:50 would be unsafe for higher density things like pickling whole garlic cloves. There, I use it full 5% strength. If you don't like acid, then you wil not like most pickles of any kind.

ksrogers, I love sour pickles and they are actually my favorite. I don't mind high acid, but I was afraid of mushy, soft pickles, since I have read somewhere before that the vinegar breaks down the pickle unless using calcium chloride to counteract the process. I was going to buy some calcium chloride, but shipping and handling is outrageous. I wasn't planning on pickling enough to buy it in bulk. My other issue is that my grandmother's pickles were my favorite in the world and now I can't have them anymore, because the vinegar companies went and messed everything up by changing the strength that is sold to the public. This kind of ticks me off, because they know people still want to pickle and a higher grade is needed to safely do it. Not to mention people do not want to have to stop making their favorite childhood pickle recipes handed down from generation to generation. I would rather the vinegar companies sell high grade vinegar to the public for us picklers and have to pay more for it and be able to enjoy our favorite pickle recipes, than to not be able to have them at all. Vinegar companies need to bring back our vinegar, they can sell the 5% and still make and sell 20% for us picklers. I am highly upset that I will never be able to eat grandma's pickles again. Yes, I am whining..sorry can't help myself...Lisa

am overwhelmed by all the different opinions conserning pickling saftey. Some say that 50/50 vinegar to water ratio is safe and others say it isn't safe enough. One website in particular states that 1 part vinegar to 3 parts water is safe. I think that I am now more confused than ever before

Your confusion about all this is quite common so don't feel alone. It is the main reason we strongly encourage those not trained to understand all the "exact science" aspects of canning to stick with tested and approved recipes only. That way you KNOW the food is safe for you and your family.

With experience and training (readily available to most) you can come to know and understand all the ins and outs, what changes can and cannot be made, and how various foods and liquids interact with each other to make food safe or unsafe. For example, why garlic can inhibit bacterial growth in one situation but only make it worse in another.

And on the "others say..." please keep in mind that there is a lot of info out there and the source of that info has to be credible - many aren't. Many folks will "say" something is safe simply because, right or wrong, they have always done it that way and are still alive to tell about it. Maybe they have just been lucky rather than safe. ;)

Dave

I appreciate all the advise and wisdom from all of you on this forum. It is nice to have all of you to come to when us newbie canners need advise or help. Dave, you hit the nail on the head when you said that people may be alive today, more from luck than safe canning practices. I have been canning unsafely for a while now and didn't even know it. None of my family are dead or became ill fortunatly, but I did practice some badddddd canning procedures( my own canning procedures that is!)). I canned salsa in a BWB instead of in a pressure canner, but the dumbest thing that I did was pour 1/4 vinegar to 3/4 water in a jar of hot peppers to pickle them. The worse thing is that I just poured it in and capped the lid, no boiling the brine and no BWB. I was an idiot back then, God sure had his hand on our family. We should all be dead, since my canning skills were horrible. That is why you do not try new things without researching and gaining knowledge of what you're about to attempt, especially when it comes to preserving food. I thought that I knew what I was doing, apparently not!!!!!

There are two kinds of 'sour pickles'. One is made with full strength 5% vinegar with no water added, but also usually includes a little alum, as well as tumeric for yellow color. The other sour pickle is the salt brine type, and they are fermented with usually no added acids. Thats what you see in supermarkets in the refrigerator section. Claussen is one of the biggest offering both sour, and half sours, as well as pickled whole green tomatoes. Most any cuke will soften in an acid brine, no matter what kind it is, BUT you can prolong crispness a little longer by refrigeating them afetr they have been canned and sealed. The Pickle Crisp,, Now calcium chloride.
The 4 ounce amount of CC from Bulk foods is actally cheaper than what Ball Pickle Crisp was sold for.

Here is a link that might be useful: Bulk Foods CC