It would depend. Some refrigerator pickles can harbor listeria. Normally pickles stored in the fridge are fermented ones. Otherwise you use a current safe recipe and make quick pack pickles.
Processing does not make them soft, contrary to some folks belief. It actually keeps them better because you destroy the enzymes when you process. It is the enzymes that can cause soft pickles.

Is listeria bacteria present in fresh cucumbers or is it something that develops during fermentaion? Could it develop in a non fermented pickle? If so, does it develop as a result of too little vinegar or too little salt?

Thanks for your help Linda Lou! I'm as green as cucumber when it comes to pickles. LOL

Listeria can be in the cukes but it is also widely distributed throughout the environment. The NCHFP article linked below gives you all the details on the problems associated with it.

While at the site you might want to review the current approved guidelines on Pickleing

Hope this helps. ;)

Dave

Here is a link that might be useful: Listeria monocytogenes survival in refrigerator dill pickles

Okay hear the ingredient ratio in the recipe.

4 cups vinegar
12 cups water
2/3 cup salt

I know this would not be enough vinegar in a processed pickle. The recipe calls for the brine to brought to a boil then poured over the cukes but no processing.

Would it be acceptable to use the above ingredient ratio, pour the boiling brine over the cukes then refrigerate?

In the "Two Cukes" thread Ken said you could place fresh cukes in a salt brine directly into the refrigerator adding a small amount of vinegar in a few days. This got me to thinking... could this be done with the above recipe?

My gut tells me no, it wouldn't be safe. The 12:4 ratio seems awfully low to me. But I freely admit upfront that I'm not comfortable with any unprocessed recipe so take what I say with 2/3 a cup of salt. ;)

Ken knows 50x more about pickling than I ever will so I'll defer to him and Linda Lou on this one. But I got to ask (like it my business or something ;) - why is converting this particular recipe vs. using a quick pack one so important?

Dave

Someone gave me this recipe and I really like the taste of the brine vs the 50/50 brine used in processed pickles.

No, not safe at those ratios. A 50% vinegar would be necessary, or just a small amount, at the end of a FULL fermentation in a salt water brine Fully fermented pickles in water and salt ONLY create lactic acid which can offer similar, but not the same acidity as a vinegar. Adding that small amount of vinegar would cause a poor and natural full fermentation. Listeria is quite low on the list of toxins that could survive. Either a higher vinegar/water ratio, or a full fermenation in salt and water. The recipe above is NOT 50% 50%, more like 70% water and 30% vinegar. A fermented pickle in a properly made salt brine will have taste similar to a vinegar based one, but uses the salt and water to cure them. Adding vinegar, even a small amount will help to slow down and stop the lactic acid creation. Once the reach that level, and you feel that its enough acidity, then you add the final vinegar and refrigerate.

My other numerous posts are about a HALF SOUR pickles. Made similar, but only allowed start a fermenting at room temps for a few days, then the TINY amount of vinegar is added, and then they get placed in the fridge. One item I forgot to mention about My half sours, is the fact that when I use part of a commercially made dill pickle mix, it may also contain a preservative 'of sorts', so it can also help with food dsafty. About all you will usually see on a very old (a year!) jar of fermented or partially fermented cukes is a bit of scum or white mold on top. Its a natural occurance and isn't poisonous. Its simply skimmed off and you rinse, then wipe off the cukes to serve. I am 'chomping at the bit' right now and and do hope my cukes start coming soon. A few dill heads are now at the browing stages so I want them to be picked before they drop the seeds..

Keep in mind also that a lot of those open kettle recipes being passed around are old. Ignoring for a moment the open kettle issue, many of the older recipes used much stronger vinegars, 10% strength or even more.

So part of the problem is that originally the ratio of water to vinegar MIGHT have been sufficient IF the vinegar were stronger than today's common 5%.

Old recipes can be a minefield.

I've attached a link to an NCHFP document on the issue of listeria in refrigerated dills. Note that it's a particular type of pickle that is the issue. In this case it's a low-acid pickle left at room temperature for 7 days then refrigerated. There are other high-acid refrigerator pickles that are fine. Also fine are fully-fermented products like sauerkraut and kimchee, which may be stored in the refrigerator after fermentation is complete.

Carol

Here is a link that might be useful: Listeria in Refrigerator Dill Pickles

We are basically advising that you do not make refrigerator pickles. Make a fully fermented one that is safe to follow, then keep in the fridge for the safe time listed in the recipe.
The most popular recipe is the Claussen type pickle.
They can also be processed after they are made for longer storage.

Linda Lou... your recipe says ready to eat in 10-11 days. Your pickle is considered FULLY FREMENTED... right!?! Does FULLY FERMENTED=FULL SOUR? Do your finished pickles have the PUCKER POWER that I've experienced in SOUR pickles. I sure hope not because I have a gallon on day 3 and I can't take those full blown SOUR pickles.

After some research on Listeria I understand that PARTIALLY FERMENTED pickles were the problem. The recipe in question was fermented 7 days right? At how many days is a pickle considered FULLY FERMENTED?

"Pucker" is made with a straight 5% or even higher white vinegar. The actual 'pucker' is from ading ALUM to the brine. These fully fermented pickles are cured in LACTIC acid that is created from the fermentation process. A really old style vinegar/sour pickle was usually made with 7% vinegar, a little Tumeric and alum, as well as pickling salt.

Thanks Ken! As I understand it a pickle is fully fermented at 10-11 days. Is that correct? From what you stated above I'm getting that fully fermented does not mean full sour. So Linda Lou's fermented dills would still be considered half sours?

It can take up to a month for a full ferment. Kind of like sourkraut. It can be a little less than 10 days for a full ferment too if its a warm location they are bubbling in. Kind of like a yeast in bread flour. No, Linda Lou's fully fermented pickles are still a salt based brine. A half sour is the same salt brine too, but only fermented about 2-4 days, then stopped by adding a tablespoon of vinegar to halt any further sourness. Oddly, my half sours after nearly a year in the fidge taste as if they had been made in a mild all vinegar brine. The lactic acid in the brine is created by the fermentation is the key. Acid is acid, and these two work quite well together. If you really want a truely sour pickle (like the deli's have), the only way is to use all vinegar, no fermenting needed, and the alum and salt. and wait a month or more before crunching one. They do get soft and mush fast though, so if the jar is small and kept cold, they should be fine for at least 6-10 months. The nice thing, if you want to, is the vinegar based sour pickles can be processed and canned asap, but will break down a little quicker. The Ball Pickle Crisp additive can help a bit too, but actually tames down the vinegar a little. Its a bit hard to find 7% acdiity vinegar. I had found 20%, but the shipping was outragous. I would suspect that AGAR (mentioned elsewhare) may offer such a 20% product from Heinz.