Freeze it. That is far too long to delay processing. It should go directly from boiling to jar to pre-heated processing canner.

Dave

I'd can it. I made beef stock yesterday, put in the refrigerator overnight, skimmed off the fat and canned it this morning.

I do agree that it's a long period of storage but since it's boiled before putting it into the jars, I still think it's OK as long as it's properly chilled and stored. I sure wouldn't try to make it last longer than that, though.

Annie

Depending on the temps in your fridge, it can remain safe for maybe 3-5 days. I keep my fridge very cold at 34-36 degrees at all times. Not much will spoil in a short time at that that temp. I also have a battery operated device that creates ozone inside my fridge. That helps to remove ethylene gas and any other mold causing issues.

Freeze it. Storing stock more than 2 days is unsafe. Too much bacteria will grow in that length of time. Not even boiling and canning will totally insure all the bacteria is destroyed. This is the same reason to always reprocess things within 24 hours of initial canning.

Ok, thanks, I think I will do that. I will freeze this batch, then I will order that element that Ken sent me a link to, so that I have it ready for next time.

2 days is awfully short!! If that were the actual case, more than 95% of the things stored in my fridge would have to be thrown out every other day! If the fridge temp is set at 34-36 degrees F it should be just fine for about 4-6 days. I have made pork fried rice a week ago stored in the fridge and also keep milk and juices in there, and none has spoiled unless I am in the hospial for 17 days like last summer. Years ago, a fridge couldn't even keep ice cream firm. They had tiny ice boxes and they were terrible in keeping things cold. All current fridges and freezers are able to keep things frozen and also keep refrigerator items quite cold. If its canned at a later date and its pressure canned, there would be nothing harmful left alive in that stock!

Linda Lou you're just too much at times!!

Ken you and Linda Lou are talking about 2 different things - food that is to be processed for long term storage vs. food normally stored in the fridge for normal consumption. So you can't compare the two with any degree of validity whatsoever.

Refrigeration does not prevent the growth of any bacteria, it merely slows it somewhat. Testing clearly shows that food that is packed and processed immediately contains far less bacteria than that left to sit in the refrigerator for even 24 hours before processing. And food left in the fridge grows bacteria exponentially each 24 hours it remains in the fridge.

Linda Lou is not making things up nor is she "too much". She is merely stating the accepted facts. 24 hrs. for re-processing is the accepted standard and has been for years. Just as immediate initial processing is also the accepted standard and always has been.

I must say I am very disheartened to find so many here (Roasted Tomato soup thread) that think it is fine to make the to-be-canned product, stick it in the fridge, and then process it at their convenience. One would be very hard put to find any approved recipe or guidelines that advocates that approach. Indeed you will consistently find the words "process immediately" in most all recipes.

If you want to can food for later consumption and do it safely then do it as the approved recipe specifies. If you don't then it becomes food for freezing or fresh consumption, not shelf storage.

How Canning Preserves Food

Ensuring Safe Canned Foods

Ensuring High Quality Canned Foods

Dave

I don't think "at their convenience" is safe, just within 24 hours. Same as reprocessing unsealed jars. And of course you need to return it to a hard boil in between, so that it's in the same state it was when you paused the preparation the day before.

For the stock, I think Saturday to Tuesday is too long, I would freeze it immediately, then thaw and can later (boiling for 10 minutes before canning).

Melissa

From the original post, I understood that the person wanted to refrigerate some chicken stock for a few days before canning. The stock was made by BOILING water and chicken parts. The solids get removed and the stock is placed in the fridge. Its not sitng out on a counter or does it have any added raw ingredinets Mine is usually jelly and I skim off any fat floating on the surface. Bringing the refrigerated stock back to a boil 3-5 days later, filling jars and processing is quite safe even after a 5 days in the fridge. The statemnts you mention are not exactly what the original poster asked. It doesn't matter if it were fresh, frozen or whatever, and its still safe to can in a pressure canner. Boiling and THEN PRESSURE CANNING it is the safest way to can stock. We are not dealing with 'REprocessing' anything. The use of current refrigeration is far more safe than say 25 years ago. Keep in mind that if you wanted to can swamp water, you could and it would be safe to drink provided it was canned in a pressure canner, except maybe its off color. I'm not saying swamp water is tasty or healthy looking, but once its gone through any kind of pressure canning process it has virtually no organic toxins alive in it. You can't get sick if you pressure canned liquid with the proper amount of heat and time in a pressure canner. Geez, maybe I should install some UV lighting, and highly filtered air here and convert my house in to an ultra clean room with secure air locks and special protective clothing just to get near a container of 'simple chicken stock'. The stuff you post seems to be a bit much, no matter what you say, and makes many new beginners a LOT more afraid of home canning ANYTHING. In this world we live in, we have developed some very powerful resistance to things that are considered contaminates or toxins. I still take most of the extreme precautions you and others preach with a grain of salt (pickling that is)!

Ever wach the Fox Reality channel and see the chef peeing in the soup, or sneezing into a customers dinner plate??

I have a bunch of cukes in the fridge and this batch will be sour pickles, VERY sour pickles with only salt and a dash of tumeric added along with some alum for the pucker. The vinegar will be higher than 5% too, so minimal canning heating will be done on them.

According to 'the' standards, after 5 days in the fridge, my cukes would be dangerous to make into pickles, and thats not from getting soft, but being infected with listeria and all sorts of poisons that are unhealthy. So I must throw out all my stuff after its been in my fridge for more than 2 days. Hmm, anyone want a few stale groceries unfit for human consumption?

No, Ken, I sure wouldn't want to touch food that has been stored that long. Take all the risks you wish, but I will teach others what is safe.
Pressure canning won't insure foods with bacteria will be safe. It is meant for fresh foods.
I am only stating the facts.... bacteria is merely slowed down in refrigeration, it still keeps growing.
There is enough bacteria within 2 or 3 days of storing stock to make a person sick. It doesn't take signs of spoilage to sicken someone. If you see spoilage it has been bad for some time.
So, the stock should be frozen and not processed at all, not even later. For safety reasons, it should just be frozen and used.
You can say I am too much, but I do have over 10 years of food safety training. Have had to study the different bacterias, what and how them make you sick, etc. If I wasn't up to date on things I would not be allowed to teach food preservation and food safety. Some information about the diseases from food can be found here :
http://www.fsis.usda.gov/Fact_Sheets/Foodborne_Illness_&_Disease_Fact_Sheets/index.asp
You can see on the USDA chart the storage time for broth is only 1 to 2 days.
Gravy and broth, patties, and nuggets 1-2 days
Sorry, but these are the facts.

Dave,glad you understand the facts on food safety. Thank you for your post.

Here is a link that might be useful: Food Safety from USDA.

So I should throw out ALL the stuff in the fridge and only buy enough for a single day. After a single day, I have to throw it all out again.

What a waste, no matter how you say it. I do not know of any kind of LIVING contaminates, toxins, spores, fungus, botulism, listeria, salmonella, or any other health issues when a product is pressure canned using the proper time and pressure. Never heard of any contaminates that can survive over 220 degrees, which pressure canning can do with ease. Unless your talking about things like lead and mercury. Your just beating a dead horse and trying to intimidate the crowd here who want to learn the basics, but directing everyone to your 'favorite' rant the USDA site. The home canning followng basilc acid rules and heat processes is quite simple basics, and have been safe for many years. USDA is not 'god almighty', nor do they even know how to properly test many things used today. How about the wonderful 'DDT' approved by the USDA many years ago, and that wonder mineral 'asbestos' that was added to baby powder and all break pads in cars. My parents summer cottage still has Johns & Mansville vinyl asbestos floor tile!

You can have 60 years of canning training and experience, but it still doesn't give you the right to boast and tout your abilities and be the 'mouthpiece' to the USDA and their poorly documented standards and very limited testing. Fact sheets are also things that might help to answer a few basic questions, but the bottom line is we are dealing with high acid products, and pressure canning. Both of which are high on the safety 'fact sheets'. Facts are only part what a person decides to call them as being safe or not safe, nothing else. Now I bet your going to say I must throw out all the stuff in my freezers after less than 6 months. If I were to do that, I would expect at least $3500 to be lost in the garbage.

I really would like a direct quote where the NCHFP, the USDA or any other reputable source says that food pressure-canned after sitting in the refrigerator more than 24 hours is unsafe or even higher-risk.

I have read a number of statements from the USDA manual and the NCHFP. I see that food which has been unsuccessfully processed should be reprocessed within 24 hours. Understood that a low-acid product in anaerobic conditions left at room temperature needs to be re-processed within a limited span to prevent the growth of additional spoilage organisms.

I have also read a number of recommendations that food should be processed within 12-24 hours for freshness and quality. Also understood. As canning is not necessarily the most economical option, why else would we can food if not for superior quality and nutrition? Who would want to process an inferior product?

I do not see any statement that failing to can refrigerated foods within 24 hours puts one at risk. Would I keep chicken stock longer and delay canning it? No, because if I go to the trouble of making stock from scratch, I wish to preserve it at its very best.

But if bringing stock to a boil and canning it at the recommended time and pressure is sufficient to kill potential botulism spores, then what is left to cause health problems? Are you claiming that after, say, 48 hours in the refrigerator, bringing the stock to a boil and processing it as recommended is now somehow insufficient to kill botulism? Please tell me how.

More botulism spores? Is there a tipping point beyond which pressure canning no longer works? Or is there some bacteria more powerful than botulism we need to worry about?

I have yet to see a specific statement which supports this recommendation or any scientific proof.

I am in support of safety and quality. But I am not in support of unverified claims. I am looking for relevant citations.

Carol

I seldom disagree with Linda Lou, but you knew it was bound to happen, LOL. I also don't see any way that processing stock that's 24 or 48 hours old at the recommended guidelines could possibly be unsafe and I can't find one darned thing that tells me it is.

Since I work 60 hours or so a week at the job that supports my farming habit, it is simply not possible sometimes for me to go home, make stock and can it the same evening. I have to make it one night, can it the next. I do that anyway because I like the fat to rise to the top and congeal so that I can remove it.

My extension service has told me more than once that this procedure is perfectly safe, whether the broth is beef or chicken as long as I process it at the appropriate pressure for the appropriate amount of time.

Now, I don't leave things sitting around for days and then can it because of the quality issues as cited. Plus, I just don't have the refrigerator room to store it longer.

That's a big problem I have with the USDA. They will say something is "not recommended" but they don't differentiate between a safety issue and a quality issue. As an example, for a couple of years there were no directions in the Ball Blue Book for canning rutabagas and turnips. They become strong and discolor when canned, a quality issue but not a safety issue. I canned them anyway, I don't mind the stronger flavor. Apparently a lot of other people agree because I see that the instructions are back. When I sent an email asking about it, I was told that there were a lot of people asking about those items and so the instructions were included again in the lastest volume. They were safe all along.

However, I do think that Ken and Linda Lou are not talking about the same thing. Storing food for daily use is completely different than storing it for canning purposes. Heck, a lot of things we store as leftovers for eating later can't even be canned at all, that's a completely different subject.

Annie

Not to hijack Susan's thread any more than we already have but if I may, unlike most other recipes which stipulate "process immediately", stock recipes include a provision for cooling to skim fat.

Granted they do not specify a time limit on the "cooling" period so in theory one could argue that only a couple of hours in the fridge is sufficient or that overnight might be acceptable. But Susan asked if she could wait from Saturday to Tuesday. Not 12, not 24 but 72-96 hours. I never imagined that anyone here would consider 72-96 hours a safe time to wait on processing chicken stock (or any food for that matter! So she was advised to freeze it and I'm happy she chose to follow that advise.

Thanks for bearing with us Susan. :)

As to the issue of delayed processing in general.

We spend so much time and effort here encouraging folks to use only safe, tested, approved recipes for their canning. But then are we to say "but it's ok to ignore the part of the recipes that says process immediately if it isn't convenient"? "You don't really have to do that part - just stick it in the fridge and it will be fine until you have time to process it". Surely that undermines the most important part of home food preservation - the part that makes it preserved - the processing.

Everyone knows that food continues to spoil even in a refrigerator and most don't have their fridge set at 34 and wouldn't think to do it. But regardless of temp, unless below freezing, bacterial growth is an ongoing process that we can only slow, never stop. Food doesn't just suddenly kick start all the bacteria and go bad. It is slowly spoiling all along.

Per Ensuring Safe Canned Foods linked above:

Botulisum spores are on most fresh food surfaces. Because they grow only in the absence of air, they are harmless on fresh foods. Most bacteria, yeasts, and molds are difficult to remove from food surfaces. Washing fresh food reduces their numbers only slightly. Peeling root crops, underground stem crops, and tomatoes reduces their numbers greatly. Blanching also helps, but the vital controls are the method of canning and making sure the recommended research-based process times, found in these guides, are used. Embolding is mine.

So now you have washed your food, peeled it etc. and the bacteria are still there. Chop it all up, put in the pot and cook it as the recipe calls for, but the spores are still there. Put it in the fridge to process later, and they are still there. Only now they are all mixed into the foods and have a nice soupy anaerobic environment to grow and reproduce in. The tested recipe may have had 10 spores per 1000 parts to be killed by the processing time allotted. You may easily now have, due to the delay, 50 spores per 1000 parts plus toxins to destroy but are using the same allotted time.

It is The processing times in these guides [that] ensure destruction of the largest expected number of heat-resistant microorganisms in home-canned foods. Properly sterilized canned food will be free of spoilage....

Food Acidity and Processing Methods

Botulinum spores are very hard to destroy at boiling-water temperatures; (note that boiling food hasn't killed the spores or bacteria only any toxins they may have produced so now you are going to put that food into the fridge with any spores in it still alive) the higher the canner temperature, the more easily they are destroyed. Therefore, all low-acid foods should be sterilized at temperatures of 240 to 250° F, attainable with pressure canners operated at 10 to 15 PSIG. At temperatures of 240° to 250° F, the time needed to destroy bacteria in low-acid canned food ranges from 20 to 100 minutes. The exact time depends on the kind of food being canned, the way it is packed into jars, and the size of jars. The time needed to safely process low-acid foods in a boiling-water canner ranges from 7 to 11 hours; the time needed to process acid foods in boiling water varies from 5 to 85 minutes.

http://www.uga.edu/nchfp/publications/usda/utah_can_guide_01.pdf

Draw your own conclusions. Delayed processing, be it BWB or pressure canning, except in those recipes where it is allowed, is done so at your own risk.

Of course I understand the limitations of time and the many other demands placed on all of us at times. And sure, at times compromises have to be made. But please be very sure that the compromise in safety you may be making but delaying the processing is worth it.

Dave

Well, I feel like I "stirred the pot" with my question ;)

I did appreciate reading the differing points of view from everyone. I read this board a lot, and I learn a lot here. I am looking forward to getting my independent burner and finally getting to use my pressure canner, since I'm almost over my nervousness about it.

Put it in the fridge to process later, and they are still there. Only now they are all mixed into the foods and have a nice soupy anaerobic environment to grow and reproduce in.

Putting food into the refrigerator even in a covered bowl is not putting it in an "anerobic environment." A jar of food which has been canned and in which the air has been expelled is an anerobic environment. No refrigerator I know of is oxygen-free. Nor, if we're speaking of botulism spores, are they fond of cold.

So I am going to return to what I asked originally. I still am not seeing credible relevant evidence that interrupting the canning process by refrigeration for a reasonable period of time is unsafe.

Nor have I seen evidence that there is a tipping point beyond which botulism spores will not be destroyed by pressure canning the recommended time because there's too many of them. If a temperature and duration is sufficient to kill one spore, then it should be sufficient to kill any number.

It comes back to my original question. Where in the USDA does it specifically say you can't refrigerate and that increases danger? So far the quotes that have been cited are subsidiary and only marginally relevant.

Without sound data, I remain unconvinced. I will cook and peel beets then refrigerate to pickle the next day. I will certainly thoroughly chill and skim stock a day ahead of processing.

I want to clarify once more that I am not arguing in favor of putting stock in the fridge on Saturday and canning it on Tuesday. I never said I was in favor of that.

Nor am I criticizing the USDA or the NCHFP. They do excellent work.
Carol

On all of this about safety, I did some pickles with a Ball pickle mix and put them into the fridge about 10 days ago. My kids have eaten some and I noticed they didn't have as much of a vinegar taste as the Ms. Wages did. Are these safe or should they be thrown away due to listeria? I followed the recipe on the Ball but know I'm thinking they should have been processed. Imput please. Not to stir thr pot more, but sometimes all this talk does make me worried thatI am going to make a silly mistake and make my family ill or God forbid kill them. But I do feel good when I can present them a product which I have grown myself and made with love.

If it was made from a Ball recipe that is in the CURRENT canning book, it should be OK. Keep in mind that some of Mrs. Wages mixes also adds a little citric acid. Vinegar 'taste', do you mean the flavor of the dill? Ball mixes seem to have added sugar even though they are for a dill pickle. You can pour out some of the brine and replace it with undiluted vinegar to help increase acidity. We can't tell what your recipe has for a water to vinegar ratio. The Mrs. Wages mixes usually say to add water and vinegar, but I don't add any water at all. My higher acid safety is much more reliable. The govt tests were done by innoculating cukes with listeria bacteria prior to brining. I don't think 100% of all home grown cukes contain deadly amounts of listeria.

See, now comes te fear and concern, which in many cases just seems to make more people afraid to take any chances. You can die if hit by a car, or a plane crashes into your house, but the law of averages is very low, even for something not common.

I think that the opposition will say to throw them out, without any regard to whether they are safe or not.

Another way to reduce any issues as to acidity is to get some 20% vinegar and added to that instead of the 5%, when you pour off some excess brine. It would surely be quite safe.

I feel the same way as Carol - we haven't seen a citation from a credible source that specifically addresses "pausing" a recipe with refrigeration.

I interpret "process immediately" to mean 'fill the jars while the product is just off the boil and put them straight into the canner'. I think if you refrigerate the product overnight, then bring it back to a full boil, you are returning it to the same state and can "process immediately" from the boil at that time.

But I don't remember seeing that exact phrase anyway...which recipes is it in?

Melissa

gardener1908 - yeah the Ball Pickle Mixes are fine to use but they do taste different than the Mrs. Wages. I've used them several times when the Mrs. Wages was sold out.

They too contain citric acid but have more sugar in them. But like Ken said you can always add more vinegar to taste if you wish.

Do have a pack here right now to check but like Mrs. Wages the label says something like "if not processed or if processed but jar does not seal, refrigerate and consume within 2 weeks".

Dave

Thanks Dave & Ken, I made these and put them straight into the fridge, so I will make sure they are eaten soon.

First, I want to state that I have no intention of ever making pickles with a mix but that answers a question that popped into my head last night. I was opening a new box of lids and the "recipe" on the back was for pickles. Just the mix and cucumbers, no vinegar. I was wondering how in the world that would work, so now I know.

I agree with Carol and with Melissa, I haven't seen any credible source that addresses the issue of refrigerating an item overnight or longer. In addition to stock (which is in my refrigerator right now and will be canned tonight, well within 24 hours but still..) I also cook and peel beets for pickled beets or for pressure canning. I even macerate fruit for jam for two or three days, depending on the recipe.

As Carol pointed out, the refrigerator is not an anaerobic environment, not even in a sealed Tupperware container or whatever. You have to expel the oxygen and seal the container to create that environment, so that argument is moot.

In addition, if 10 botulism spores are destroyed by pressure canning then why aren't 1000 destroyed by pressure canning? That's why we have those guidelines for processing, it's the point at which the organisms are destroyed, so "more organisms" is also an irrelevant argument.

So, if the stock isn't spoiled, as evidenced by the people saying "freeze it", why can't it be safely pressure canned?

One of the direct quotes above is:

The processing times in these guides [that] ensure destruction of the largest expected number of heat-resistant microorganisms in home-canned foods. Properly sterilized canned food will be free of spoilage....

OK, so if I process the food properly, according to the guidelines, and it isn't spoiled, it's fine, at least that's my interpretation. "the processing times ensure destruction of the largest expected number of heatresistant microorganizms". It doesn't say it destroys some, or enough to reach a specific level, it says it destroys them. If the "expected number" in a product is destroyed, then they are destroyed.

I tend to be extremely careful when I can, using high quality produce, an impeccably clean kitchen and I probably actually over process many items. I don't see any reason to make more rules, however, when the rules that exist are sufficient to keep us safe. I do realize that the USDA guidelines are developed using the lowest common denominator, that is the person in the dirtiest kitchen making every mistake possible and that's because of the liability factor. I'm glad they've done that and given us guidelines for safe procedures but those guidelines were either written by or reviewed by the government lawyers because of those liability issues. Having spent 30 years interpreting "legalese" I've learned to read and interpret exactly what's written, and not read anything into it that isn't specifically spelled out. If if it were an issue, it WOULD be spelled out because that's the way our government works.

Annie

I've read all this through carefully and I still haven't seen any factual information that says, or even suggests, that stock cooked on Saturday and canned on Tuesday (if stored in a properly cooled fridge in between) would be any less likley to be safe than if it had been canned on Sunday.

I appreciate your looking for info and posting quotes, Dave, but none of them relate to the question Susan posed. They talk about CANNING METHOD and PROCESSING TIMES --- neither of which is the issue here. Susan clearly plans to pressure can and follow the recommended processing time.

I'm not criticizing the USDA or NCHFP either, nor anyone here --- it's clear everyone's intentions are good. But if Linda Lou or anyone knows what illness-inducing bacteria might be growing in those few days in the fridge that would NOT be killed by pressure canning for the recommended time, I'd really like to know what it is and what illness it induces.

Now, the real question is, since it looks like Susan lives in Ontario like me, when am I coming over to try some soup made from her delicious-sounding stock, however she chooses to preserve it??? Most years I'd offer to trade for tomato products, Susan, but my poor chilled & waterlogged garden this year is barely producing enough for salads; I haven't canned any salsa at all yet, sniff!

Anyway, good luck to my fellow Ontarian, Susan, with your new pressure canner! Are you in Toronto area? I'm about 2 hours east of there.

Zabby

My original purpose was not to take on the world or to critique anyone's methods. Your methods are your choice, as always. Advocating those methods to others when they deviate from the accepted norm is often another matter.

My goal was only to reiterate what is taught in the certified classes and those teachings are based on the credible references listed above. Refresher courses are wonderful things, if only to point out to us the bad habits we may have picked up over the years. But it wasn't me that took us off on this tangent from the original question - a review of the initial posts proves that - so please don't lay this trip through the mine field on me. ;)

I'm sure there are all sorts of scientific studies out there on bacterial growth rates in a refrigerated environment etc. but if we follow the approved instructions then we don't need to dig them up - USDA/NCHFP has already done that for us.

I did not say that a fridge was an anaerobic environment, obviously it isn't. What I said was that any spores contained in a soupy mixture may be in an anaerobic environment - submerged in a thickened liquid in which - tests show - the O2 levels are sharply reduced. Entirely different thing.

As to the # of spores killed by processing, as explained in the linked documents, the times given to us were determined based on testing to determine how long it takes to kill X number of spores (the average number found in a properly processed food). Those times do not allow for the killing of large numbers of additional spores. Basic law of physics - impact dilutes as numbers impacted increases. What kills 10 does not kill 1000 - as the contamination increases exponentially, so must the processing time.

Obviously some foods are safer than others when it comes to staging your preparation over days rather than hours. Just as obviously, some foods are quite risky when processing is delayed. When in doubt the safest solution is to follow the approved instructions.

So I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on this particular issue. Hope there are no hard feelings - none were intended.

Dave