I think the 15 PSI part may be referring to the higher altitude requirements. Some of the recipes for higher altitudes call for 15 or 15+1 for dials but give you the option of lower pressures for longer times.

As to why anyone would choose to BWB instead - many prefer it because grandma did it this way, some prefer the BWB finished product, and many don't have or want or can't afford the $$ for a pressure canner.

Just my guess. ;)

Dave

Digdirt

If the quality is higher I will certainly switch. No point in using the WB method which takes longer, uses more energy and creates more heat for the A/C to have to deal with.

What will they come up with next? I believe the quality of the tomato is much better using the BWB. I have pressure canned tomatoes and depending on the variety, they can turn to mush. How can the quality possibly be improved? Someone explain, please. I pressure can tomato juice and salsa because they are eaten cold. I think salsa that is BWB is of better quality than pressure canned. I just like mine pressure canned. Carol and Linda Lou, your thoughts please.
Greenhouser, After ready your bottom line I wouldn't trust anything they said.

My thought is that their statement is based on Nutritional quality.

It is commenly accepted that shorter process times cause less vitamin degradation ... even with the increase in temp. The process times for quarts in a BWB is 45 min, for a pressure canner at 15psi is 10 min ... a big difference. Granted the temps are hotter in the pressure canner, by 40-50 degrees or so. But this relatively small increase in temp leads to the 4.5 fold reduction in process time.

However, to Shirly's point, the eating quality may suffer in the pressure canner. Most notably on whole,halved & quartered toms ... probably less so in a crushed type of tom. I typically only can crushed toms, and really don't see that much difference (although it has been a while since I did any BWB).

How extreme is the nutritional loss? IMHO, it is not something we should worry about. Really the same argument applies for eating fresh vs cooked vegs. In this day and age, at least here in the US, most of us are eating way more than enough food to supply the vits we need. And on top of that, many of us are swallowing a vitamin tab every day as well.

Ed

After ready your bottom line I wouldn't trust anything they said.

Not sure what you mean Shirley since it is from the NCHFP site and I think we agree they are quite trustworthy. ;) Tried to direct link but the server is rejecting URL's for some reason today.

greenhouser - "quality" like "taste" is a subjective term so problematic. Best approach is to try it both ways and see which you prefer.

We (our house) tend to prefer the taste and color/appearance of pressure canned whole tomatoes and we like the comfort afforded of longer storage times, less energy useage, less heat, etc. But we are also long-time pressure canners (and cookers) so aren't intimidated by a PC as many are. But we do BWB some tomatoes too and mark the jars accordingly.

For us, it mostly depends on what processing is going on that day. If we are BWB a bunch of other stuff (say the wife gets a jelly/jam run going) and only have a few jars of tomatoes we don't dig out the PC and vice-versa. (you can use the PC as a BWB you know).

And many days both are going full steam so we have stick-up notes posted with the required times on the burner knobs. ;) But if we had to choose - we'd choose the PC for whole tomatoes. JMO

But we also prefer lemon juice rather than citric acid in our tomato juice and if I recall correctly, some here hate it. See the problem? ;)

So, try both and see which you prefer.

Dave

I prefer lemon juice in my tomato juice and plain tomatoes. I also like lemon juice in my salsa. I can't HWB in my pressure canner as it won't hold 2 inches of water over the jars.

Dave,
I forgot this in the previous post.
I was referring to the Recommendation: Use of a pressure canner will result in higher quality and more nutritious canned tomato product. Why would the product be more nutritious. NCHFP, I can disagree if I so choose.

Since I will be canning my toms skinned and mushed into the jars seeds cores and all, I may as well PC them. I don't can ready made sauce. I like to make it fresh each time because we like it a little different each time. When I get done canning toms they kind of look like stewed toms you buy in the can for sauce making.

I seriously doubt the NCHFP is doing nutritional tests on pressure canned tomatoes vs a boiling water bath.

The overall processing time is not that much different if one considers the 10 minutes sitting in the pressure canner as steam vents and the five minutes or so for it to pressurize and the ten or fifteen minutes for it to depressurize.

With similar overall times and the higher temps in the pressure canner I don't see the logic for better nutritional quality in the pressure canner.

I think they may be confusing the benefits of pressure cooking and pressure canning. Boiling vegetables can leach nutrients vs steam cooking in a pressure cooker.

There are a lot of nutrients in vegies. Some may benefit from one processing technique while others may benefit from another technique.

I doubt they are testing for quality. At best it is probably someone's unsupported subjective opinion and doesn't belong on a food science site without additional supporting statements.

Zeuspaul

According to one of my many diet restriction lists. Broccoli has a high potassium level as fresh or cooked. Once blanched, and frozen, the cooked its potassum is much lower. Also, on arecent Alton Brown Good Eats show, he also stated that microwaving broccoli makes it lose essential nutrients, but didn't elaborate on what was lost. I always microwave mine without any added liquid, when I cook it.

I doubt they are testing for quality. At best it is probably someone's unsupported subjective opinion and doesn't belong on a food science site without additional supporting statements.

It would be easy enough to email Dr. Andress at the NCHFP and ask her for documentation.

I can certainly understand wondering about the statement re improved nutrition with pressure-canned tomatoes and wanting clarification. But when I read an unsupported statment I don't immediately leap to the equally unsupported conclusion that it's invalid.

I notice on the Kentucky extension site a statement re pressure canning of tomatoes that "A somewhat [italics mine] better quality product with higher nutritive value can be obtained this way. Somewhat implies that while there is a measurable difference, it's not a big one. My first thought is the possibility that pressure canning removes more of the air from the jars. Since air is a source of degradation of the contents, less air means less degradation.

I also understand from a study in 2000 Effect of Temperature and/or Pressure on Tomato Pectinesterase Activity from the Department of Food and Microbial Technology at Katholieke Universiteit Leuven that at least one enzyme beneficial to retention of such qualities as texture is thermally labile (meaning it changes in a boiling water bath) but is pressure resistant. So apparently there are certain benefits to pressure canning.

Much of the research alluded to on the NCHFP site was done years ago by the USDA and/or related agriculture programs. Going back even to 1948 you see published studies like Vitamin C Content Of Home-Canned Tomatoes As Determined By Variety And Method Of Processing.

More recently this study addresses other differences (if any) between boiling water bath and pressure canning of tomatoes. In this case, nutrition was not addressed:

Department of Human Nutrition and Foods, Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University, Blacksburg 24061:

Whole tomatoes were processed in pint and quart jars by home-canning, raw pack methods in a boiling-water bath or at pressures of 5, 10, or 15 p.s.i.g. (pounds per square inch as measured by gauge) to a minimum internal end-point temperature of 82C (180°F). Thermocouples placed in the coldest point in the jars and attached to a recording potentiometer were used to establish the times for processing by the 3 pressure treatments. USDA recommended times were used for processing in a boiling-water bath. The products from the four different treatments were analyzed and compared subjectively for color, flavor, texture, and acidity; and objectively for color, firmness, drained weight, acidity, and ascorbic acid content. Time and energy usage were also recorded and compared. No significant differences were found for any of the quality characteristics except color. However, the significant difference in color indicated by the sensory panel and an objective calculation from Hunterlab Color Difference Meter Measurements could not be attributed to processing treatments. There were differences in the amount of time involved and the kilowatt hours used in the canning procedures. Home-canning by any pressure method saved time and energy and yielded products comparable to those processed in a boiling-water bath.

I'll close with this statement on the NCHFP site which acknowledges areas suitable for further research.

The literature reveals that USDA historically has been and presently is a recognized authority and source of home canning recommendations. The majority of current processes have their origins in research conducted by, or in cooperation with, the Bureau of Human Nutrition and Home Economics, USDA, from 1943-1957. Two large contributors on cooperative projects were the Massachusetts and Texas Agricultural Experiment Stations. Research methods developed from findings in the field of bacteriology and the canning industry, beginning about 1920. Unfortunately, no further research was carried out by USDA since 1957 and published processes have not changed in this time period.

The origins and/or safety of a few products remain uncertain. In addition, current issues also include the influence of newer canner construction on process lethality, relationships between headspace, venting and vacuum with current canning equipment, acid-low acid combination products, the use of 15 psig, and the lack of application of newly discovered spoilage organisms in test packs.

The NCHFP's funding is limited, but within those limits, they do appear to be working on updated research.

Carol

zeuspaul

Even if the nutrition was the same, look at the time and energy saved by PCing the toms.

But when I read an unsupported statement I don't immediately leap to the equally unsupported conclusion that it's invalid.

Exactly my concern, Carol. Given the well established legitimacy and reputation of the source, why would anyone just assume that there is no validity to the statement or even more, "not trust anything else they had to say"? One may choose to disagree with it without labeling it invalid.

Shirley - of course you can choose to disagree with them. I never said otherwise. I just thought you may not have realized the source and was surprised you were throwing the baby out with the bath water there.

But knowing the source, I certainly can't see how one can justify impuning everything they say just because you disagree with them on this relatively unimportant point of nutritional value.

No one is saying you MUST pressure can all tomato products. As I said above, "We (our house) tend to prefer the taste and color/appearance of pressure canned whole tomatoes and we like the comfort afforded of longer storage times, less energy useage, less heat, etc." I can't claim they are higher in nutrition. Don't know and honestly don't care. But I sure wouldn't make the claim that NCHFP is confused, mis-representing, lying, misleading, misinforming, or flat out wrong either. Putting up one's personal opinion against the credentials and standing of the NCHFP is a lost cause from the outset.

So do them however you wish as long as it is within the accepted safety guidelines.

Dave

I just reread my response to greenhouser at the top of this thread. What was I thinking. I do trust what the NCHFP suggests, like processing my dill pickles using the pasteurization method. NCHFP taught me how. I don't mind it taking 30 minutes. Some things are just not clear, referring to another post I responded to regarding when to place the weight on the petcock. I follow the Ball Blue on that one. I apologize for what I said on the top of this thread about not trusting anything The NCHFP says.

When I give baskets of my canned goods to friends, I always include a note stating that all items were processed following USDA guidelines. I can by the book and everyone knows it.
I could not have canned over 700 jars last year without the help of the NCHFP, the Ball Blue Book and the many good folks on this forum, Linda Lou and Carol especially.
This forum is in my favorites and I visit several times a day.
When Ball revamps their Blue Book, I wish they would take the green stems off the tomatoes before they dip them in boiling water.
Don't need to respond to the last statement.

***Even if the nutrition was the same, look at the time and energy saved by PCing the toms.***

I agree energy is saved. Energy is also saved using a pressure cooker. I have several pressure cookers and since I use them more often than I do the canner the energy savings are even greater.

I always pressure can my tomatoes.

I don't agree that it is always a time saver to pressure can. If you are canning more than one load of tomatoes the time savings goes to the boiling water bath.

Using numbers from the Kentucky site for pressure canning. It takes 10 minutes to vent and 45 minutes to depressurize. Add that to a fifteen minute processing time and you have 70 minutes per batch. That is longer than boiling water bath.

Also some boiling water bath canners use very large pots that hold more than 7 quarts. They will run circles around most pressure canners.

I recently purchased a 14 quart pressure canner because of the time pressure canning takes.

I was puzzled by the NCHFP statement a year ago when I first read it. After reading this thread and doing some more research on my own I don't think it is a valid statement without qualification. Some vitamins are destroyed with high heat. Others are not. I believe pressure canning can be better for some nutrients and worse for others.

It does affect the credibilty of their other information if one has doubts. As a stand alone statement it has a potential for contravercy. If they are going to present new info or data that is not well known or documented I believe it would be in their best interest to also provide some supporting documentation.

Zeuspaul

Nothinmg is faster than my steam canner when it comes to high acid pickles and processing them.

zeuspaul

I disagree it takes 45 minutes to depressurize. My old Mirro depressurized in no more than 10 to 15 minutes. You could watch the needle fall once the canner was removed from the burner. Once the canner was "hot" the next batch heated up faster and so saved even more time. Also, while the canner was heating initially, I was getting the batch of food ready and jarring it. I don't think I'll bother water bathing anymore. :)

To: ksrogers

I was just wondering if you're a vegetarian.

No, I am not a vegetarian. Are you a 'degreed doctor' in these health issues, or a 'cerified dietician' with many years of exerience in controlling a persons food intake?? Reading about what you seem to think is the root of these health problems, tells me that the more you state inaccurate info, the deeper your foot goes into your mouth. Get off your soap box and stop acting like you are the most fittest person in the world and everyone else is diseased and will soon die from poor eating complications.

To: ksrogers

No need to be a degreed Dr. or lic. dietition to learn proper nutrition these days. There are many books available in any bookstore and more information about nutrition online than anyone can possibly read. And yes, I am healthy at age 63. I've watched my diet and weight for years.

We now know the root causes of many of our ills. Ills other countries with better diets do not suffer. It's poor diet and inactivity in most cases.

You need to chill out and stop taking the studies personal. Be glad someone out there, the researchers, are studying our health issues and offering us answers that unfortunately too many people don't want to hear.

Some of these people are just too one sided in their assumptions. My brother was most annoying when he was drinking and his mouth started to make noise. Poor diet and exercise are only two minor factors that define a hereditary issue. It seems that when my brother was feeling argumentative, he would start to boast about his ideas and how sane they are. He would even tell you that the dortors are wrong and he was right. Interestily, he read several books about the legal system and when I tried to sue a big company, and was acting as his own lowyer, he lost the case. Look whos talking about chilling out.. It may be time for you to get off the soap box, as some of your statements are very negative, demeaning and one sided. I could care less if you read 1000 books about diets, nutrition, blood sugars, cholesterol, and many other health issues. No two people are alike when it comes to health problems, and no books I know of can solve these issues all by themselves. I see and read all your comments and have to say that many of them are not useful to me or anyone else who might stumble on them. Healthcare in this country is terrible. Medicare should be renamed MEDIKILL, as its exactly what its doing to many millions already. Insurance companies are now controlling the medications we are prescribed. Doctors write up scripts and the insurance denies it, as its 'not part of their formulary'. Who descides what we can take and what we cant as far as medications? Insurance companies are trying to undermine all the doctors. I'm just glad that your not one of those 'researchers', as you could become unbearable.

To: ksrogers

My posts concerning good health and good diet seems to have hit a nerve with you for some reason. The information on why we're the fattest (and becoming the sickest) Nation on earth is out there if you care to find it. It has nothing to do with me or you personally. Try and comprehend that and stop taking it personally.

You can't seem to grasp the point that until the last few generations all these obesity/fat/carb/inactivity related diseases were rare compared to today so are not all hereditary, but caused by diet and lifestyle. An obese mother will most likely have overweight children. Not because she gave them "obesity genes" but because she's feeding them the same obesity causing poor diet she's on.

This is my last reply to you. You insist on taking research personally which I find absurd.

Taking it personally, no, but your making untrue assumptions, and spitting out numbers are not going to show me, or anyone else that you know very much about family history diseases. Its interesting to note that when you visit a doctor for the first time, they always have you fill out forms of disease history in your family. If it were only a 2% concern, the doctors wouldn't bother asking these common questions about, if there is diabetes, cancers, or high cholesterol in your family history.

I canned seven quarts of tomato sauce last night and noted the time. It took 41 minutes to depressurize the Presto canner. That is close to the 45 minutes noted on the Kentucky site linked in a previous post.

If a full size pressure canner loaded with seven quarts is depressurizing in ten or fifteen minutes it is probably leaking steam.

Zeuspaul

Wouldn't depressuring vary, depending on the venting? I would expect that if the weights were removed, it would vent steam for maybe a couple of minutes tops. Of course that also depends on if there is still residual heat applied to the bottom of the caner.

I don't think you're supposed to vent during depressurization. You risk siphoning the product out of the jar due to less pressure on the outside of the jar. Also the time spent in the depressurization phase may be considered part of the processing time. Depressurizing is supposed to be a slow process.

The canner wall thickness, level of liquid inside the canner, number and size of jars, ambient temperature, and drafts may all affect the cooling rate.

Fifteen minutes vs forty minutes seems like a big difference to me. If you vent or the seal leaks the canner could cool down very quickly.

Zeuspaul

I timed my depressurization today on my 930. From 10 psi it took 17 minutes to zero. When it drops below 5 psi I get leaking though the over pressure plug which is normal according to the manufacturer. It's brand new and I get no leaking around the edges. Oh, I had 7 qts in it.

To: zeuspaul

What was the temp in your kitchen when the canner was depressurizing? I used to take my Mirro off the burner and let it sit. My kitchen (and house) was kept at 76F back then. It took about 15 mins to depressurize.

Kitchen temp was 77F. I depressurized from 17 psi and left the canner on the burner. The rate was close to linear.

Seventeen psi for forty minutes is 2.35 psi per minute or 23.5 minutes for 10 psi.

There is about a 6.5 minute difference between my Presto and macheske's 930. Leaving the Presto on the burner and the steam venting of the 930 below 5 psi probably explains the difference.

Zeuspaul

Do you really need to go to 17PSI?? Most canners only go to 15PSI max, and many canning recipies require a pressure at 10PSI. If my Presto was THAT high it might blow the safety.

OK, kiddo's, maybe I can shed some possible light on the depressurization thing.

I have recently bought a new pressure canner. It's much lighter in weight than my old one, which I bought at a garage sale many moons ago and is older than I am. And I was born in 1947. It is heavy cast aluminum and came with a book that talked about rationing.

The first thing I noticed is how much faster the pressure comes down on the new canner. So there could be your difference, in the kinds of canners you are using.

I, for one, have tried venting my old canner in an attempt to hurry things up, and the liquid boiled up out of the jars while they were still sealed up in the canner. It ruined the water that the jars were sitting in, and, while the jars still sealed, there was a lot less liquid in the jar and gave me a very poor product.

I've only been reading posts for the last couple of days, having found this particular forum while searching for a new pickle recipe. I find this forum to be, over all, very helpful. But, as an attorney boss I had one time told his partner, "Ilene just hates it when we argue." --Ilene

You should never remove the pressure manually in a canner. That is part of the processing time figured in.They will be underprocessed. Plus, it will cause the jars to have buckled lids with creases in them. They may not seal then, plus the liquid does siphon out.
There is a place somewhere that tells aprox. how long it takes for depressurization of a pressure canner.

***Do you really need to go to 17PSI?? ***

It was probably 15 psi. The gauge indicated 17 psi but it is an old gauge and the weight is supposed to set the pressure at 15 psi.

The weight on the All American 930 is 15 psi but the manual says steam is released at 17 psi.

It's hard to find info on the safety devices. I doubt they activate below 18 psi. Both of my canners have a caution range starting at 20 psi.

I timed the 930 last night. It took 60 minutes to depressurize. It was loaded with 14 quarts. The room temp was 80F. There was a little steam leakage around the rim at 15 psi. There was no leakage once the canner dropped below about 12 psi.

This time the Presto took 37 minutes to depressurize. It was probably a little faster than last time because it was on my propane stove setting on a grate. Air could circulate under the canner. Last time it was setting on the cast iron cover of the electric side burner.

21 quarts of tomato sauce in one setting is a record for me! I had about 10 quarts of tomato water which wouldn't fit in the canners. I froze four quarts in glass pint wide mouth jars as soup stock. I guess I'll make a bunch of soup today with the rest.

Zeuspaul

21 qts in one sitting! Holy smoke, that would be half my yearly needs for tom sauce. :) My Romas are just starting to show color now. Usually we have ripe toms by now. I believe it was our dreary drizzly cool spring that has them so slow.

greenhouser, btw, I BWB my toms because I don't feel the need to buy or use a pressure canner. I am happy enough canning only high-acid stuff. And the tomatoe products I want to make dont' take more than 40 minutes in BWB, which doesn't seem too long to me, and isn't much longer than it would take, according to my pressure-canning friends, by the time you get the pressure up to where you need it, then back down, etc.

To each his own!

Zabby

I'll most likely WB mine also since I wont be adding anything but toms (and the lemon juice) to the jars.

Citric is the other choice as its more acidic as to a reliable amount of acididty needed. If using lemon or other acid juices, be sure its a bottled product (UGH!) as these are usualy made from a concentrates and must adhere to strict guidelines as to the acid content. I have to say citric acid for me is much easier to deal with as its added at the time before the jars are filled, along with any necessary salt. This way, each jar gets the same dose and has the right ratio of it to begin with, even if the jars are mixed sizes to.

I have either called or been to every single store in two large towns. No one has citric acid and no one can order it for me, including Ace Hardware. They not only don't know what it is, but their co. doesn't stock it. No one even heard of it or Kosher "sour salt" which someone here said was the same thing. I have three choices. Can the toms as I did in the past with nothing. Can them with lemon juice which may ruin them, or order citric acid online paying a lot more, and having some problem as we usually do when ordering online sight-unseen. At the rate I'm going, each jar of tomatoes I can is going to cost me $10. :)

Kosher salt is courser grain salt, compared to pickling salt. 'Sour Salt' WASs sold by Durkee in tiny 1-2 ounce bottles, and is PURE CITRIC ACID. That was years ago, and they used it in cabbage cooking too. Don't know for sure, but I do think that MRs. Wages and/or Ball also offer their own versions, so if a store has Ball or Mrs. Wages products they would also offer te citric as an order, unles syou reach a person there that is so lazy they will not even make an affort. You can also use BOTTLED lemon juice, but again, it costs money!! Sour salt NOT the same as Kosher salt and even for that, Kosher will measure very differently in a pickle recipe. I have already supplied you with several links, and your only comment was its expensive to ship. Sorry, I only try to give you what you ask for, as you seem to shoot me down mostly, and continually bring up the lack of money. Doing virtually ANYTHING today can cost money at some point. YOu can just simply ignore all recipes that involve things that will cost you money to make, and only deal with things that are free. You said you have a budget, but that budget is now closed, and nothing I can say or help you with will change that issue..

Sour salt and citric acid are the same thing. There is no question about that. Health food stores carry citric acid. Have you checked them? And as I said in your other long thread, you are clearly shopping in the wrong stores for canning supplies but since we have no idea where you live, we can't direct you to the better stores. You'll have to find them yourself.

But if you can't find it or you don't want to spend the money on it and you don't want to order online - as you have made abundently clear - then just use the lemon juice. You have already made up your mind that it will "ruin your tomatoes" even though you have never even tried it. So even though you have no basis for that opinion, you'd likely say the same thing about citric acid if you ever got it. We can tell you till we are blue in the face that it won't but you won't agree and we just keep debating the same things over and over and over.

So, since it is clear that you don't wish to add either, don't. As we have all said several times, just skip it if you want. It's your risk to take. You don't seem to be inclined to believe us that it is needed anyway.

greenhouser - You are honestly making the whole process of home canning so complicated that it will never be any fun for you and that is sad because that is half the joy of doing it.

Dave

PS: I honestly cannot imagine how anyone could spend $300 on canning equipment even if they foolishly bought an All American pressure canner unless they have no idea how to comparison shop or are paying artificially inflated prices for things or buying equipment they really don't need. But it's your money.

After 2 failed attempts to order the Presto online (Amazon and Wal*Mart) I finally gave up and ordered it through a local Ace Hardware store = $109.00. 12 cases of canning jars at $7 to $9 each. Several boxes of flats = $5. The set of jar lifter, funnel for jars etc. = $8. Wire lift rack for canner = $8. $30 for one squeezer and $48+ for the Napa. Blanching basket = $7 or $8. Pickling salt, sugar, several bags Mrs Wagers pickle spices and B&B individual spices = $25+. Splenda for canning = $8, and that's just a partial list. $7 for the BBB I'm still waiting for. It keeps adding up. I just recently paid some medical bills my insurance didn't cover to the tune of $1,000.

I will gladly spend the money on Citric Acid if I can find it locally. Which health food stores carry it? We have all the major chains here.

The one place online that was recommended charged more to ship it than the cost of the product.

greenhouser, I found citric acid at my local grocery store, on the same aisle with the pectin and other canning supplies. It's Mrs. Wage's brand. I live in a really small town, but canning is very popular here. I'm really surprised that it's so hard to find in Middle TN. I'd think canning would be a popular activity in that part of the country.

Oddly enough, the thing I haven't been able to find is pickling spice. Who knew???

Oh, just a note on the Splenda...Walmart has a generic brand of Splenda called Altern. It's a bit cheaper than Splenda, but it's the same thing.

Willowdee, Make sure you look for Whole Mixed Pickling Spice.

You might try asking around your local farmer's market. I'd think that if anyone would know local sources for canning supplies it would be them. Or maybe they have customers who buy bulk for canning and could pass your contact info on to those customers. Who knows, there may even be a jelly/jam stall with someone willing to "bundle" an order of yours with their bulk orders. Of course, the classic "don't chat when they're busy trying to make money" rule applies.

And yes, the start up costs add up quickly. Some have luck getting jars and such on Freecycle or at garage sales and others don't. Perhaps posting a notice in grocery stores and the library would bring some contacts? If privacy/spam is an issue you could create a "canning only" email address for initial contact.

May not help but couldn't hurt. :)

willowdee: I'm in a part of TN that is rapidly changing. Farms are disappearing quickly as farm families sell out to builders of subdivisions, apartment complexes and huge Malls. As store managers have said to me in one store after another,"No one cans anymore. There's no call for canning supplies." Some stores carry jars and pickling spices but none had Citric Acid. The only things I found locally are jars and pickling spices, the jar lifter rack and the "kit" with the jar lifter, air remover, jar funnel etc. They're called "seasonal" items. They get them in once and that's it. If they sell them out the next canner is out of luck. The people moving in here now are 30 something Yuppies. The number of fast food restaurants outnumber the churches at this point. I myself don't know anyone who cans anymore. One woman canned until her kids left home some years ago, and promised me her jars. I haven't seen them yet.

whynotmi: The next time I see a farmer's market somewhere I'll ask. Most of the "farmers" are just people reselling the stuff they buy from wholesalers in Nashville... but I'll ask anyway. I already tried freecycle in two towns, the thrift shops, the local flea market, several Goodwill stores and every garage/yard sale I pass. One lady on Freecycle had 6 jars. It would have cost me more in gas to make the 24mi round-trip than the jars were worth. She lived way off the main road. Then today the last bill came from the medical clinic, another $80 my Ins didn't cover. At least I hope this is the last bill. :*(